Before
THE TOBYHANNA TOWNSHIP BOARD OF SUPERVISORS
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In Re: Regular Business Meeting
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Tobyhanna Township Government Center Building
State Avenue
Pocono Pines, Pennsylvania 18350
Monday, May 11, 2009, beginning at 7:04 p.m.
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PRESENT: JOHN E. KERRICK, Chairperson
HEIDI A. PICKARD, Vice-Chairperson
JAMIE B. KEENER, Board Member
ANNE LAMBERTON, Board Member
DONALD MOYER, Board Member
PATRICK M. ARMSTRONG, ESQUIRE,
Solicitor
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__________________________________________________
PANKO REPORTING
537 Sarah Street, 2nd Floor
Stroudsburg, Pennsylvania 18360
(570) 421-3620
2
1 MR. KERRICK: I'd like to welcome
2 everyone here this evening. First order of business, the
3 pledge of allegiance.
4 (Pledge of allegiance was recited.)
5 MR. KERRICK: Do we have any
6 announcements?
7 MS. PICKARD: No.
8 MR. KERRICK: First order of business,
9 consider the minutes of March 9, 2009, regular business
10 meeting.
11 MS. PICKARD: I make a motion we
12 approve the March 9, 2009 regular business meeting. I do
13 have one correction on that. On Page 51, Line 18, it says
14 overing, it should just be evening.
15 MR. MOYER: Second.
16 MR. KERRICK: Motion and second with
17 the correction.
18 Any questions or comments from the
19 board?
20 Questions or comments from the public
21 on the motion?
22 Call the vote.
23 Jamie?
24 MR. KEENER: I vote in favor.
25 MR. KERRICK: Anne?
3
1 MS. LAMBERTON: I'm going to abstain.
2 MR. KERRICK: Donny?
3 MR. MOYER: I vote in favor.
4 MR. KERRICK: Heidi?
5 MS. PICKARD: I vote in favor.
6 MR. KERRICK: I'll vote in favor.
7 Next item on the agenda, May 4, 2009
8 special meeting. We have a motion to approve?
9 MS. PICKARD: I'll make a motion that
10 we approve the special meeting minutes of May, 4 2009.
11 MR. KEENER: Second.
12 MR. KERRICK: Motion and second.
13 Questions or comments from the board?
14 Questions or comments from the public
15 on the motion?
16 Call the vote.
17 Jamie?
18 MR. KEENER: I vote in favor.
19 MR. KERRICK: Anne?
20 MS. LAMBERTON: Abstain.
21 MR. KERRICK: Donny?
22 MR. MOYER: I vote in favor.
23 MR. KERRICK: Heidi?
24 MS. PICKARD: I vote in favor.
25 MR. KERRICK: I'll vote in favor.
4
1 Motion carried.
2 Next item on our agenda, consider the
3 treasury report, total amount for board approval,
4 $218,693.81.
5 MS. PICKARD: I'd like to make a
6 motion that we approve the May 11 bill pack with the
7 addition of another bill that was delinquent that we just
8 received a copy of, from Entech Engineering, which would
9 make that a total total of $218,921.56.
10 MR. KERRICK: How many cents?
11 MS. PICKARD: Fifty-six
12 MR. KERRICK: Fifty-six.
13 Motion on the floor.
14 Do we have a second?
15 MR. KEENER: Second.
16 MR. KERRICK: Questions or comments on
17 the motion?
18 MR. KEENER: Yeah. Is that Borton
19 Lawson payment -- where are we at with those GIS
20 revisions? We completed with those updates? Or is
21 that --
22 MR. KERRICK: He had -- he had some
23 more to do last I heard. I haven't heard any more.
24 MS. PICKARD: They had sent some
25 corrections up. I think there were a couple things still
5
1 remaining.
2 MR. KEENER: Okay.
3 MR. KERRICK: Any other questions or
4 comments?
5 Questions or comments from the public?
6 Call the vote.
7 Jamie?
8 MR. KEENER: I vote in favor.
9 MR. KERRICK: Anne?
10 MS. LAMBERTON: I'll vote in favor.
11 MR. KERRICK: Donny?
12 MR. MOYER: I vote in favor.
13 MR. KERRICK: Heidi?
14 MS. PICKARD: I vote in favor.
15 MR. KERRICK: I'll vote in favor.
16 Motion carried.
17 Next item on our agenda, we have a
18 resolution for Hugh Lamberton.
19 Hugh, here somewhere? Would you come
20 forward, please?
21 A resolution of the Township of
22 Tobyhanna Board of Supervisors recognizing Hugh Lamberton
23 for his years of service as a member of the board of
24 supervisors; whereas Hugh Lamberton has served as township
25 supervisor for the Township of Tobyhanna, Monroe County,
6
1 Pennsylvania; and whereas Hugh Lamberton has served as a
2 member of the board during his first four year term,
3 January 2002 through January 2006.
4 And whereas Hugh Lamberton was elected
5 to a six year term from January 2006 to January 2012; and
6 whereas Hugh Lamberton desired to bring about changes to
7 the township as he deemed necessary to improve quality of
8 life for the residents; and whereas Hugh Lamberton showed
9 dedication in serving our community by his involvement
10 with the Clymer Library and open space program.
11 The township recognizes Hugh Lamberton
12 for his giving -- for giving his time, knowledge and
13 expertise, especially in achieving the goals set forth by
14 the Top of the Mountain Open Space Program.
15 Now, therefore, be it resolved that
16 the township board of supervisors presents this resolution
17 to Hugh Lamberton in recognition for his service of
18 Tobyhanna Township.
19 Hugh, thank you very much.
20 (Applause.)
21 MR. KERRICK: Hugh, thank you.
22 MR. LAMBERTON: Thank you so much.
23 MR. KERRICK: Thank you.
24 We appreciate working with you, Hugh.
25 MS. PICKARD: Hugh?
7
1 MR. KEENER: Stand up here, we'll get
2 a --
3 MS. PICKARD: Turn around, let Jamie
4 take the picture.
5 MR. KERRICK: You want to announce
6 that now --
7 MR. MOYER: Yeah.
8 MR. KERRICK: -- thing? Can we all
9 get in here?
10 Stand up, Heidi.
11 MR. KEENER: Are you sure it's --
12 MR. MOYER: It's the button.
13 MR. KEENER: Yeah, I know it's the
14 button.
15 MR. LAMBERTON: The red button.
16 MR. KEENER: I don't see it on the
17 screen. Supposed to be on auto, Heidi?
18 MS. PICKARD: Yeah.
19 MALE VOICE: So easy a child can do
20 it.
21 MALE VOICE: What, you're an engineer?
22 MR. KEENER: No, I'm a planner,
23 actually. An engineer would have it figured out. See if
24 that works. It's good.
25 MR. KERRICK: Thank you.
8
1 (Applause.)
2 Next order of business, solicitor's
3 report. You want to take it from here, Pat?
4 MR. ARMSTRONG: Sure. There's three
5 ordinances that have been advertised this evening for a
6 public hearing. We'll start with the first one on the
7 agenda, which is the Pocono Manor rezoning ordinance.
8 This is an ordinance that initially began and was
9 considered by the township back in August of 2008,
10 subsequent to the property owner petitioning the township
11 to consider rezoning certain parcels of their property.
12 As a result of that petition, this
13 board held a public hearing in October of 2008 to consider
14 that petition, which requested the board of supervisors to
15 consider rezoning two parcels of their property, one from
16 the CI district to the commercial district, and the other
17 from the RR district to the C commercial district.
18 As a result of that public hearing,
19 this board reviewed its comprehensive plan, the
20 neighboring zoning districts of the neighboring parcel
21 number -- or tax map parcels and property parcels within
22 the township. We also considered the neighboring township
23 zoning districts abutting the properties; and as a result,
24 the township authorized the preparation of a zoning
25 ordinance amendment rezoning not both of the requested
9
1 parcels, but the RR parcel to be rezoned commercial. That
2 ordinance was scheduled for a public hearing back in --
3 just bear with me. The first public hearing was scheduled
4 to be held on March 9, 2009. The board did hold that
5 public hearing pursuant to public notice. It was
6 advertised in the Pocono Record twice, once on February 23
7 and the next date on March 20 -- or March 2, 2009.
8 As a result of that public hearing,
9 there were members from the public that showed up, had a
10 number of public comment with respect to the ordinance and
11 the board of supervisors did not take action on the
12 proposed rezoning amendment at that time. And subsequent
13 to that, there -- it has been discussed by the board of
14 supervisors and the residents at public meetings since
15 that time.
16 And this ordinance has again been
17 scheduled for a public hearing this evening for the
18 rezoning of the RR parcel to be rezoned to a C commercial
19 parcel. That tax map parcel number is 19111902, PIN No.
20 19634400958628, which consists of approximately 193 acres
21 that is currently zoned RR rural residential. And the
22 proposed ordinance will rezone that parcel to C commercial
23 pursuant to the ordinance that's been advertised twice now
24 for a public hearing.
25 I will note before we get started, if
10
1 there's anyone from the public here that wants to make any
2 kind of public comment with respect to this proposed
3 rezoning ordinance, there was a sheet. It'll help the
4 court stenographer to take down everyone's name and
5 addresses. I think it started circulating, I'm not sure
6 where it's at. But if you do want to make some kind of
7 public comment, please provide your name and address on
8 that form.
9 So that's a little bit of the history
10 of the ordinance and, like I said, it is a rezoning
11 ordinance that will amend the current township zoning map,
12 that particular parcel that was identified before, and
13 also in the legal notice, as well as the ordinance itself,
14 from RR to commercial. It's been advertised in the Pocono
15 Record for a public hearing this evening twice, once on
16 April 27 and again on May 4, 2009, pursuant to the
17 Pennsylvania Municipality Planning Code.
18 It's also been -- the property has
19 been posted. It was posted pursuant to a certification
20 from the township zoning officer. It was posted on April
21 22, 2009, and the proposed ordinance was further forwarded
22 to the Monroe County Planning Commission. It was
23 forwarded on February 12, 2009 -- or it was forwarded
24 prior to that. The Monroe County Planning Commission
25 provided a review letter, or a review comment letter, on
11
1 the proposed ordinance that's dated February 12, 2009.
2 And in that letter they provide -- the county planning
3 commission provides comments and it also indicates that
4 they would recommend that the proposed amendments be
5 adopted subject to the comments within the county's
6 letter.
7 It was also -- the proposed ordinance
8 was also forwarded to the township planning commission,
9 and the township planning commission also recommended the
10 adoption of this proposed ordinance, and it has been
11 before you before. It's been advertised for a public
12 hearing.
13 With now that being said, are there
14 any comments from the board on this particular ordinance
15 at this time? Seeing none, it is a public hearing, I
16 think if there's a way to -- do we have the ordinance on
17 that computer? Is that why it's there?
18 MS. PICKARD: Yeah, it was there.
19 MR. ARMSTRONG: If anyone -- if anyone
20 needs a copy of the ordinance or the actual parcels that
21 are being rezoned, I have a paper copy up here. I don't
22 know if there's a way to provide a larger copy, but just a
23 very quick description of the property. It -- to the
24 north -- it's on the -- it's adjacent to the Tobyhanna
25 Township and Pocono Township boundary line. And to the
12
1 east of the property is Pocono Township and then to the
2 north of the property is zoned C commercial currently. It
3 looks like it borders Interstate 380, and then to the
4 northwest of the property looks like it's zoned C
5 commercial, and to the south of the property is currently
6 zoned R-2.
7 So it has been advertised for a public
8 hearing at this time. I'll open it up to the public if
9 there's any public comment. I'm assuming there are some
10 comments.
11 Yes?
12 MR. MARC WOLFE: Mr. Armstrong,
13 although we testified at the March hearing, I believe
14 Pocono Manor, through Mr. Cahill, would like to testify
15 again. And I think that procedurally it may be beneficial
16 to start with Mr. Cahill's presentation as to the reasons
17 why Pocono Manor is seeking this amendment.
18 And in that regard, if the board is
19 willing to allow Mr. Cahill to proceed first, for members
20 of the public who are here, I think it will be beneficial
21 to the board and to Pocono Manor for those individuals
22 wanting to speak to identify themselves and their address
23 and particularly the township in which they reside.
24 During one of the last sessions, which
25 may not have been one of the last hearings, individuals
13
1 from Pocono Township were here who may not have owned
2 property in Tobyhanna Township and may not have had
3 appropriate standing to participate before this township
4 board of supervisors. So we would like to have the
5 members of the public identify where they're residing so
6 we can locate their property in relationship to the
7 property that is subject of the action postordinance, and
8 we think that would be beneficial to everyone in the room.
9 MR. ARMSTRONG: As Mr. Wolfe has said,
10 it looks like the property owner is here this evening, of
11 the property that's proposed to be rezoned. I have no
12 problem with the property owner going first with respect
13 to public comment. We will, regardless -- whoever takes
14 part in this public hearing, identify yourself and your
15 address and the township you live in. Regardless of the
16 township you live in, we will still listen to you. We'll
17 take, you know, your comments under advisement as they --
18 as the board seems fit.
19 I think given the amount of people
20 here tonight and the hour at hand, I don't know if the
21 board wants to limit certain public comment to a certain
22 amount of time at this point or go through the meeting and
23 see how smoothly we're moving.
24 MR. MOYER: Try and keep it brief as
25 they can.
14
1 MR. ARMSTRONG: Just try to keep it
2 brief? Okay.
3 MR. MOYER: Get the point across,
4 so --
5 MR. MARC WOLFE: Mr. Cahill would
6 request approximately 10 minutes to lay out the rationale
7 for the request.
8 MR. ARMSTRONG: Okay.
9 MR. JAMES CAHILL: For the record, my
10 name is Jim Cahill, or James M. Cahill. I'm the managing
11 partner, Pocono Manor investors. We are the owners of the
12 property. And at the meeting in October, we gave a
13 presentation as part of that public hearing which went
14 through the property, and I understand a lot of the people
15 from the public weren't here then, so -- we didn't do that
16 again on March 9; so I'm going to take about five minutes
17 and orientate -- or orientate everyone to the property,
18 and then talk about the rezoning for about five minutes.
19 I'll try to be brief.
20 So this is a map that's probably
21 getting pretty dog-eared by these days. It's left over
22 from the casino application and presentation days. All of
23 the property that's shaded on the map is property owned by
24 Pocono Manor Investors.
25 Pocono Manor is approximately 3,000
15
1 acres in size and for way of orientation, this is Route 80
2 down here, this is Interstate Route 380, this is Route
3 940, and this is Route 314, which runs down through our
4 property.
5 The Pocono Manor property itself is
6 located in three municipalities. Those municipalities
7 are -- everything north of this line is Mount Pocono
8 Borough, the main body of the site is located in Pocono
9 Township, and this is the boundary line between Pocono
10 Township and Tobyhanna Township, and the property to the
11 west of this line is in Tobyhanna Township.
12 The property has been an operating
13 resort since 1902. Currently, for way of orientation, the
14 main entrance off 314 is approximately in here; and if you
15 were to extend the drive down Manor Drive, you would come
16 to the inn itself, which is situated in this portion of
17 the property.
18 There's many land uses on the property
19 that some have been historical and there for long time;
20 some are more recent. Of those historic uses we have two
21 18 hole golf courses. We have historic east course and a
22 west course that's located in this area. We have an
23 indoor tennis pavilion, which is located in this area. We
24 have horseback riding. The barn is located in this area.
25 And they use trails and everything down along Swiftwater
16
1 Creek and around parts of the west golf course for their
2 activities.
3 There's shooting, hunting and fishing
4 activity on the property. Hunting and fishing, of course,
5 is seasonal. Most of the fishing occurs in Swiftwater
6 Creek, which runs down through the center of our property.
7 Hunting, of course, is seasonal. There are three shooting
8 operations on the property. There is a track range
9 located in this area, a Five Stand right behind it, and
10 then there is a sporting clay range which is located
11 primarily in Tobyhanna, but some of -- a small part of it
12 is also located in Pocono Township in this area.
13 We have a spa facility on the site.
14 We have dog sledding in the winter. We have cross country
15 skiing in the winter; ice skating on the property. We
16 have ATV tours and an ATV park. The ATV tours start in
17 this area. If you're familiar with the property, it's
18 next to the tennis facility, and they go down and
19 primarily go along Swiftwater Creek down through this area
20 and come back up. The A TV park, essentially, is the back
21 mountain portion of our property, which is primarily
22 through this area.
23 We also have mountain biking and
24 hiking, and there are two mining operations on the site.
25 One is on the area -- on the property that we'll be
17
1 talking about tonight that we're asking for the rezoning.
2 It's an old borrow pit that was started when Route 380 and
3 Route 80 were built many years ago, and it continues in
4 operation today. The other is a shale pit, which is
5 located down in this area, and that also has an active
6 mining permit, but we're not actively mining it at this
7 time.
8 Existing zoning, in Mount Pocono
9 Borough, on this side of Fairview Avenue, we're rezoned
10 residential. On the northwest side of Fairview Avenue,
11 that is zoned industrial. All of our property in Pocono
12 Township is zoned resort, which allows for various uses,
13 all with a resort theme including some commercial
14 development and some residential development.
15 In Tobyhanna Township, our property
16 is -- we have four different zones. This small triangle
17 is zoned CI, which is north of Route 314, between 314 and
18 the railroad. We have a commercial zone, which includes
19 the former casino site, which is shaded in this ugly peach
20 color on the map. And, also, the property on the west
21 side of Route 380 is zoned commercial down until some
22 point where it crosses Sullivan Trail, and then we
23 believe, although the line on the map is a little bit
24 confusing, we believe that the back part of this property
25 is zoned residential.
18
1 Currently this property, which is the
2 property in question that we're asking for the rezoning
3 on, is zoned RR, and we own a small parcel on the other
4 side of Sullivan Trail, which is approximately four or
5 five acres, and that is zoned R-2. So that's the zoning
6 of the property.
7 We do have some development plans that
8 are ongoing on the property. We have a small subdivision
9 with 26 lots on the south side of Back Mountain Road,
10 which has a preliminary approval from Pocono Township and
11 we're winding up our other permits and approvals that are
12 necessary.
13 Currently we have a PRD in between --
14 into Pocono Township for some homes, multifamily homes
15 around the east town -- the east golf course, and also in
16 Pocono Township. And also on the board is a lifestyle
17 center, about a million and a half square feet, which is
18 in the area of the former casino site. This is about a
19 million and a half square feet of retail. It also
20 includes -- the preliminary plans include about 9
21 restaurant pads, and we also show a 400 -- new 400 Key
22 Resort Hotel on this property, and a new 400 Key
23 Convention Center Hotel on that property.
24 And, of course, like any other
25 development these days, you know, it's what the market
19
1 bears and things are very slow at the moment, but we're
2 actively pursuing this approval. And this property has
3 recently been -- we partnered with Fameco, who is doing --
4 who did the Crossroads and is doing the truck stop down in
5 Bartonsville, and they are marketing this piece even as we
6 speak.
7 MR. RICHARD MAYLANDER: Mr. Cahill --
8 MR. JAMES CAHILL: This is a blowup of
9 the property that is in Tobyhanna Township, showing the
10 commercially zoned property and the CI property. This map
11 is in error, we believe, because this southern part is
12 actually zoned residential, R-2, I believe, south of
13 Sullivan Trail, which was pointed out at the last meeting
14 but hasn't been changed, this exhibit yet. And the
15 property that we are asking to be rezoned is this
16 property, which is the former -- where the active gravel
17 pit or the mine is on the site. That piece is bounded, if
18 you will, on the north by Swiftwater Creek and the other
19 property that is zoned commercial in Tobyhanna Township.
20 On the east the property -- this
21 property in question is bounded by the municipal boundary
22 line between Tobyhanna and Pocono Township; on the south
23 the property is bounded by Sullivan Trail; and on the east
24 the property is bounded by Interstate Route 380.
25 We feel, for a number of reasons, that
20
1 this would make more sense as a commercially zoned
2 property than would a residentially zoned property. It
3 seems to be a natural extension of our commercial piece.
4 The property has highway frontage, which is great for
5 commercial development but very bad for residential
6 development because of the noise generated from the
7 interstate highway.
8 There's also a 69 KV electric line, on
9 big poles, that runs -- runs through the property, comes
10 across, goes across 380 and actually goes to the Pinecrest
11 substation out here, and I imagine the electricity for
12 this building even comes through those lines. So it has
13 high intensity, not very attractive power lines that run
14 through the property, and again, power lines are okay for
15 commercial development, but they're a no no for
16 residential development these days. Nobody wants to
17 purchase a home next to a power line.
18 The existing topography of the land is
19 also not conducive to residential zoning. It will take
20 extensive work and reclamation once the mining activity
21 has started and stopped. And basically, I don't know if
22 any of you have been out there, but it kind of looks like
23 a piece of moonscape right now, big pieces of concrete and
24 piles of stumps and asphalt and everything else out there.
25 Another part of -- that we think is
21
1 worthwhile bringing up is the financial advantages of
2 commercial development. And every year the Monroe County
3 Planning Commission does a report, an annual report, and
4 it outlines for each municipality what residential
5 development that they have approved and what commercial
6 development that they approved.
7 Commercial development is generally
8 financially beneficial to a municipality where residential
9 development is not, primarily because of the school, the
10 burden on the school district that's caused by that. And
11 it's important that -- to balance things, that commercial
12 development keep up or exceed the residential development
13 or it means that eventually taxes are going to have to go
14 up.
15 The county planning commission has
16 reports on their website that go all the way back to '02,
17 and of those, Tobyhanna Township has approved residential
18 at a pace greater than commercial development to the point
19 of the burden to the taxpayers is about $285,000 to the
20 negative; so this commercial development that we have
21 planned here will be a great tax benefit to the township
22 and will certainly offset that -- that loss and give it
23 some good gain.
24 So that being said, I tried to keep it
25 to 10 minutes.
22
1 MR. MARC WOLFE: Jim, before you sit
2 down --
3 MR. JAMES CAHILL: Yes.
4 MR. MARC WOLFE: -- do you know if the
5 township has lost commercially zoned acreage to the school
6 district and this would help them place and increase those
7 loss --
8 MR. JAMES CAHILL: Yes, I believe they
9 lost about 400 acres when the school district bought the
10 land for Pocono Mountain West, for the school campus, and
11 this will -- though it's not 400 acres, it will be a large
12 chunk of returning that commercially zoned property to the
13 benefit of the township.
14 MR. MARC WOLFE: Okay. Thank you.
15 MR. ARMSTRONG: I think.
16 MR. RICHARD MAYLANDER: Can I make a
17 comment now?
18 MS. PICKARD: We need the list and
19 then did you sign up on the list?
20 MR. RICHARD MAYLANDER: Yeah. My
21 name's on there.
22 MS. BARBARA DeGEORGE: Who wants this?
23 MR. ARMSTRONG: The chairman will
24 probably be calling you.
25 MR. KERRICK: I can't even read their
23
1 writing.
2 MR. KERRICK: Sir, you're the first
3 one to sign this?
4 MR. RICHARD MAYLANDER: Yes.
5 MR. KERRICK: I can't read your last
6 name.
7 MR. RICHARD MAYLANDER: Maylander.
8 MR. KERRICK: Maylan?
9 MR. RICHARD MAYLANDER: Maylander,
10 M-A-Y-L-A-N-D-E-R.
11 MR. KERRICK: It's your floor.
12 MR. RICHARD MAYLANDER: Pocono Manor
13 --
14 MR. ARMSTRONG: If everyone can just
15 keep -- can everyone just keep it down? We'll have to try
16 to limit just one person talking at a time because the
17 stenographer will be taking down everyone --
18 MR. MARC WOLFE: Could the individual
19 identify his name and where he resides so we can keep
20 track of it?
21 MR. ARMSTRONG: Right. For purposes
22 of organization, the stenographer is going to be talking
23 everything down, so only one person should be talking at
24 one time. And when you do, please stand up, identify
25 yourself, your address and which township you reside in.
24
1 MR. RICHARD MAYLANDER: My name is
2 Dick Maylander. I live at Pocono Manor. And for the
3 edification of those, I think Mr. Cahill left out a very
4 important factor that, that the town of Pocono Manor has
5 50 homes on it, and we jointly own the property. It's not
6 exclusively owned by Pocono Manor. We're -- a dual
7 ownership, if you will.
8 The other question I have is, is there
9 a noise ordinance in Tobyhanna Township? And if not, why
10 not?
11 MR. ARMSTRONG: Well --
12 MR. RICHARD MAYLANDER: That's all I
13 have.
14 MR. ARMSTRONG: -- the noise ordinance
15 we can address after the public hearing. I don't know if
16 that's really pertinent to the -- to the zoning --
17 MR. RICHARD MAYLANDER: I was just
18 wondering if there was a noise ordinance. I know they
19 don't have one in Pocono Township.
20 MR. KERRICK: I can't cite it, but
21 there is one.
22 MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. It sounds like
23 there is one.
24 MR. KERRICK: There is one. I --
25 MR. RICHARD MAYLANDER: There is?
25
1 MR. KERRICK: Sir, what township do
2 you live in, reside in?
3 MR. RICHARD MAYLANDER: Pocono.
4 MR. KERRICK: Pocono?
5 MR. RICHARD MAYLANDER: Pocono Manor,
6 yeah.
7 MR. KERRICK: Pocono Township, though.
8 MR. RICHARD MAYLANDER: I just wanted
9 to add to Mr. Cahill's presentation about the ownership.
10 Thank you very much.
11 MR. RUSSELL CRAMER: John --
12 MR. MARC WOLFE: Mr. Chairman,
13 Mr. Maylander resides in Pocono Township?
14 MR. KERRICK: That's what I got.
15 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: Which township?
16 MR. RICHARD MAYLANDER: Pocono
17 Township.
18 MR. KERRICK: I got it.
19 MR. ARMSTRONG: Thank you.
20 MR. KERRICK: Next is Russell Cramer?
21 MR. RUSSELL CRAMER: Yes. I'm Russell
22 Cramer. I live at 12 Park Lane, Pocono Manor, Pocono
23 Township, and as I've said at my last appearance at this
24 supervisors hearing, I'm here basically to address the
25 issues of the noise and environmental damage that's being
26
1 caused by the Lost Trails ATV Park. And my concern about
2 the change in the zoning would be, this would legitimatize
3 the fact that this ATV park is currently operating
4 illegally, as far as I understand it, in an R and -- RR
5 residential zone, and that we can't understand, as
6 residents, why the supervisors have allowed this activity
7 to continue for two years while it's a nonpermitted use,
8 and that we would be concerned that if you would pass --
9 pass the ordinance, or change the changing of the zoning,
10 that this would allow them to continue to do this legally
11 at this point would be legally, and that we would be
12 subject to additional environmental noise pollution and
13 quality of life issues.
14 I personally don't have a big issue
15 with building nice shops and things out along 380, but I
16 do have a problem with the continuation of what we're
17 seeing with the Lost Trails ATV Park.
18 MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, I mean -- I
19 mean, whether or not something's being done illegal or
20 not, I don't don't necessarily know it is at this point.
21 I know that the neighboring township, there's a -- it's
22 zoned recreational use in the neighboring township and
23 that, you know, some, if not the majority, of that ATV use
24 that you're talking about tonight is in that neighboring
25 township.
27
1 Now, let's keep on track here. This
2 is a public hearing for the rezoning ordinance. Any noise
3 concerns or other concerns with respect to zoning
4 violations or whatever the allegation or concern is,
5 doesn't necessarily concern the rezoning ordinance that's
6 before the board tonight. I mean --
7 MR. RUSSELL CRAMER: But it's
8 emanating from Tobyhanna Township, and we feel that if you
9 would, in fact, make it commercial, then there would be no
10 problem with this continuing. I mean, you know, in our
11 attempt to try to block this, you know, we see in this
12 particular instance, that if it's a nonpermitted use, if
13 it's RR, then that is at least one opportunity we have to
14 try to stop it. We wouldn't under a commercial.
15 MR. KERRICK: I want to make a
16 statement. If it was changed to commercial, anything that
17 they would do with that property has to come back to this
18 town -- the planning commission and the board of
19 supervisors for a land development use, land development
20 plan, approval.
21 MR. RUSSELL CRAMER: Including the
22 Lost Trails?
23 MR. KERRICK: Yes.
24 MR. RUSSELL CRAMER: If you made that
25 change, would that initiate that response?
28
1 MS. PICKARD: No, if we -- if the
2 property stays rural residential, they'll be coming in as
3 a private club and going to the zoning hearing board for a
4 special exception. If we change the property to
5 commercial, the ATV would have to come in for a
6 conditional use, where the board of supervisors would
7 place conditions.
8 So right now as it stands, we've
9 been -- you know, it's in the process right now waiting
10 for this change to be directed to go to either the zoning
11 board or to the supervisors for another hearing.
12 MR. RUSSELL CRAMER: Thank you.
13 MS. PICKARD: We're going to --
14 MR. EUGENE VAN HORN: So they're
15 coming in front of you either way?
16 MR. ARMSTRONG: Wait -- let's -- we
17 got to identify -- when you speak, identify yourself,
18 where you're from.
19 MS. PICKARD: Is there a Mr. Rich?
20 Lenny?
21 MR. KERRICK: Leana?
22 MS. LEANNA RICH: Leanna.
23 MS. LEANNA RICH: Well, my concern is
24 the same as Mr. Cramer.
25 MR. KERRICK: You live in Pocono
29
1 Township?
2 MS. LEANNA RICH: I'm sorry, yeah,
3 Pocono Township, 412 Sullivan Trail. Leanna Rich.
4 It's the same, with the noise, and if
5 this zoned commercial, my concern is that it would
6 continue with the Lost Trails. You're saying that they
7 would have to come before the board in order to continue
8 their operation, is that my understanding?
9 MS. PICKARD: Um-hum.
10 MR. MOYER: Right.
11 MS. LEANNA RICH: So as of now they
12 could continue to operate the way that they're operating
13 now, illegally?
14 MR. ARMSTRONG: I don't think anyone's
15 said they're operating illegally right now.
16 MR. RICHARD MAYLANDER: When did you
17 approve them?
18 MR. EUGENE VAN HORN: What is the
19 noise ordinance?
20 MR. ARMSTRONG: Again, we have to --
21 MS. PICKARD: We're going through our
22 list.
23 MS. JANICE MILLER: Yeah. We
24 understand that.
25 MS. PICKARD: I believe the next one
30
1 on the list, Mr. Ferguson, is that?
2 MR. DANIEL FERGUSON: My name is Dan
3 Ferguson, I live in Tobyhanna, Coolbaugh Township.
4 Ironically, I wrote the ordinance, that's the noise
5 ordinance, that Tobyhanna adopted five years ago, six
6 years ago, when Chief Lamberton came in, he asked us to
7 unify all the ordinances, in four municipalities.
8 I rise today to tell you,
9 emphatically, that Lost Trails ATV Adventures highway
10 access, whatever it is, never applied for an HOP from
11 PennDOT. That entrance is in Tobyhanna Township. There's
12 never been a highway occupancy permit on State Route 4004,
13 Segment 130, given to the Lost Trails ATV Adventures, and
14 to that degree, they are operating illegally, using that
15 entrance.
16 MS. JANICE MILLER: Amen. Good show,
17 man.
18 MS. PICKARD: Janice Miller?
19 MS. JANICE MILLER: With what
20 Mr. Ferguson just said, I can now confirm --
21 MR. KERRICK: Where do you live,
22 ma'am?
23 MS. JANICE MILLER: Tobyhanna
24 Township. I live on the line.
25 MR. KERRICK: On Sullivan Trail?
31
1 MS. JANICE MILLER: Yes.
2 MR. KERRICK: Thank you.
3 MS. JANICE MILLER: That I can confirm
4 that they are operating illegally because I saw someone
5 from Lost Trails today with their truck. They turned
6 around in Deats Road today in front of my property, which
7 I just purchased, didn't know any of this was going on
8 when I purchased the property, and today they were posting
9 up flags right across from my property on the corner of
10 Deats Road and Sullivan Trail. They were putting up
11 divider lines so that no one can get through the path in
12 there without picking it up and having yellow flags on it.
13 And, also, up from where their
14 entrance is, that they have their gate, they have a gate
15 that they lock at night when it's closed, and then about
16 walking distance, not even a quarter of a mile away, they
17 also posted a gate with a line with yellow flags on it.
18 So in two places on Sullivan Trail, just today, I saw
19 their truck with their name on it, Lost Trails RV
20 Center -- or ATV center, turn around in my area right by
21 my -- because I'm right on the coroner of Sullivan Trail
22 and Deats Road, and they turned around.
23 And when I left for a meeting this
24 morn -- to go to a doctor's appointment, they were there
25 posting these flags on the property. So, I know that they
32
1 were in -- in not -- this gentleman said that they're
2 posting illegally and they were working today illegally.
3 MR. DANIEL FERGUSON: They may own the
4 property. They may own the property.
5 MS. JANICE MILLER: I don't care, but
6 they're still doing things that they shouldn't be doing
7 without your approval.
8 MR. ARMSTRONG: Okay. Again, this is
9 a public hearing for the proposed rezoning ordinance.
10 Changing that parcel that was -- that's identified on --
11 on that map and in the ordinance as RR currently, being
12 rezoned to C commercial. That's what this public hearing
13 is for. This isn't a zoning violation hearing, it's --
14 MS. JANICE MILLER: Okay --
15 MR. DANIEL FERGUSON: Right.
16 MS. JANICE MILLER: -- but regarding
17 the violation, that's a violation by them, but I also want
18 to know if they change it to commercial, what are they
19 going to put on that piece of property once they fix it
20 up? No one in any of these meetings that I've attended
21 since I purchased the property -- yeah, they want to
22 rezone it, but I want to know what they want to put in
23 there.
24 MR. RICHARD MAYLANDER: Good point.
25 MS. JANICE MILLER: Am I going to have
33
1 people there in restaurants coming?
2 MR. ARMSTRONG: There's no --
3 MS. JANICE MILLER: Lights?
4 MR. ARMSTRONG: There's no pending
5 land development plan that I'm aware of before the
6 township.
7 MS. JANICE MILLER: Then why are you
8 going to rezone them commercial if you don't know what
9 they're going to put on there? You should know what
10 they're going to put on it first before you rezone.
11 (Applause.)
12 MR. KERRICK: Diane? You have the
13 floor.
14 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: I'm not ready
15 yet.
16 MR. KERRICK: You're not ready?
17 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: No.
18 MR. JAMES CAHILL: Can I just maybe
19 give one comment that may help with that?
20 MR. KERRICK: Sure.
21 MR. JAMES CAHILL: We have no -- no
22 current plans for the property other than that we will
23 develop this commercial property first and then proceed
24 southward. That is not to say that someone doesn't come
25 in and -- and want a specific site down in here and it may
34
1 jump ahead in the schedule, but currently, right now, just
2 so you know -- I mean, a million and a half square feet of
3 commercial center, if we went full board tomorrow, it's
4 probably a five to ten year build out. So --
5 MS. JANICE MILLER: Still eventually
6 we're going to be -- we still want to know what you're
7 putting there.
8 MR. JAMES CAHILL: Well, before we did
9 anything, we'd have to file a --
10 MS. JANICE MILLER: Then do it before
11 you build it.
12 MR. JAMES CAHILL: -- a land use plan
13 and come for all the site plan --
14 MR. ARMSTRONG: Let's --
15 MR. JAMES CAHILL: -- approvals and
16 everything.
17 MR. ARMSTRONG: Just this little
18 clarification. Townships occasionally rezone certain
19 parcels of property throughout the township throughout
20 time. You know, some of the things they take into
21 consideration, this one was a petition by the actual
22 property owner, middle of last year; and after looking at
23 the petition and looking at the neighboring properties,
24 seeing how -- I think you can see on that map, it's
25 surrounded, with the exception to the south, with
35
1 commercial, and it looks like the neighboring township --
2 I think it's recreational use district to the neighboring
3 township.
4 So the board takes that into
5 consideration and looks at the regional comp plan that the
6 township has with neighboring municipalities. It takes
7 into account what Monroe County Planning Commission
8 indicates in their review letter, in their
9 recommendations. It takes into account, you know, the
10 balancing out of certain districts throughout the
11 township. It just so happens that this particular time, a
12 property owner petitioned a township with a number of
13 parcels to consider to rezone; and out of that petition,
14 after doing all of that analysis, the board has come up
15 with -- with that one parcel that you see on that map to
16 be rezoned from RR to commercial.
17 There is no land development plan
18 before the township for it. If and when the property
19 owner, whoever that may be at the time in the future,
20 decides to develop the property in a manner consistent
21 with the -- if this is adopted and in a manner consistent
22 with the C commercial district, they have the uses that
23 are permitted in that district to choose from, permitted
24 uses, special exceptions, they'd have to go through a
25 special exception, conditional use. They'd have to to go
36
1 through a conditional use, but it would still be a plan
2 filed with the township. It would come before not only
3 this board for consideration, but also the township
4 planning commission for consideration, when and if the
5 time would come, that a land development plan would come
6 through the flood gates, so to speak.
7 MR. KERRICK: Art Caldwell, next?
8 MR. ART CALDWELL: Yes. I hate to
9 keep beating a dead horse to death, but a lot of concern
10 with myself and I think a lot of the other people here, is
11 that -- the noise. When we first moved up here, there was
12 no ATV park across the street. I'm not opposed to ATVs.
13 My sons have -- both had them, you know. As a matter of
14 fact, they used to ride on Pocono Manor property and stuff
15 and a few other places going back to 1999, year 2000. A
16 few years ago the kids were -- well, local kids were
17 virtually told that they couldn't ride on the property
18 anymore. And a short while after that, there's an ATV
19 park.
20 The thing is between local kids using
21 the facility, you know, periodically, that's one thing;
22 but when you have people coming from New Jersey, New York,
23 bringing trailer loads of ATVs, riding them from -- all
24 weekend long, and then you have people shooting shotguns
25 or skeets. You know, I go skeet shooting. This place --
37
1 facility is across the street from where I live on
2 Sullivan Trail. I've never been there, frankly, because I
3 can't afford it. That's about the only reason, you know.
4 And it really is annoying.
5 You know, these facilities were not
6 there when we moved -- moved there, and I had no control
7 of how they got there and I'm really opposed to basically
8 the noise, you know. And it sounds like nobody's not
9 going to do anything about. You know, it's like here's
10 the noise, so what, deal with it.
11 As far as from what I can understand,
12 they never went through the right procedures to put the
13 ATV park there in the first place, you know. And now
14 we're going to condone it by letting it go commercial.
15 That's what I have to say for now.
16 Thank you.
17 MR. MARC WOLFE: Sir, I didn't get
18 your name or where you reside.
19 MR. ART CALDWELL: My name is Art
20 Caldwell, my address is RD 1, Box 200, Scotrun.
21 MR. MARC WOLFE: Are you -- is your
22 property in Pocono or Tobyhanna Township?
23 MR. ART CALDWELL: It's Tobyhanna. I
24 live directly on Sullivan Trail. I'm about 25 feet from
25 Pocono Manor. Across the street, I'm there.
38
1 MR. MARC WOLFE: Okay. Thank you very
2 much.
3 MR. ARMSTRONG: Again, is this a
4 public hearing for the proposed rezoning. I -- we
5 understand your concerns with the noise. Typically, I
6 mean -- why don't we just address the noise issue right
7 now. If there is a noise ordinance on the books, which it
8 sounds like there is, typically how they're enforced is,
9 if there's concerns with a property owner that's, you
10 know, excessively loud, you contact the township, the
11 township looks at the zoning ordinance and they, you know,
12 investigate the situation and they see if there's a noise
13 problem.
14 MR. ART CALDWELL: Sir, can I tell you
15 something? If they did like they do the car races twice a
16 year, I would have never had a complaint.
17 MR. ARMSTRONG: And another thing with
18 the noise ordinance, the reason a lot of these noise
19 ordinances are hard to enforce is because you have to have
20 some -- when they're recording the decibel levels of the
21 noise, when it's occurring, determining that it's in
22 excess of the noise -- I mean, you may not like it, but
23 that's -- you know, that's the world we live in, in order
24 to enforce an ordinance that's written in the books.
25 MR. RICHARD MAYLANDER: That's why
39
1 these people are elected, you know, to do the will of the
2 people. And if everybody here is complaining about the
3 noise, well, then they've got to stop the noise. It's as
4 simple as that.
5 MS. JANICE MILLER: And it's been at
6 three meetings because I've been to three meetings
7 already.
8 MR. ARMSTRONG: Okay. But, again, we
9 are here for the rezoning ordinance. We're not here for a
10 zoning violation or noise of certain ATV uses.
11 MR. EUGENE VAN HORN: Yeah, but if you
12 rezone it commercial, then we're out of luck. They're
13 done. They can do it 100 percent.
14 MR. ARMSTRONG: Not necessarily.
15 MR. EUGENE VAN HORN: Well, that's not
16 necessarily --
17 MR. KERRICK: First of all, you don't
18 have the floor. This gentleman over here has the floor.
19 MR. EUGENE VAN HORN: He's not making
20 any sense. He keeps reiterating this is a rezoning --
21 MR. KERRICK: Do you want to stay in
22 this meeting? You want to stay in this meeting?
23 MR. EUGENE VAN HORN: You know?
24 Please.
25 MR. KERRICK: We're very patient
40
1 listening to you.
2 MR. EUGENE VAN HORN: No, you're not.
3 You just told me to shut up.
4 MR. KERRICK: I didn't use those
5 terms, did I?
6 MR. EUGENE VAN HORN: Well, basically,
7 yes.
8 MR. ARMSTRONG: Okay. Let's --
9 MR. KERRICK: If you want the floor,
10 sign the paper and I'll call on you.
11 MR. EUGENE VAN HORN: I've fucking had
12 it. That's what I've had.
13 MR. KERRICK: You what?
14 MR. EUGENE VAN HORN: I don't want to
15 talk, all right? Just keep going because we're not
16 getting anywhere.
17 MR. KERRICK: Do you have anything
18 else, Mr. Caldwell?
19 MR. ART CALDWELL: No, that's it.
20 MR. KERRICK: Would you like the floor
21 now?
22 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: Yes.
23 MR. KERRICK: Go ahead.
24 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: I'm Diane
25 Caldwell, I live 25 feet, like my husband said, from this
41
1 proposed rezoning.
2 Now, I'm not going to beat a dead
3 horse to the ground. I'm going to get to the
4 nitty-gritty, and the nitty-gritty is that I met with
5 Mr. Cahill. I was -- went for an informative meeting to
6 find out what all you people here tonight are -- witnessed
7 and found out.
8 So I have some questions. Mr. Cahill.
9 MR. MARC WOLFE: This is not
10 cross-examination. Just make a statement.
11 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: All right. I'll
12 make the statements to the board.
13 Number one, I'd like to know -- we
14 don't have a proposed plan. We have a semi-thing of what
15 we -- what we could see could happen, and I'm looking for
16 what's going to protect the development of Blueberry
17 Estates, which it has a very strong impact on. We're
18 about a thousand feet -- 25 feet to a thousand feet
19 encompasses the subdivision.
20 I want to know, one, what barriers?
21 Now, I know through Monroe County Planning Commission,
22 they would recommend 100 foot barriers. That's a
23 standard. They're not going -- nobody's giving me
24 anything. It would be something that they'd have to
25 comply to, so I want to know above that what I'm going to
42
1 get.
2 The second thing is, I was -- it was
3 recommended that maybe evergreen trees would be put up so
4 I wouldn't have to look at it. Well, you know what? It
5 may be environmental, but it doesn't stop the whole
6 picture of what you see with a huge project like that.
7 Secondly, Morris Bailey is the person
8 who has a very strong tie to several huge developments,
9 whether it be Toronto, Canada, New York City, Las Vegas.
10 His name gets dropped a lot as to whether he's going to be
11 backing a project like this. We all know Morris Bailey
12 probably has enough on his plate right now with the
13 bailouts that he's going through in the real estate market
14 in New York City alone. Eight to ten years down the road,
15 this project could come into effect, that's fine. Is it a
16 good plan from what I saw, absolutely. You know, you look
17 at it, it looks like the Disney World of the Poconos.
18 MS. JANICE MILLER: Um-hum.
19 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: The residential
20 factor versus the commercial factor? Tobyhanna Township
21 does not just encompass this little section over here.
22 Tobyhanna Township encompasses a very large area. And
23 just because you lost 400 acres to the Pocono Mountain
24 West High School, from that, Mr. Randy Hoffman sold to the
25 school district, doesn't affect all the other commercial
43
1 areas that went up in Tobyhanna Township that you have
2 recouped money from.
3 MS. JANICE MILLER: Amen.
4 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: And Tobyhanna
5 Township was almost down to Blakeslee Corners. So there's
6 been a lot of commercial development on the outskirts, the
7 inskirts, wherever you want to point for Tobyhanna
8 Township, where commercial property has been built on and
9 you've recouped some of that 400 acres that everybody
10 keeps throwing up that they lost.
11 But getting back to Pocono Manor, what
12 if they sell? Are they going to put in their deed that
13 they're going to protect us, that whoever buys is not
14 going to change the rules to protect that little
15 subdivision of Blueberry Estates? And I reiterate again,
16 under a court order, I am a Blueberry Estate resident --
17 MS. JANICE MILLER: Amen.
18 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: -- which is part
19 of Emerald Lakes Development. So not only does the
20 township have an obligation to the people in there, and
21 Pocono Manor, but Emerald Lakes does too, you know?
22 We're all in it for one reason and the
23 reason is, I moved here from Brooklyn to Parsippany, New
24 Jersey. I was 20 -- I was like in my 20s when I moved out
25 of Brooklyn. When I moved to Parsippany, there were cows
44
1 grazing on the property down the street from where I
2 lived. There was no Route Interstate 80. Interstate 80
3 within 10 years went through all of those properties, and
4 people who owned homes lost their homes to commercial
5 development.
6 I don't want to be one of those
7 people. So I want to see where Pocono Manor will protect
8 the people of Emerald Lakes, especially Blueberry Estates,
9 because we're that little subdivision that that 3,000 acre
10 plot encompasses.
11 MS. JANICE MILLER: Amen.
12 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: Safety? We've
13 talked about safety. We've talked about traffic. We've
14 talked about noise. We've talked about a lot of things in
15 four or five, six meetings with no resolve. So the
16 nitty-gritty is, I'm asking the supervisors here to make
17 Pocono Manor accountable, not just to the people of
18 Blueberry Estates, but to the people of Sullivan Trail, to
19 the people of Pocono Manor, to the people of Pocono
20 Township, to the people of Mount Pocono Borough.
21 This is a large area of 3,000 acres
22 that this project is going to encompass. And if you look
23 at the corner of the picture, it doesn't look too bad; but
24 when you do look at the whole picture, we do increase
25 noise, we do increase pollution, we do increase traffic,
45
1 we do increase lighting. I mean, a lot of things
2 increase.
3 MS. JANICE MILLER: Crime.
4 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: Crime is going to
5 go up. It's going to change a lot of things. And this
6 little strip of commercial may not be a big deal to
7 everybody else, but it's a big deal to people in this room
8 who it affects. So we can beat a horse to death about
9 noise, okay, that's one issue. But the whole thing is the
10 whole picture of what you're looking at.
11 And what -- I mean, financing? Who
12 right now is going to back up a project with the way the
13 economy is right now? And like Mrs. Miller said, you
14 know, it could take years. We don't want to be forced
15 out.
16 MS. JANICE MILLER: I just want
17 that --
18 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: You know, I don't
19 want people to wash their hands of me because I may be in
20 it for a fight. I'm not in it for a fight. I'm in it to
21 protect what's mine, and what's everybody else's property
22 in there too, not just me, but everybody that sits in this
23 room.
24 MS. JANICE MILLER: Amen.
25 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: And that's all
46
1 I'm asking the supervisors to take into consideration, not
2 to look at the corner of the picture, to look at the whole
3 picture and the ramifications that it has for all of the
4 boroughs involved and what it's going to do with this
5 little strip of commercial property, and to protect us
6 with barriers, to protect us with greenery, to protect us
7 with -- if it's sold, that we get deeded in the deed that
8 no one will be able to sell it without protecting us.
9 MS. JANICE MILLER: Property prices.
10 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: That's what I'm
11 asking for. Thank you.
12 MR. KERRICK: Thank you.
13 (Applause.)
14 MS. JANICE MILLER: Amen.
15 MR. KERRICK: Thomas Campson?
16 MR. THOMAS CAMPSON: Yes. 114 Butz
17 Lane, Scotrun, Tobyhanna Township.
18 MS. PICKARD: You're in Tobyhanna
19 Township?
20 MR. THOMAS CAMPSON: Yes, ma'am.
21 I'd like to go back to the school
22 property, first off. My memory serves me right, the
23 Pocono Record wrote a big, big -- lot of big articles
24 about that. That property, a lot of it was wetlands; so
25 it was wetlands, how could it be developed? It couldn't.
47
1 Now, as far as Mr. Cahill stating
2 about homes near the power lines and homes near 380, in my
3 community, they just built some homes on the back road of
4 Miller Lane. The one house is 300 feet from 380. And
5 there are homes in Emerald Lakes area off of Sullivan
6 Trail on Long Pond Road, believe it or not, abut the power
7 lines.
8 MS. JANICE MILLER: That's right.
9 MR. THOMAS CAMPSON: So I mean, give
10 me a break. I don't know where he's getting his
11 information from, but if the price is right, people will
12 buy a house. I don't care if it's on top of a mountain or
13 next to a power line. So I don't know where this
14 information is coming from.
15 I don't -- I don't know if he's a real
16 estate broker or anything, so I really don't know, you
17 know, where these comments are coming from. You know,
18 it's just -- and I'm against this thing totally. You
19 know, I'm within -- I'm within 800 feet of that property.
20 The ATV park doesn't bother me, I don't hear it. The guns
21 sometimes get me a little nervous, but -- but other than
22 that, though, I'm definitely against this piece of
23 property. It's only 190 acres. If they've got over
24 3,000, why don't they leave that 190 acres alone?
25 Thank you very much.
48
1 MR. KERRICK: Chris Kuebler?
2 MR. CHRIS KUEBLER: I'm Chris Kuebler,
3 69 Swiftwater Avenue, Pocono Manor in Pocono Township.
4 I hadn't planned to say anything, but
5 I just had an interesting thought. Mr. Cahill indicated
6 that there is no immediate plans to develop this property.
7 And perhaps he and his trustees would consider postponing
8 the application for commercial for at least five years.
9 Is that a possibility?
10 MR. ARMSTRONG: There is -- let me
11 just clarify. There's no application at this point.
12 MR. CHRIS KUEBLER: Sure.
13 MR. ARMSTRONG: They petitioned the
14 township back in August of '08. The township, after
15 reviewing a number of things, decided to move forward with
16 this particular proposed rezoning ordinance. So this is
17 actually an ordinance prepared by the township --
18 MR. CHRIS KUEBLER: Um-hum.
19 MR. ARMSTRONG: -- considering the
20 rezoning of that parcel of property.
21 MR. CHRIS KUEBLER: Sure. Then I
22 guess my question is directed to the supervisors, that
23 under the circumstances, the flavor of the concerns
24 about -- that were raised today and at previous meetings,
25 perhaps you people should consider just postponing the
49
1 rezoning for a period of time. And I'm suggesting perhaps
2 five years.
3 MS. JANICE MILLER: Amen. That's
4 right.
5 MR. KERRICK: Thank you.
6 Tony Novak?
7 MR. TONY NOVAK: No comment at this
8 time.
9 MR. KERRICK: Craig Coffman?
10 MR. CRAIG COFFMAN: I'm Craig Coffman.
11 I live at 212 Butz Lane, Blueberry Estates in Tobyhanna
12 Township.
13 My concern is Sullivan Trail, from
14 Long Pond Road into the Tobyhanna Township border. It's a
15 dangerous piece of road as it is now. For years there's
16 been accidents on that corner where the access road goes
17 to the pit area where the ATV park is today. Previously
18 there had been dump trucks going out of there dropping big
19 rocks along the road. Now it's the ATV park, Saturday and
20 Sunday mornings pickup trucks with trailers are parked
21 there waiting for it to open. They're sitting along the
22 road on that sharp curve, and just -- I'm just waiting for
23 something big to happen there.
24 We all know, when we live on that
25 road, throughout the wintertime there's multiple
50
1 accidents. It's curvy down through there, there's a lot
2 of people coming out of Emerald Lakes sliding through stop
3 signs as it is. I would be interested in the access, if
4 you're going to build corporations in there for industry,
5 how would you access that to prevent those problems on
6 that corner?
7 Thank you.
8 MR. KERRICK: Thomas White?
9 MR. THOMAS WHITE: Thomas White,
10 Sullivan Trail. It's Tobyhanna Township, probably, oh,
11 500 yards from the entrance to the park, from the quarry.
12 I would be for anything that would
13 stop dump trucks from riding down the street as often, you
14 know, as they do now, and my house is pretty close to the
15 road, so it kind of shakes the windows in the house when
16 they roll by. So less of those, I would definitely be for
17 more, not really pertaining to the use of the land. I
18 don't really care what they do with the land, but if you
19 can stop that or maybe move 380, I would be happy.
20 That's all I have.
21 MS. PICKARD: Thank you.
22 MR. KERRICK: Thank you.
23 Richard Nero?
24 MR. RICHARD NERO: Richard Nero,
25 Pocono Manor, Pocono Township.
51
1 I spoke a few years ago before this
2 body in favor, and Jim knows it well. I was very much in
3 favor of the casino and in fact at that time they were
4 looking for a height variance or something for the hotel
5 and I was very much in favor. My attitude was, if they
6 got the casino and their plan would unfold, you know,
7 they'd have a lot of big fish to fry and a lot of things
8 to go on. And I doubt, seriously, we'd be sitting here
9 now looking at ATV operations because they'd be interested
10 in a lot of other things that would be bigger bucks and
11 more important.
12 I will say this to Mr. Cahill. I do
13 remember an article in the Pocono Record in which you or
14 your company or one of your spokesmen called Pocono Manor
15 the grand old lady of the mountain, or the grand lady of
16 the mountain, something to that nature. The grand lady
17 has now got tread marks running all the way up her legs,
18 over her butt and over her head. This is not careful use
19 of this property, and I'd like to ask, when you did
20 approve of the trailblazers or whatever they are,
21 organization ATV, because you said they have to come
22 before you if you make this change to get approved. I
23 don't understand when you approved them under the RR
24 zoning. And --
25 MR. ARMSTRONG: I don't think there's
52
1 ever been an approval --
2 MR. RICHARD NERO: So people could
3 just go and do whatever they want and then come to your
4 body and get zoning changes that would comply with it
5 after you've used it for two years. That's what you're
6 setting up. That's exactly what you're setting up as a
7 board of supervisors and it's your responsibility to take
8 care of these matters for us, the citizens. And that's
9 all I'm asking you, because I'm getting a lot of bleeding
10 from your township. I have pollution, I have noise, I
11 have environmental destruction all coming in to Pocono
12 Township from Tobyhanna from a use that you didn't
13 approve.
14 MR. ARMSTRONG: With -- with all
15 due --
16 (Applause.)
17 MR. RICHARD NERO: I'm -- I'm -- I'm
18 just making a point and it sets --
19 MR. ARMSTRONG: With all due respect,
20 sir, if you're talking about Pocono Township --
21 MR. RICHARD NERO: I'm talking
22 about --
23 MR. ARMSTRONG: Right. I believe the
24 use is permitted within Pocono Township in the
25 recreational use area where this is located. In your
53
1 township, it's a permitted use. On the property --
2 MR. RICHARD NERO: The people that are
3 bleeding in, this has opened up the door for a whole --
4 you -- I live right on the side of the mountain looking
5 down Swiftwater. Saturday, last Saturday, by 9:30 in the
6 morning, there were ATVs running all over the mountain.
7 They weren't even from the ATV organization, because
8 what's happened is, we are now known as the ATV capitol.
9 If you own an ATV and you're within striking distance, you
10 can get your way in there.
11 And this is what you're going -- by
12 zoning this the way you are, unless you make restrictions
13 on ATVs within that zoning, you're going to allow this to
14 develop even further. And I'm telling you, it's bleeding
15 into this township, into Pocono Township, and it's a very,
16 very poor use of the -- of the property.
17 That's all I'm going to say, except I
18 think there's a fire danger with the ATVs, there's
19 pollution of Swiftwater Stream, they've -- you know,
20 there's mud washout, there's stuff like that, when they
21 take 14 ATVs and drive over or up by the gravel pit in
22 your township, they churn it all up. That mud gets washed
23 somewhere and I'm sure it's all going into Swiftwater.
24 And that was a very pristine stream at one time.
25 Do the right thing, do the green
54
1 thing, and turn this thing down or get some control over
2 it. That's all I'm asking you, as a neighbor. That's
3 all. And I thank you for your time.
4 (Applause.)
5 MR. KERRICK: Karen Sullivan?
6 MS. KAREN SULLIVAN: Karen Sullivan --
7 MR. KERRICK: Oh, I'm sorry. Go
8 ahead. I missed one by accident. Go ahead. I'll jump
9 back.
10 MS. KAREN SULLIVAN: You sure?
11 MR. KERRICK: No, go ahead.
12 MS. KAREN SULLIVAN: Karen Sullivan.
13 I live on Manor Drive in Pocono Manor, Pocono Township.
14 A couple years ago, when Pocono
15 Investors came up with their scheme to do the casino, I
16 was very outspoken and said I didn't want a casino in my
17 backyard. I still don't want a casino in my backyard,
18 which, I don't know where this is going, because I don't
19 know exactly what is being planned.
20 MS. JANICE MILLER: Amen.
21 MS. KAREN SULLIVAN: I understand
22 Pocono Investors is a big group. I understand they came
23 because they thought they were going to make a lot of
24 money in the Poconos. I have a problem with the whole
25 country versus city, country farm, country cornflakes
55
1 versus I'm going to come in and I'm going to make the
2 biggest, the best, whatever, because I'm interested in
3 making money.
4 The residents that are here, in my
5 estimation, when I sit back and I listen, they're people
6 that worked hard all their lives, 30, 40 years in whatever
7 industry they chose, and they said, you know what? It's
8 time to leave the big city. I want a little peace and
9 quiet. So the Poconos are close enough to mom and dad or
10 Aunt Jenny or whoever, that still lives back in the city,
11 but yet I can have a peace of quiet in the country.
12 MS. JANICE MILLER: Amen.
13 MS. KAREN SULLIVAN: That's why I
14 came. I didn't grow up in Pennsylvania, I spent a lot of
15 time in Pennsylvania in my early days. I liked it. And I
16 said -- my husband said, it's not that far from family,
17 yet it's a place to come to relax and to have a decent
18 retirement. Believe it or not, I am retired. I don't
19 want to get out there and do the career thing. I'm done.
20 Matzel and Company, Pocono Investors,
21 saw the dollar signs, unbeknownst to us, casinos were in
22 the horizon. We didn't come in here with any invest about
23 casinos, about gambling. We thought we were leaving it
24 when we left New Jersey. We didn't realize it was
25 following us here. They came thinking that they were
56
1 going to make a big strike, make a lot of money, and I was
2 told several years ago that my property values were going
3 to go through the roof. Well, they didn't go through the
4 roof. Matter of fact, they went down. That's number one.
5 Number two, the state of the economy
6 right now, people don't have discretionary dollars to go
7 out to big hotels, to big dinners, to big restaurants.
8 Look at the restaurants we have now. Look at down at the
9 Crossings. How many outlets are failing? They're not
10 even there. Look at the businesses that are here. Oh, 84
11 Lumber's coming. Oh, great, great, great. 84 Lumber
12 folded up. Look at Mr. Z's in that little strip mall
13 there.
14 I understand where you want big
15 business to come in here to make money, but this little
16 community, I don't think, can support it, nor can we
17 support the kind of traffic and the kind of strain on the
18 resources that are here.
19 Again, Pocono Investors has done
20 nothing to increase the sewer, the water, the streets,
21 maintaining anything, infrastructure. You know, down in
22 Florida you go to the villages. You know how they sell
23 their properties? They develop everything first. They
24 have the water, the sewer, the roads, the amenities, the
25 pools, and then they have the little lots and they say,
57
1 come on in, because now, as soon as you put your furniture
2 in your house, you can walk across the street and go to
3 that swimming pool. It's already done.
4 Here we do everything backwards. We
5 strip trees down, we clear lots before we've sold them,
6 sold the property. We have nobody to buy them. We have
7 three properties in our neighborhood that are derelict.
8 I'm waiting for the one behind us to fall down. I don't
9 get it. So, Board of Supervisors, I understand budgets,
10 trust me. I understand money's tight, but I don't think
11 this little community right now can support this plan in
12 this method. Get some concrete information from Pocono
13 Investors before we start turning over everything carte
14 blanche.
15 MR. THOMAS CAMPSON: Yes.
16 MS. KAREN SULLIVAN: Think about it.
17 Think about it.
18 MS. JANICE MILLER: That's right.
19 (Applause.)
20 MR. KERRICK: Greg Hamill?
21 MR. GREG HAMILL: My name's Greg
22 Hamill. I live in Tobyhanna Township, Blakeslee.
23 I'm the president of Pocono Mountain
24 AT V Club, one of the largest clubs in the state of
25 Pennsylvania. I met Tony two years ago. Tony's a good
58
1 man, trying to provide a service for the ATV community. I
2 will just go on record as saying ATV parks like Lost
3 Trails do not work because they interfere with too many
4 people's lives. ATVers have to be good neighbors to
5 everybody and respect everybody's rights.
6 I have advocated, for the last 10
7 years, to build a statewide trail system. At some point
8 in time, I'm going to be talking to the supervisors about
9 this and I would hope that you will be open to the whole
10 idea of building an environmentally sensible and safe ATV
11 trail system.
12 And that's all I have to say for this.
13 (Applause.)
14 MR. KERRICK: Thank you.
15 Carmela Bishop?
16 MS. CARMELA BISHOP: I have nothing to
17 say. I'm sorry I put my hand up.
18 MR. KERRICK: Thank you.
19 Barbara DeGeorge?
20 MS. BARBARA DeGEORGE: Hi.
21 MS. PICKARD: Hi.
22 MS. BARBARA DeGEORGE: All right.
23 Well, a group of us met with Mr. Cahill not so long ago
24 and saw at least rudimentary plans of what was going to
25 happen to the property above the rezoning property and to
59
1 include the rezoning property.
2 Mr. Cahill made some concessions. He
3 agreed to the 100 feet back off the edge of the property
4 before anything was developed. He also said that -- that
5 he would disallow commercial traffic onto Sullivan Trail
6 from his property, and he promised that access to that
7 property would only come through Pocono Manor. And my big
8 one, the one I like the best, is, he also promised to
9 attach these promises to the land in event that the land
10 was sold.
11 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: Thank you,
12 Barbara.
13 MS. BARBARA DeGEORGE: What I don't
14 understand is the idea that a business is out there
15 operating, disturbing all of these residents and nobody's
16 doing anything about it. Is that park -- Diane, you know.
17 Is that park, that ATV park, is that
18 on the property the property to be rezoned?
19 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: Yes.
20 MS. BARBARA DeGEORGE: Okay. So
21 it's -- it's on -- it's illegally there. It hasn't
22 appealed to this board of supervisors for any permission
23 to operate this business, and what's it still doing there?
24 MS. JANICE MILLER: Why hasn't it been
25 closed?
60
1 MR. TED MOYER: Haven't you people
2 been listening? Pocono Township, a lot of this park is on
3 Pocono Township.
4 MS. BARBARA DeGEORGE: This place is
5 on Tobyhanna. It's on the rezoning.
6 MR. TED MOYER: Rezoning is. The
7 park's -- not all of it.
8 MR. KERRICK: Are you finished, ma'am?
9 MS. BARBARA DeGEORGE: Yeah.
10 MR. KERRICK: Thank you.
11 MR. MARC WOLFE: Mr. Chairman, I just
12 didn't get her address.
13 MS. PICKARD: Emerald Lakes --
14 MR. KERRICK: Emerald Lakes, Tobyhanna
15 Township.
16 MS. BARBARA DeGEORGE: Tobyhanna.
17 MR. MARC WOLFE: Tobyhanna. Thank
18 you.
19 MR. THOMAS CAMPSON: I have an
20 additional comment, please?
21 MR. KERRICK: Can I finish these up,
22 first? There's only a couple more.
23 MR. THOMAS CAMPSON: Oh, yeah.
24 Absolutely, I just would like to speak after this.
25 MR. KERRICK: Gil Werner, Emerald
61
1 Lakes, General Manager?
2 MR. GIL WERNER: Good evening. I just
3 want to say the board really -- the board of directors
4 have not met and -- and actually, their original opposed
5 -- they opposed the project changing to commercial from
6 residential is simple. It's a private community, these
7 people move into a private community expecting a
8 residential community. Residential was on the books in
9 the past. And as I said there, they haven't had another
10 meeting since talking to Mr. Cahill and we're still on the
11 books as being opposed to the change, as the board. And I
12 haven't had any information from them because we haven't
13 had a board meeting since then.
14 Thank you.
15 MR. KERRICK: Gregory Pence?
16 MR. GREGORY PENCE: Maybe I should
17 have sat on the other side of the room so I could speak
18 earlier. I've just really cut down my testimony because I
19 don't want to beat a dead horse, but I just wanted to say
20 that, you know, this request really -- request of change
21 is really all about the ATV park. If you read the minutes
22 of meetings and the petition for rezoning, it becomes
23 evident what Pocono Manor's real intentions are.
24 The main -- Mr. Cahill, in his
25 testimony on October 13, stated that the main part of the
62
1 site that is developed will be developed as a sandpit and
2 quarry. The petition of 8/13/08 states in part, in
3 Section 6, petitioner respectfully submits that the zoning
4 map amendment requested will facilitate petitioner's
5 ability to better operate and expand its resort and to
6 better serve its clientele by offering additional
7 amenities and facilities which cannot now be provided in
8 that rural residential zoning district.
9 This parcel is isolated for any
10 significant commercial development. Access to it is very
11 limited, extension of any commercial activity south, past
12 Swiftwater Creek, which has been classified as an
13 exceptional value stream, and the conservation district is
14 extremely unlikely and cost prohibitive. The Federal
15 Highway Administration will not allow a new exit off 380
16 to access this site. The only access is from Sullivan
17 Trail. Access through -- through Pocono Manor just is not
18 going to happen.
19 There are no -- I guess in summary,
20 there are no requirements in the Municipalities' Planning
21 Code to require you to come to some kind of conclusion
22 within any time frame. This is an unusual situation. I
23 ask that you defeat this ordinance. And, by the way, your
24 noise ordinance is Section 155 dash 11, Section Q.
25 MR. KERRICK: Thank you.
63
1 (Applause.)
2 MR. MARC WOLFE: Mr. Chairman, I don't
3 think Mr. Pence identified --
4 MR. GREGORY PENCE: I'm sorry. I did
5 not identify myself. Gregory Pence, Cliff Road, Pocono
6 Manor, Pocono Township.
7 MR. KERRICK: The next one is Buz, and
8 somebody's going to help me with the last name.
9 MR. BUZ WHELAN: Whelan.
10 MR. KERRICK: Whelan?
11 MR. BUZ WHELAN: Yeah. It's a good
12 Irish name.
13 MR. KERRICK: Perfect.
14 MR. BUZ WHELAN: I was originally
15 really opposed to this, but I met with Mr. Cahill for
16 about three hours one afternoon and I really think it
17 boils down to the noise thing. In other words, the people
18 that have come to me -- I'm the president of the board of
19 directors at Emerald Lakes, and the people that have come
20 to me have all complained about the noise. That's the big
21 thing. If that could be abated, then there wouldn't be so
22 much opposition to the idea of rezoning it.
23 I would rather see a hundred feet of
24 trees backed by lines of evergreens than houses. Leave it
25 rural residential, be careful what you wish for, because
64
1 if you live in Blueberry Estates, what you might wind up
2 with is a row of houses along Sullivan Trail, that would
3 come right out to the street. I like the idea --
4 MR. THOMAS CAMPSON: They're already
5 there. They're already there.
6 MR. BUZ WHELAN: No, they're not --
7 MR. ARMSTRONG: Again --
8 MR. BUZ WHELAN: -- as a matter of
9 fact.
10 MR. ARMSTRONG: Sir, one person as at
11 a time.
12 MALE VOICE: Quit talking out of turn
13 over there.
14 MR. BUZ WHELAN: If you head east on
15 Sullivan Trail as you go down the mountain, there are no
16 homes on the left side across from Blueberry Estates. I
17 like it like that. I'd like it to stay that way. Like
18 most of us in this room, I hope that my house would be the
19 last one built on the mountain. I don't want any more
20 development either, but yet person after person has come
21 up to me and said, you know, the idea of an upscale
22 shopping center off of 314 isn't so bad. I wouldn't mind
23 having Ralph Lauren and Gucci and Cartier over there. I
24 mean, this is the kind of thing -- have you been to Pocono
25 Manor? This is the kind of thing that these people want
65
1 to build. We're not talking about Hess Stations and 711s.
2 We're talking about an upscale development.
3 So far, since I've been here, Pocono
4 Manor has been a good neighbor, so far. Now, I'm lucky,
5 I'm insulated. I'm in the interior of -- of Emerald
6 Lakes, so whatever happens isn't going to affect my
7 property very much, but the people I represent have come
8 to me one after another and said, if we could get the
9 noise abated, there'd be no problem with the rezoning.
10 And I understand this guy's problem
11 here. I mean, in the market we have right now, you can't
12 say I'm going to build this on this date and that on that
13 date. You're looking for investors, am I correct?
14 MR. JAMES CAHILL: Yes.
15 MR. BUZ WHELAN: And those investors
16 are hard to find right now. There will come a time when
17 this -- when this economy will turn around and those
18 investors won't be so hard to find. Do we want them
19 building houses along Pocono -- along Sullivan Trail or do
20 we want that buffer and then over by 314 and 940 in that
21 triangle, an upscale parking -- an upscale shopping
22 center?
23 So, I mean, it's not an easy question,
24 but I like the idea of commercial ratables keeping my
25 taxes down a little bit.
66
1 Thank you for listening.
2 MR. KERRICK: Thank you.
3 (Applause.)
4 MR. KERRICK: Olall?
5 MR. JOE OLALL: I'll pass.
6 MR. KERRICK: You pass? Okay.
7 MR. MARC WOLFE: Mr. Chairman?
8 MR. KERRICK: We want take a break.
9 Five minutes.
10 MR. MARC WOLFE: Mr. Cahill wanted to
11 make a few comments, but we can do that after your break.
12 MR. KERRICK: Want him to comment
13 before we take a break?
14 MR. KEENER: Yeah.
15 MR. KERRICK: Now, or let him wait?
16 MR. KEENER: Let him finish.
17 MR. KERRICK: Keep it short.
18 MR. JAMES CAHILL: Okay.
19 MR. MOYER: Time's up.
20 MR. JAMES CAHILL: Okay. I just
21 wanted to say on the record, that'll be in the minutes
22 here, that I did meet with Diane Caldwell from Blueberry
23 Estates and I also met with some people from Emerald Lake
24 estates, and we did offer a couple of things as
25 conscience -- what we feel is conscience developers and
67
1 good neighbors, that we, in the area where the houses
2 front on Sullivan Trail, we would leave a hundred foot
3 buffer of trees and that would extend, you know, down our
4 length of -- of Sullivan Trail. We would leave it in its
5 natural state.
6 Also, I never said that we would not
7 have any entrance or exit to Sullivan Trail, that there
8 would be a car entrance and exit.
9 MS. BARBARA DeGEORGE: You said no
10 commercial.
11 MR. JAMES CAHILL: No commercial. No
12 trucks that service us will be allowed to exit out onto
13 Sullivan Trail. That -- anybody making a delivery or
14 picking something up would have to go back and through the
15 940 and 380 interchange, which is where commercial traffic
16 belongs.
17 And then also Diane did mention that
18 she felt that maybe the hundred foot buffer wasn't going
19 to be enough. We did offer that when we came in for a
20 site plan, if there was anything that the people that did
21 live along Sullivan Trail and Blueberry Lakes Estates,
22 when we came in for the site plan to develop this, that if
23 they were concerned about their line of sight, that in
24 that line of sight between them and whatever we were
25 building in that hundred foot buffer, we would plant a row
68
1 of evergreen trees to further block their site.
2 So we did make those offers and I just
3 wanted it on the public record here tonight. So,
4 Swiftwater Creek is currently an EV stream. It has not
5 been upgraded to HQ. It's been proposed --
6 MR. MARC WOLFE: It's being upgraded
7 to HQ?
8 MR. JAMES CAHILL: It hasn't --
9 MR. GREG HAMILL: It's EV.
10 MR. MARC WOLFE: No, it's HQ.
11 MR. JAMES CAHILL: HQ.
12 That's all I have.
13 MR. KERRICK: Let's take five minutes.
14 (Recess was taken.)
15 MR. KERRICK: You ready?
16 I have two more on the list. I can't
17 read it.
18 Who just signed the list here?
19 MR. THOMAS CAMPSON: Me.
20 MR. KERRICK: You? You have the
21 floor.
22 MR. RONALD MALVIN: Thank you.
23 MR. KERRICK: What's your name? I
24 can't read your writing.
25 MR. RONALD MALVIN: Nobody can. My
69
1 name is Ronald Malvin and I live in Pocono Manor --
2 MR. KERRICK: Ronald?
3 MR. MALVIN: -- Pocono Township.
4 MR. KERRICK: How do you get Ronald
5 out of --
6 MR. RONALD MALVIN: I am asking you to
7 disregard this ordinance for changing zoning and forget
8 about it. Part of my reasoning is, living in Pocono
9 Manor, this is a very unique community, a hotel community,
10 I call it. And since the present ownership took over, the
11 first thing that they did that I feel is very adverse to
12 the welfare of the community that we live in, is that they
13 opened up a Rod and Gun Club. So instead of having a
14 couple of visitors at the hotel a couple times a year with
15 shooting, we have all Saturday and Sunday and other times
16 as well.
17 Second thing they did was open up this
18 ATV thing. None of this is considerate of the people who
19 live there. This is purely commercial venture, which
20 they're entitled to do. I understand that. It's their
21 property, they're entitled to do what they want with it,
22 but at the same time, it's not considerate of the people
23 that live around them. So if you think that you grant
24 this ordinance and they're going to set stuff back a
25 hundred feet from the trees and give all these people in
70
1 Tobyhanna a break, that isn't going to happen, because
2 that hasn't happened.
3 I wrote to them about doing the fire
4 hydrants in our community. If you turn on a fire hydrant
5 in our community, I guarantee you water won't come out of
6 it, at least not enough to put out a fire. And to my
7 knowledge, there hasn't been a home in Pocono Manor that
8 survived a fire.
9 So if you're thinking that this
10 beautiful plan that they're presenting here is not going
11 to affect these neighbors adversely, look at the history.
12 I ask you not to pass this change.
13 MR. KERRICK: Thank you.
14 (Applause.)
15 MR. KERRICK: Thomas, you have one
16 comment? Short? Brief? Thank you.
17 MR. THOMAS CAMPSON: Yes, I just want
18 to clear the air about a few matters. The meeting they
19 were talking about with Mr. Cahill and the Emerald Lakes
20 people, I'm not part of that community. We live in
21 Blueberry Estates. There's 25 or so neighbors that --
22 there's certain properties that are on Emerald Lakes and
23 then the rest of us are now part of Emerald Lakes, I call
24 it a subdivision, and nobody invited us to join in this
25 meeting.
71
1 But my other point that really -- now
2 there's an entrance going to come in and out on Sullivan
3 Trail? Well, you might as well park an ambulance there
4 because people are going to get killed left and right
5 there, there's no doubt about it. It's a blind curve
6 coming right through the overpass. You know, that's an
7 accident waiting to happen.
8 Thank you very much for your time.
9 MR. KERRICK: Thank you.
10 That's the list.
11 MR. KEENER: You want to take any more
12 public comment and then cut it off, or --
13 MR. KERRICK: You want to make a --
14 MR. JOE OLALL: Yeah, I just want make
15 quick comment, Joe Olall, Emerald Lakes.
16 In a meeting that we had with
17 Mr. Cahill, we had sort of agreed that this 100 foot
18 setback and the evergreens and all that stuff would be
19 made binding to the land. And I want to be really clear
20 that should you pass this, and I don't know which way you
21 guys are going to go on this; but should you, if you could
22 please, at least, make that happen, make that binding so
23 that, you know, whether that land is sold, whatever
24 happens to it, that's always going to be the case
25 regardless of what.
72
1 Thank you.
2 MR. KERRICK: Thank you.
3 MR. ART CALDWELL: Pardon me. Art
4 Caldwell, Sullivan Trail.
5 This pertains to Sullivan Trail's
6 hundred foot setbacks. The way the ATV park is now, it's
7 a lot more than a hundred feet. When I mean a lot more, I
8 don't know if it's two, three, you know -- I would say at
9 least double of the hundred foot setbacks. And I'm
10 listening to noise now. You're not taking the noise away
11 from me, you're bringing it to me. You know, I'd like to
12 interject that.
13 Thank you.
14 MR. KERRICK: Yes, ma'am?
15 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: Diane Caldwell
16 again. I just want to add to the statement that Mr. Olall
17 just made with regards to Mr. Cahill letting us now that
18 he would put it in the deed to the property of Pocono
19 Manor, that if it was to sell, that we would have the
20 protections that he's offered, but it would be in the
21 deed. Putting it on record here with the supervisors, if
22 any of you get reelected and the seat is taken and things
23 change, yes, it's in the minutes, but there's nothing
24 really to hold a lot of things to. But if it's deeded and
25 it's recorded in the Monroe County Courthouse in the deed,
73
1 it would have to be followed and instituted by Pocono
2 Manor, and I would like to see that happen because
3 Mr. Cahill did offer that to all of us when we were
4 sitting there at the table.
5 So I would like to hold him to that,
6 and I want clarification on the evergreens to the hundred
7 foot setbacks. I don't want to see our site -- our view
8 site, I'm not looking for little two foot evergreens that
9 have to take 12 years to go. I want to see that my line
10 of sight is protected with 12 to 15 foot evergreens for
11 that line of sight.
12 MR. RONALD MALVIN: It may take a few
13 years.
14 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: If it's proposed,
15 even though I'm still totally against the commercializing
16 of that strip of Sullivan Trail.
17 Thank you.
18 MR. KERRICK: Last comment?
19 MR. RICHARD MAYLANDER: Yeah, this --
20 this is before the current management of the Pocono Manor
21 resort took over. We're all kind of in shock, yet, of the
22 wave of terrible things that happened when the flower mill
23 was presented. I don't know how many people of you were
24 here to go through that travesty, but that was an abortion
25 ready to happen.
74
1 It happened, unfortunately, Bill,
2 before you took over, but it had to do big time with
3 putting an industrial zoned area adjacent to the homes
4 that are over there on the other side of the railroad
5 track and we have to look at it all the time. So the
6 homeowners really got burned, and we're still in shock
7 over that. So maybe that's why the residue tonight is so
8 resounding, is because of what happened with the flower
9 mill.
10 That's all I have to say.
11 MR. KERRICK: Thank you.
12 You have anything?
13 Anyone from the board wish to --
14 MR. KEENER: Yeah --
15 MR. KERRICK: -- speak?
16 MR. KEENER: -- I'd like to make a few
17 comments.
18 One of the things I'd like to -- to
19 show you, the audience, for the record, is, the future --
20 actually, the land use plan of Tobyhanna Township. If you
21 look at the green, the yellow, and the orange, that is all
22 land in Tobyhanna Township that can be developed in
23 residential use, okay?
24 This is Emerald Lakes. All right?
25 Lake Naomi, Timber Trails, Arrowhead, Locust Ridge, that's
75
1 all residential development in Tobyhanna Township. The
2 red is commercial development, or commercial land use,
3 commercial zoning. The purple is industrial, CI or --
4 yeah, it's all CI. We have a little bit of CI in the
5 Blakeslee area, and we have a little bit of CI, as was
6 testified to earlier, over in the east side of the
7 township.
8 The red and the purple is the only
9 area that we have to offset the residential tax burden
10 that we experience in Tobyhanna Township. This board of
11 supervisors has done a great job budgeting and not raising
12 your taxes, specifically this year, and in light of the
13 tax burden that was experienced in 2008, as a result of
14 residential development, that may not happen in 2009.
15 Just to consider the tax burden, we
16 need to take a hard look at this rezoning. If it's zoned
17 residential, you're at one rate. If it's zoned
18 commercial, you're in another rate. Taking away the
19 current land use, we're looking at it from a rezoning of
20 this piece of property into a property that would be a tax
21 benefit to Tobyhanna Township.
22 Would you rather hear a little noise
23 or would you rather your taxes go up 10, 15 percent next
24 year?
25 MR. EUGENE VAN HORN: Taxes.
76
1 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: Taxes.
2 MR. RICHARD MAYLANDER: Taxes go up.
3 MR. KEENER: Okay.
4 MR. THOMAS CAMPSON: Buy my house.
5 I'll move out, then you can listen to them.
6 MR. KEENER: Sir, and I'd like to
7 address some of your comments. You had -- and we can play
8 it back on the record if we need to.
9 MR. THOMAS CAMPSON: Absolutely.
10 MR. KEENER: You had mentioned that
11 you live within 800 feet of the development, but you don't
12 hear the ATVs?
13 MR. THOMAS CAMPSON: No.
14 MR. KEENER: Okay.
15 MR. GREG HAMILL: He might be deaf.
16 MR. THOMAS CAMPSON: I do hear -- I do
17 hear the dirt bikes, and I do hear guns going off on the
18 weekends.
19 MR. KEENER: It was brought up about
20 the accidents. Sullivan Trail certainly is a windy road,
21 not a very wide shoulder on that. I would like to look
22 into the accident history for that particular road, that
23 segment of road. We can get that from PennDOT. It's
24 recorded. I would like to investigate that a little bit.
25 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: I can supply you
77
1 videos. My house is a rescue station for at least 12 of
2 them.
3 MR. KEENER: PennDOT has accident
4 history that is documented on every accident that has been
5 reported on that road.
6 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: Okay.
7 MR. KEENER: And we can get that
8 documented.
9 Ma'am, you had talked about line of
10 sight. That isn't going to affect the noise that you
11 would hear.
12 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: Noise was just
13 one of my issues.
14 MR. KEENER: Okay. Regarding the
15 commercial zoning district, understand that, again, any
16 use would have to come in for a land development plan
17 approval. And prior to that, they would need a
18 conditional use approval, and at that point we could put
19 additional conditions on that property relative to noise,
20 setbacks, buffering, hours of operation, all of those
21 things can be put on that property or that particular use
22 that they would apply for. So this wouldn't be the last
23 opportunity for you people to have a say. We would have
24 another shot at it.
25 Regarding homes next to Interstate
78
1 380, I am a certified planner. It's my profession.
2 Mr. Cahill was correct when he said that you try to
3 provide a buffer between interstates and residential
4 housing, that being industrial uses, commercial uses, and
5 you taper it back. The intensity of the use goes from
6 your high intensity to a lower intensity to your high
7 density residential, medium density, low density. If you
8 think about it, it's a buffer between those high intensity
9 activities.
10 380 went through an existing
11 subdivision. I live in Stillwater Estates. The eastern
12 part of Stillwater Estates was cut off by 380, so we have
13 homes and there was just a home built within the past six
14 months within 50 feet of the I-380 right of way. There're
15 existing platted lots that we can't prevent people from
16 buying and building. The lots are probably less expensive
17 than somebody that's sitting in a mile from 380, but
18 that's the facts that we deal with.
19 My suggestion to the supervisors
20 tonight, and one of the things that actually come up --
21 before I say that, one of the things that come up is, this
22 is a proposed future land use that we have not yet
23 adopted. We addressed it at the last supervisors meeting
24 that we will bring it up and it will be on the agenda at
25 the work session so we can finally discuss this future
79
1 land use, what's proposed on it, what the tax implications
2 are, and what we might need to do to be more tax neutral,
3 in order that we don't have to continue to increase taxes
4 every year, and provide the services that you people would
5 like to have.
6 At this point, I would ask that we
7 continue the hearing, that we don't take action on the
8 rezoning at this point until we go through this exercise
9 of looking at the future land use, finding more
10 information out relative to the accident history, and any
11 other comments that we could take, or maybe we could even
12 take them in writing if anybody wanted to submit anything
13 in writing, or if we have a continuation hearing at the
14 next meeting.
15 MR. KERRICK: Is that a motion?
16 MR. KEENER: Well, we're in a hearing
17 right now.
18 MR. ARMSTRONG: We're still in the
19 hearing.
20 MR. EUGENE VAN HORN: Can I ask one
21 question? What's the difference in the money? If you
22 zone it commercial, how much more money are you gonna get?
23 MR. KEENER: Well, if there's --
24 MR. EUGENE VAN HORN: They pay taxes
25 now, right, for the land, because they own it, right?
80
1 MR. KEENER: At a residential rate.
2 MR. EUGENE VAN HORN: Okay. What's
3 the -- what is the difference? How much more money is it
4 actually gonna be?
5 MR. KEENER: I don't know the specific
6 number, but it's -- Mr. Ferguson?
7 MR. DANIEL FERGUSON: The difference
8 is, a residential cost two dollars per hundred; a
9 commercial cost sixteen cents per hundred to the
10 municipality, for regional police, ambulance and fire
11 preventions. Normally it's twelve times difference.
12 MR. KEENER: Right.
13 MR. EUGENE VAN HORN: I didn't
14 understand that. What does that --
15 MR. KEENER: The tax benefit.
16 MR. DANIEL FERGUSON: Tax benefit
17 would be two dollars per hundred for commercial, for
18 resident -- negative for residential. It's a positive for
19 commercial. You make sixteen cents per hundred, you lose
20 two dollars per hundred, because the school property taxes
21 and education, cost of fire and ambulance and police.
22 MR. EUGENE VAN HORN: What does that
23 add up to for 190 acres?
24 MR. DANIEL FERGUSON: Do the math.
25 MR. EUGENE VAN HORN: Doesn't seem
81
1 like that much.
2 MR. DANIEL FERGUSON: Oh, it is.
3 MR. KERRICK: If we can't take the
4 motion, is the board in agreement that we continue the
5 hearing until our work session, Jamie, or regular meeting
6 where we discuss that? We're supposed to discuss that --
7 MR. KEENER: We're going to discuss
8 this at the work session and then we would probably adopt
9 this, if we're satisfied with the proposed land use, we
10 would adopt that at the June meeting.
11 MR. KERRICK: June 8 would be your --
12 we would discuss it at that time?
13 MS. PICKARD: June 1.
14 MR. KEENER: June 1 is the work
15 session, June 8 would be our regular meeting.
16 MS. PICKARD: We'd be adopting a
17 different ordinance.
18 MR. KERRICK: How do you state it?
19 MR. ARMSTRONG: Is that the -- is that
20 the consensus of the board at this point?
21 MR. KERRICK: To do to that? Donny?
22 MR. MOYER: Yeah.
23 MS. PICKARD: Yeah.
24 MR. ARMSTRONG: Okay. See --
25 everyone, seeing the consensus of the board --
82
1 MR. THOMAS CAMPSON: Could I have a
2 comment, please?
3 MR. ARMSTRONG: Sure.
4 MR. THOMAS CAMPSON: I've been -- I've
5 been to the past three meetings. I asked last month is
6 this gonna be the meeting that you're gonna decide it?
7 And I was led to believe this is the end of it. Now
8 you're going to push this to June, July and August? Is
9 that what I'm hearing?
10 MR. KERRICK: We didn't say anything
11 about July and August. We said something about June.
12 MR. THOMAS CAMPSON: June. Why don't
13 we end it here right now?
14 MR. MOYER: You want us to vote on it?
15 MR. KERRICK: You want us to vote on
16 it, or do you want us to listen to everything and get
17 everything into perspective?
18 MR. EUGENE VAN HORN: Well, let's get
19 it into perspective. That's fine. I'd like to know about
20 the accident thing, how many wrecks. I know that's a bad
21 corner, you know? How's that going to impact the people?
22 A lot.
23 MR. KERRICK: Let's move on.
24 MR. EUGENE VAN HORN: And the money,
25 I'd like to hear the numbers, you know.
83
1 MR. KERRICK: Let's move on.
2 MR. ARMSTRONG: Okay. So we have --
3 we have the consensus of the board to continue this public
4 hearing until --
5 MR. KERRICK: June 1.
6 MS. PICKARD: June 8.
7 MS. BARBARA DeGEORGE: June 8 is the
8 work session or the --
9 MR. KERRICK: That's the meeting.
10 MR. ARMSTRONG: This public hearing
11 will be continued until seven o'clock, June 8, 2009, at
12 the Tobyhanna Township Municipal Buildings, in this room,
13 seven o'clock. Okay.
14 There is a work session on the 1st,
15 but that's not what this hearing is getting continued to.
16 This hearing is being continued until June 8 --
17 MS. BARBARA DeGEORGE: Right.
18 MR. ARMSTRONG: -- 2009, at seven
19 o'clock, right here in this room.
20 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: Can I just -- can
21 I say one thing, please? I want to address the board
22 because Mr. Cahill, again, I want to put him on record.
23 Mr. Cahill told me that the entrance
24 to where the Lost Trails Park is, across the street
25 there's land. And he says that Pocono Manor is dedicating
84
1 that land to the Toby -- to Tobyhanna Township, to put up
2 a ballpark. That's what was discussed, am I correct,
3 Barb?
4 MS. BARBARA DeGEORGE: Yes.
5 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: Am I correct,
6 Joe? That this land across from there is being designated
7 for you to put up a ballpark, whether it be a baseball
8 field, a football field or soccer field --
9 MR. KEENER: The land -- the land on
10 the east side of 380?
11 MS. PICKARD: The west side of 380.
12 MR. KEENER: Or the west side?
13 MR. KERRICK: The west side of 380
14 was discussed at the time of the casino --
15 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: He said --
16 MR. KERRICK: -- but I haven't heard
17 anything since.
18 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: -- opposite the
19 entrance to Lost Trails Park.
20 MR. KEENER: Well, that's -- it
21 wouldn't be opposite the entrance because that would be on
22 the east side, which --
23 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: I'm just the
24 messenger of what was told to me from Mr. Cahill's mouth
25 to our ears, that that property across from the entrance
85
1 of Lost Trails was going to be a park designated to
2 Tobyhanna Township. Number one, I'd like clarification of
3 that, I'd like to hold Mr. Cahill to it and I still
4 haven't heard from Mr. Cahill as to whether or not he's
5 going to put it in the deed to protect the people --
6 MR. ARMSTRONG: Okay, okay. Wait.
7 MR. MOYER: This isn't the form for
8 this.
9 MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, this board is
10 not aware of any dedication of land. It's not before the
11 board at this time. This hearing or that -- the hearing
12 that was held tonight is hereby continued until June 8,
13 2009, at seven o'clock right here at the township office.
14 MS. BARBARA DeGEORGE: Come with your
15 notes.
16 MR. KERRICK: Next item on our -- you
17 want to take this ordinance, municipal ordinance?
18 MR. ARMSTRONG: Sure.
19 MR. KERRICK: Let's move on.
20 MR. ARMSTRONG: There are two more
21 public hearings scheduled for this hearing. The first one
22 on the agenda -- or the second one on the agenda is --
23 (Inaudible Discussions.)
24 MS. JANICE MILLER: Numbers were
25 changed now.
86
1 MR. MOYER: We might as well wait.
2 MS. PICKARD: Just go. I don't want
3 to wait.
4 MR. KERRICK: It's going to be quick.
5 MR. ARMSTRONG: Guys, everyone, while
6 you leave, could you keep it down? We still have to hold
7 two more public hearings this evening. Thank you.
8 The second one on the agenda is
9 identified as the Municipal Utility Alliance Ordinance.
10 It's identified in the agenda as 479; however, in the
11 event that the board passes that ordinance this evening,
12 it will not be 479, it will be 478 because the
13 ordinance -- the public hearing before this public hearing
14 was not adopted.
15 The Municipal Utility Alliance
16 Ordinance is an intergovernmental agreement ordinance
17 authorizing the township to enter into an
18 intergovernmental -- an intergovernmental agreement with
19 the Municipal Utility Alliance out of Harrisburg. It's a
20 group of municipalities in Pennsylvania that have gotten
21 together to try and negotiate a better price for
22 electricity services for the township facilities.
23 What this ordinance will do is, it
24 will authorize the township to enter into that
25 intergovernmental agreement with Municipality Utility
87
1 Alliance and join in on their joint agreement so that you
2 can partake in the negotiations with potential electric
3 service providers.
4 This ordinance was advertised in the
5 Pocono Record on May 4, 2009. It's been advertised for a
6 public hearing this evening at seven o'clock; and at this
7 point, we can open it to any public comment for the public
8 hearing, if there's no comments from the board at this
9 time?
10 MR. KERRICK: I have none.
11 MS. PICKARD: I have none.
12 MR. ARMSTRONG: Open it up to the
13 public.
14 MR. JOE OLALL: Is this gonna save --
15 what's the savings in this inter --
16 MR. ARMSTRONG: At this point, it's --
17 you know, I don't know. It's not a definitive savings
18 amount. But what -- the municipalities throughout the
19 state, to my understanding, is, they're getting together
20 as a large group, trying to negotiate the best service
21 possible for the township. And when I say service,
22 electrical service would be for this building, other
23 facilities that the township owns to keep the cost down
24 within the township.
25 MR. JOE OLALL: Right, okay.
88
1 MR. ARMSTRONG: Not necessarily your
2 electrical --
3 MR. JOE OLALL: Right.
4 MR. ARMSTRONG: -- costs, the
5 township's costs. I do believe -- I think the Municipal
6 Utility Alliance may have an entity that they've already
7 identified as the lowest bidder, or the lowest, you know,
8 entity providing the service because a number of other
9 municipalities within the state are already members of
10 this alliance and we're just in the process of getting
11 involved.
12 MR. JOE OLALL: This enables you to
13 lock in onto a rate or something?
14 MR. ARMSTRONG: Well, yeah. It allows
15 the township to enter into that -- any contract with any
16 suppliers that the Municipal Utilities Alliance negotiates
17 with. And this ordinance authorizes the township to enter
18 into that agreement with MUA, Municipal Utility Alliance.
19 MR. BRENDON CARROLL: Does the -- does
20 the township pay commercial rate? Do you guys pay
21 commercial rate or -- because you're a township?
22 MR. ARMSTRONG: That, I don't know.
23 We do?
24 MR. KERRICK: Yes. We have the man
25 meters on all our commercials.
89
1 MR. BRENDON CARROLL: It's a lot more
2 money.
3 MR. ARMSTRONG: Any other comments
4 from the public?
5 Any other comments from the
6 supervisors at this time?
7 MR. KERRICK: I'd like to close the
8 hearing.
9 MR. ARMSTRONG: Close the hearing?
10 MR. KERRICK: Can I take a vote on
11 that?
12 MS. PICKARD: Um-hum.
13 MR. KERRICK: Do we have a motion?
14 MR. KEENER: I make a motion we adopt
15 Ordinance 478 for the intergovernmental cooperation
16 agreement.
17 MR. KERRICK: Motion.
18 Do we have a second?
19 MS. PICKARD: Second.
20 MR. KERRICK: Motion and second.
21 Questions or comments from the board?
22 Questions or comments from the public
23 on the motion?
24 Call the vote.
25 Jamie?
90
1 MR. KEENER: I vote in favor.
2 MR. KERRICK: Anne?
3 MS. LAMBERTON: I vote in favor.
4 MR. KERRICK: Donny?
5 MR. MOYER: I vote in favor.
6 MR. KERRICK: Hugh or -- Heidi?
7 MS. PICKARD: I vote in favor.
8 MR. KERRICK: I'll vote in favor.
9 Motion carried.
10 Next one, Pat?
11 MR. ARMSTRONG: Actually, with that
12 same ordinance, there is a joinder that you need to
13 execute. I just need a motion to approve John Kerrick as
14 the chairman to execute that joinder --
15 MR. KEENER: So moved.
16 MS. PICKARD: Second.
17 MR. KERRICK: Call the vote.
18 Jamie?
19 MR. KEENER: I vote in favor.
20 MR. KERRICK: Anne?
21 MS. LAMBERTON: I vote in favor.
22 MR. KERRICK: Donny?
23 MR. MOYER: I vote in favor.
24 MR. KERRICK: Heidi?
25 MS. PICKARD: I vote in favor.
91
1 MR. KERRICK: Motion carried.
2 You want to do the next one, Pat?
3 MR. ARMSTRONG: Sure. The next
4 ordinance will be, as I said, because of the change in
5 order, it will be Ordinance 479. It is an ordinance that
6 will amend the Tobyhanna Township Code of Ordinances,
7 Article 2, outdoor wood fire burners/furnaces, Chapter 68,
8 as well as Chapter 115, signs for building numbers and
9 streets of the Township Code of Ordinances.
10 What this ordinance will be doing is
11 amending the outdoor wood fire burners/furnaces ordinance
12 so that those particular burners and furnaces may be
13 operated year round within the township rather than
14 restricting them to certain months in the winter, which is
15 what the current ordinance on the books has in place.
16 And it also will be revising Chapter
17 115, Sections 4 and 8 regarding the time requirements for
18 one, numbering buildings pursuant to the countywide 911
19 plan; as well as the time for installing street signs
20 pursuant to the countywide 911 plan. And initially,
21 this -- the ordinance for the installation of signs and
22 building numbers was to take place, I believe, in July
23 of 2009.
24 What this amendment will be doing is,
25 that, it will be requiring those installations within 180
92
1 days from the date that the county establishes its 911
2 plan, because it's my understanding that the county has
3 not finalized that particular plan yet.
4 This ordinance has been advertised in
5 the Pocono Record on May 4, 2009. It's been provided at
6 the township office for public availability. It's also
7 been provided to the Pocono Herald -- Pocono Record for
8 public availability, and it's been advertised for a public
9 hearing this evening.
10 Are there any comments from the board
11 at this time? No.
12 Seeing none, I'll open the public
13 hearing up to the public for any public comment.
14 MR. JOE OLALL: This is just to allow
15 them -- allow its use during the summer months as well,
16 right? The balance is basically what it is.
17 MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, that particular
18 portion of the ordinance --
19 MR. JOE OLALL: Okay.
20 MR. ARMSTRONG: -- regarding the
21 outdoor wood fire burners. I think it was brought to the
22 attention of the board that individuals who use this
23 particular kind of burner don't necessarily just use it in
24 the winter. They also use it year round to heat their
25 water. Right? Is that correct?
93
1 MR. KERRICK: That's correct.
2 Comment? One second. Right behind
3 you was first.
4 THE REPORTER: Could I have your name,
5 please?
6 MR. KERRICK: Name for the record,
7 please?
8 MR. JOSEPH COLLIER: Joseph Collier.
9 In this -- I didn't know about the original ordinance that
10 was adopted. It says that existing furnaces need to come
11 in also. I don't understand why we would need to get a
12 permit for something that was not a permitted use when we
13 installed it every year, to have to --
14 MR. ARMSTRONG: It's not a permitted
15 use. It's not a use, per se. It's a --
16 MR. JOSEPH COLLIER: Well, it's a --
17 there's no permit needed when we put it in, why do we need
18 a permit now? There was no permit or restrictions or
19 anything when the furnaces were installed, why would we
20 need to obtain a permit for something that we didn't need
21 to obtain one before, especially every year. A one time
22 thing I can see, but to renew it ever year when we didn't
23 need it initially?
24 MR. ARMSTRONG: Right. I mean, the
25 majority of this ordinance was developed by the county.
94
1 MR. JOSEPH COLLIER: I understand.
2 MR. ARMSTRONG: This township made
3 some revisions to it pursuant to the board of supervisors
4 and the concerns of this township, but I believe the
5 permit section was actually in it with respect -- with the
6 draft ordinance that the county, Monroe County, set forth
7 throughout the entire county.
8 It's not -- you know, it's not the
9 type of a use that you can classify as an existing
10 nonconforming use, meaning that you're not grandfathered
11 as people like to say. It's a -- it's an actual -- you
12 know, you're operating a wood burning furnace. It's
13 not --
14 MR. JOSEPH COLLIER: It'd be the same,
15 though, if you burn one inside, you don't need a permit
16 every year to update. I mean, the reason you're doing
17 this is to --
18 MR. MOYER: No, I agree. I don't
19 think they should have to come every year.
20 MR. KEENER: If I could. There's
21 other revisions that are going to have to happen to this
22 ordinance. I was just at the PSATS conference and there
23 was session on wood burners and the regulations relative
24 to wood burners. And one of the things that's in our
25 ordinance is about the stack height. It was brought to
95
1 our attention that we shouldn't be affecting the stack
2 height randomly because it is a piece of equipment that's
3 designed by a manufacturer.
4 And if we affect the stack height, it
5 could affect a warranty of that particular piece of
6 equipment. It could void the warranty and we could end up
7 being liable. I would say that we're going be going back
8 and revisiting this ordinance. I think we're all in
9 agreement that maybe a one-time permit would be it.
10 MR. JOSEPH COLLIER: Right.
11 MR. KEENER: And something in addition
12 the stack height revision, I think we're going to revisit
13 it by the time you would have to come back and you would
14 have to worry about it.
15 MR. JOSEPH COLLIER: The only reason I
16 brought it up is because I saw that you have one year or
17 you could be held, you know, to all the other restrictions
18 of the ordinance, so --
19 MR. KEENER: Right.
20 MR. JOSEPH COLLIER: -- if you don't
21 say something now, shame on you.
22 MR. KEENER: Well, one of the reasons
23 for an initial permit is to identify the location of it,
24 because it is a new thing.
25 MR. JOSEPH COLLIER: Yes.
96
1 MR. KEENER: It's outside, and if you
2 read the article in the paper on Friday, you know, it is a
3 controversial issue throughout the country, to be honest
4 with you. You know, it's something that, to me, we live
5 in the woods, people have fireplaces, they have wood
6 stoves. As long as they're using them the way that
7 they're intended to be used, putting dry wood in and not
8 putting garbage and wet wood and, you know, causing
9 excessive smoke and noxious fumes, then I personally don't
10 have a problem with them, so --
11 MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. Some states
12 actually have passed statutes regulating these particular
13 uses.
14 MR. KERRICK: The question I have to
15 Pat is, the way this ordinance is written, it revises the
16 year-round, but it also ties in the 911 signs, and that's
17 something that we need to act on.
18 MR. KEENER: I don't believe --
19 MR. KERRICK: I just asked Pat if we
20 can split it, and I don't know if we can.
21 MR. KEENER: Why can't we act on the
22 whole thing?
23 MS. PICKARD: I think we can tack on
24 the whole thing and then go back and fix it.
25 MR. KEENER: We can do another
97
1 ordinance to amend the other sections of the wood burning
2 ordinance that we would choose.
3 MS. PICKARD: I think we're all --
4 MR. KEENER: I say we move forward
5 with the ordinance that's in front of us --
6 MR. KERRICK: Okay.
7 MR. KEENER: -- and address that and
8 then have to --
9 MR. MOYER: Just make that adjustment.
10 MR. KEENER: -- write another one for
11 the other issues we had.
12 MR. KERRICK: Does anyone else -- you
13 had a comment, sir?
14 MR. GIL WERNER: Gil Werner.
15 I was just -- the 911 part of that,
16 we're just going to -- you're just going to follow suit
17 with the county. In other words, nothing's really
18 changed. We're just changing the date so that when the
19 county gets their act together, we can follow suit. We'll
20 just -- we're not changing any substance or anything like
21 that.
22 MS. PICKARD: No.
23 MR. KEENER: Yeah. It was --
24 originally was a date certain.
25 MALE VOICE: Right
98
1 MR. KEENER: It would be nice if we
2 had a date certain so we could all change our street
3 addresses and know where we're getting our mail at, but,
4 yeah.
5 MS. PICKARD: We didn't get the maps
6 back from the county yet.
7 MALE VOICE: Right.
8 MR. KEENER: They're in the postal
9 service --
10 MALE VOICE: Basically then, it's 180
11 days -- I'll have 180 days from that point, right?
12 Thank you.
13 MR. KERRICK: Any other comments?
14 Yes, sir?
15 MR. MICHAEL COOMBE: My name's Michael
16 Coombe. I'm in Blakeslee. My parents' shop, which is now
17 me and my mom's, is now in Blakeslee.
18 Unfortunately, I wasn't able to or my
19 mom or my dad be able to confront you guys when you guys
20 passed the ordinance with the amount of acreage and stuff
21 because we were dealing with the loss of my dad. What I
22 don't understand is, how can you guys -- where's your
23 proof of -- why you need these setbacks if none of yous
24 did the research on these? I could take you to my shop
25 and show you EPA approved fireplaces that say they smoke
99
1 less, but they actually smoke more than the outdoor
2 Woodmaster, for my stoves that we sell, is an outdoor
3 Woodmaster.
4 When I initially started, it has a lot
5 of smoke; but once it's going, it smokes less than
6 probably 30 percent of the stoves that I actually sell in
7 my shop, so I don't understand how they can pass an
8 ordinance on something that they don't know nothing about.
9 That's my whole thing.
10 Unfortunately, I wasn't able to come
11 here and speak my mind about that, but the one at our
12 shop, when we start it up, that's when it smokes a lot
13 because we're not there to fill it up all the time; but
14 once it's going, it barely smokes because it has a huge
15 smoke shell. And another thing is, it benefits homeowners
16 insurance because you're not having a fire in your house.
17 The other thing is, the biggest one we
18 sell has a ten inch insulated chimney, which has an
19 interior diameter of eight inches, which is circular. I'd
20 have to say 80 percent of the houses in the Poconos either
21 have a square terra-cotta eight inch chimney, which is
22 more square inches of smoke to come out to burn, than
23 would be Woodmaster.
24 So I don't understand why you're
25 putting a ban on something that's technically, should be
100
1 smaller than what's in most of your houses. That's what I
2 don't understand. And I just don't understand how people
3 can just vote for something without knowing all the
4 credibility, because I know none of yous came into my shop
5 and asked anybody in my business any questions about that.
6 I know I did have a conversation with
7 Kerrick probably a year ago about that, but that was just
8 brief, so, I don't know if that's you guys just voting
9 against that, or if that's something that the state pushed
10 on yous, so that's my question. The state pushed that on
11 yous or did you guys just vote in favor of that?
12 MR. ARMSTRONG: This -- this was a --
13 the form ordinance was prepared by Monroe County, to my
14 understanding.
15 MR. MICHAEL COOMBE: So it's not
16 nothing with yous --
17 MR. ARMSTRONG: It's not a -- it's not
18 a ban. It's not a ban on the use.
19 MR. MICHAEL COOMBE: But I don't
20 understand how you can put a limit on the acreage on it
21 when it's actually -- there's -- the amount of smoke
22 coming out of it is less than what's 80 percent of the
23 houses that have an eight inch terra-cotta chimney that's
24 square. And that's a straight chimney. That means the
25 smoke's going straight out and they're burning their fire
101
1 quicker.
2 With a Woodmaster, there's a smoke
3 shelf that allows it to burn down, allows it to slow down
4 and not burn up the wood as fast; so therefore there's not
5 as much smoke. So everybody's passing these rules on
6 these and no one's doing the research on it. That's what
7 I don't understand.
8 MR. KEENER: Can you take your
9 argument to the Monroe County Planning Commission and get
10 them to understand it before they submit model ordinances?
11 MR. MICHAEL COOMBE: Well, this is my
12 first time at one of these and I was dealing with other
13 things and --
14 MR. KERRICK: You picked a good one to
15 come to.
16 MR. JOSEPH COLLIER: This is easy.
17 What I think he's saying is, I have three and a half
18 acres, okay? I don't know if any of yous know where I
19 live. I cannot meet your setbacks, and I live on three
20 and a half acres. I cannot meet -- there's no way
21 possible I can meet 150 feet from every property line and
22 250 feet from the nearest adjacent road. There's no way.
23 MR. MICHAEL COOMBE: If you actually
24 look --
25 MR. JOSEPH COLLIER: I've done it.
102
1 I've taken a tape measurer and I measured it out. There's
2 no possible way I can do it.
3 MR. MICHAEL COOMBE: If you drove by
4 his house on 940 during the summer, you'd never know he
5 was using it to heat his hot water all summer.
6 MS. PICKARD: Will we be discussing --
7 MR. KERRICK: We're going to be
8 discussing this with --
9 MS. PICKARD: -- the other --
10 MR. KERRICK: -- the chimney and the
11 other amendments --
12 MS. PICKARD: -- in the work session
13 in June --
14 MR. KERRICK: -- why don't we get
15 some -- come to our next work session, and we'll talk
16 about this more.
17 MR. KEENER: I would also suggest you
18 go to the Pocono Record and talk to the editorial page
19 editor about that.
20 MR. JOSEPH COLLIER: Well, we're
21 working on a video and everything for them. They can show
22 it on their news station --
23 MR. KEENER: All right.
24 MR. MICHAEL COOMBE: -- on how bad
25 these indoor ones smoke versus the same burn time on the
103
1 outdoor.
2 MR. KERRICK: Yes?
3 MR. JOE OLALL: Also, real quick, I
4 went to the Tunkhannock Township work session regarding
5 this very thing because they're about to enact an
6 ordinance, you know, they're going through motion, but --
7 and the same thing came up, this 150 foot setback and all
8 that stuff, and I had to jump up and say, what happened to
9 all the half acre lots in Tunkhannock Township?
10 There are a ton of half acre lots.
11 They're like, oh, yeah, oh, yeah, we have to think about
12 that. So I'm just kind of wondering, if this was
13 considered when the ordinance was passed, because Emerald
14 Lakes, that's all pretty much half acre lots with the
15 exception of the estates. So now I'm hearing that no one
16 in Emerald Lakes is going to be able to use this type of
17 heating source.
18 And, gentlemen, please, please --
19 MS. PICKARD: Well, unfortunately we
20 advertised these and put the legal notices in the paper,
21 and if nobody shows up, then we don't get your comments;
22 so we advertise them --
23 MR. JOE OLALL: Right.
24 MS. PICKARD: Everybody has to come
25 here.
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1 MR. JOE OLALL: That's what I'm
2 saying. If at this point, you know, because -- can we
3 now -- and this is why, you know, I try to get involved in
4 this because it is so hard to undue an ordinance once it's
5 enacted; so I'm asking please, can we work towards, you
6 know, making some common sense aspects of these ordinances
7 to make it fit and work for the residents of this
8 township?
9 Forget about Monroe County, what
10 they've given you. I think they don't even know what
11 they're doing with this. They did the same thing with
12 wind turbines, they're doing the same thing now with
13 outdoor wood furn -- these outdoor burning furnaces. You
14 know, they don't know about these things. I go and I
15 speak to the commissioners and, oh, yeah, this is great,
16 great, and it dies right there.
17 MR. ARMSTRONG: Right.
18 MR. JOE OLALL: You know --
19 MR. ARMSTRONG: The only thing I'll
20 respond to that is, this board -- I mean, a lot of common
21 sense does go into these ordinances.
22 MR. JOE OLALL: Right.
23 MR. ARMSTRONG: I'm not saying you or
24 you or you, but there are people out there that will burn
25 things that aren't supposed to be burned in these burners,
105
1 and that's one of the concerns, and that's one of the
2 things that are regulated by this ordinance.
3 MR. JOE OLALL: You know what? Slap a
4 $2,000 fine on somebody when they burn garbage in their
5 outdoor furnace.
6 MS. SUE SNELL: Enforce.
7 MR. JOE OLALL: Hit them in the
8 pocket.
9 MR. ARMSTRONG: But there are -- there
10 are concerns, which is the reason for some of these
11 ordinances.
12 MR. JOE OLALL: Right.
13 MR. ARMSTRONG: It just so happens
14 that Monroe County developed this one and started pushing
15 it through. You know, and maybe the model you're talking
16 about doesn't smoke as much as some other models, but I'm
17 sure there are other models out that provide a smokey
18 nuisance for --
19 MR. MICHAEL COOMBE: But the thing is,
20 the chimney on that is smaller than 80 percent -- it's an
21 eight inch round versus an eight inch terra-cotta or
22 thirteen inch terra-cotta that any one of us can burn and
23 get more fumes and smoke from. I mean, just look now, how
24 many people are burning leaves?
25 MR. KEENER: The comment -- the
106
1 comment that I always hear that it's smoldering, it's
2 causing more smoke.
3 MR. JOSEPH COLLIER: When mine goes
4 out, it stops smoking. I mean, you get a trickle of smoke
5 like somebody smoking a cigarette out of the stack.
6 MR. MICHAEL COOMBE: Are you going to
7 get a reaction from somebody if they come up and and say
8 that thing looks ugly or are you going to pay attention if
9 someone comes up to you and says that thing's smoking?
10 I'm going to be honest and say that I bet half of them are
11 people that don't like the sight of them. You drive by
12 Joe's house -- I hate to say, but Joe is my friend. They
13 see a big pile of wood there, and you see this thing in
14 the middle. It's hideous. I think if you guys were to
15 make a notion with anything like this, you should put
16 something in the ordinance on the dressing or how you put
17 it in your yard.
18 MR. KEENER: Well, and that's where --
19 and I'm a certified planner. This is my profession. I've
20 been dealing with ordinances for the past 20 couple years,
21 and people don't show up until there's an issue. And you
22 look around tonight, there's probably more people in here
23 in one meeting than there were in the past six meetings.
24 And we try --
25 MR. MICHAEL COOMBE: I couldn't come
107
1 to them.
2 MR. KEENER: I'd prefer not to
3 regulate at all, but we know the reality, that there's
4 certain amount of regulation we have to have because there
5 are neighbors that we have to deal with and protect.
6 MR. MICHAEL COOMBE: Which I agree.
7 MR. KEENER: So, I smell my neighbor's
8 chimney when they're burning their fireplace, doesn't
9 bother me, but the next person right down the road, it's
10 gonna bother them; so we have to set some type of standard
11 and, I mean, just looking at it, you'd need almost eight
12 acres if we have -- what is it, 150 or 300 foot setback?
13 MR. JOSEPH COLLIER: 150 from every
14 property line, 250 from the nearest adjacent dwelling.
15 MR. KEENER: Yeah, so, I mean, you're
16 talking three to four acre minimum and depending on the
17 configuration of your lot. So maybe we need to go back
18 and revisit it. We're going back and revisiting the thing
19 by where we were regulating, not allowing burning in the
20 summer, so sometimes you go too far. This group of
21 supervisors is realistic and understandable, and we'll go
22 back and revisit things.
23 You know, we're not trying to be
24 restrictive. There's a wonderful business entering our
25 community, that, again, a commercial development that's
108
1 providing tax base to Tobyhanna Township. I don't want
2 them to go out of business because they can't sell a wood
3 burner.
4 MR. MICHAEL COOMBE: In all honesty,
5 even if you did ban them, I can actually take them.
6 They're certified, because they have a Class A chimney, I
7 can put them in somebody's garage and now they're
8 considered an indoor furnace.
9 MR. KEENER: Right. I understand.
10 MR. MICHAEL COOMBE: You know what I
11 mean?
12 MR. KEENER: A friend of mine has one
13 inside a garage.
14 MR. JOE OLALL: Also, gentlemen,
15 please, also remember that with all the oil furnaces that
16 are installed here, if you stand, you know, a few feet
17 away from the power vent of these things, I mean, it
18 stinks as all hell, you know? But there are no
19 regulations. It doesn't say that, you know, this thing
20 blows down, you need to have, you know, this much feet,
21 150 feet, you know? There's absolutely no regulation on
22 oil products. It's amazing. But here, we have, you know,
23 alternative forms, you know, something that actually keeps
24 the dollar in this country. Please, please, you know,
25 make it work for the homeowner.
109
1 MR. ARMSTRONG: Okay.
2 MR. JOE OLALL: Thanks.
3 MR. ARMSTRONG: The ordinance that was
4 advertised for tonight is just -- I mean, we didn't really
5 talk about the 911 signs, but also allowing the burning of
6 these things year round. So I think it's a step in the
7 right direction for your individuals, and I think the
8 supervisors have indicated that they are going to be
9 revisiting this ordinance to make some amendments to it,
10 perhaps be more amenable to your concerns --
11 MR. MICHAEL COOMBE: I just wanted to
12 voice my opinion because I didn't get a chance to because
13 of certain circumstances.
14 MR. KERRICK: I can appreciate your
15 opinion and your comments.
16 MR. MICHAEL COOMBE: One thing I do
17 want to ask the people on the board, and I have to
18 eliminate Lamberton and Kitner, right?
19 MR. KEENER: Keener.
20 MR. MICHAEL COOMBE: Keener, sorry.
21 Before any of you guys sign this, can
22 any of you guys do any research or learn anything about
23 this? Because I know your cousin has one. So I want to
24 know, did you do any research before you signed this, or
25 did you just sign it?
110
1 MR. MOYER: I read it. I mean --
2 MR. KERRICK: We did some research.
3 We did what we thought was right. We had a model
4 ordinance and we --
5 MR. MOYER: We had to take advantage
6 of it.
7 MR. KERRICK: Obviously we didn't do
8 enough to your satisfaction, but we tried and we're going
9 to revisit, so I don't know what else we could say.
10 MR. MICHAEL COOMBE: I just -- I was
11 just asking.
12 Thank you.
13 MR. KERRICK: Anyone else?
14 MR. TED MOYER: Ted Moyer, Pocono
15 Lake. If you revisit this, will we have a chance to voice
16 our opinion to help yas?
17 MR. KERRICK: Absolutely.
18 MR. TED MOYER: I have one in --
19 working right now. And if any one of you would want to
20 come over and see it operate, how it operates, I'd be more
21 than happen to provide that to you and give you any
22 information I have on that to help you.
23 MR. KEENER: I have seen them operate.
24 MR. TED MOYER: At this point, I load
25 it up once every four days, so how much can it smoke, you
111
1 know?
2 MR. KERRICK: BJ?
3 MR. BRENDON CAROLL: Are you required
4 that when the county brings a model ordinance, you have to
5 do it?
6 MR. KEENER: No.
7 MR. BRENDON CARROLL: You have to
8 follow suit with the --
9 MR. KERRICK: We don't have to.
10 MR. BRENDON CARROLL: Why do you?
11 MR. KERRICK: Well, we don't always,
12 but in this particular case there was some thoughts.
13 Obviously, we didn't do enough research, at least that's
14 the way I feel now, if you look back at it.
15 MR. BRENDON CARROLL: Everything's
16 going to have its own --
17 MR. KERRICK: I do make mistakes, I
18 have an eraser on my pencil.
19 MR. BRENDON CARROLL: We all do.
20 That's how we learn. I mean, you don't want them on half
21 acre lots probably if everybody -- it wouldn't work,
22 you've got to make revisions for everything.
23 MR. KERRICK: Mr. Bloss?
24 MR. ANDREW BLOSS: Okay. Now, you
25 said about green wood, right? Obviously you never bought
112
1 wood from Kelly Cutting (phonetic), number one. But, if
2 you did, or anybody, per se, once they run on firewood,
3 they all sell green wood, besides that, now you're burning
4 wood stove in the basement, right, which I did for years.
5 I burn all night, go to work in the morning, dampen it
6 off. That smokes all day long.
7 With my wood stove outside, once it
8 gets down to temperature, it's on board there and it's
9 burning; therefore no smoke compared to smoke smoldering
10 all day long out in the wood stove; so I don't understand
11 why you couldn't -- it doesn't make sense to me that you
12 would make one banned and not ban wood burners --
13 MR. KEENER: It's not banned.
14 MR. ANDREW BLOSS: All right, well,
15 make a law that we can't burn more wood or --
16 MR. KERRICK: Well, it wasn't that you
17 couldn't burn it, it was a restriction on where they were
18 placed. And obviously, it doesn't fit all the areas that
19 we may want to look at, so we need to revisit it. And we
20 are going to revisit it, and it will be in the paper and
21 you're more than welcome to come and comment.
22 MR. JOE OLALL: Thanks for taking that
23 step, gentlemen. Thank you.
24 MR. MICHAEL COOMBE: I do have to
25 admit, I went to Minnesota where they make the five major
113
1 brands of these, including Central Boiler, which Moyer
2 here has, and because of the high demand on how many
3 people are trying to ban these townships and stuff like
4 that, they are coming up -- trying to come up with ways to
5 lessen the smoke even more. So when that comes into
6 effect, you will have outdoor Woodmasters or furnaces or
7 Central Boilers that virtually don't smoke nearly at all,
8 and I think that would be an issue that we'll have to
9 address when that comes.
10 MR. KERRICK: Thank you for your
11 comments.
12 Can we close this --
13 MS. PICKARD: Can we just --
14 MR. ARMSTRONG: Any other public
15 comment? Anything from the board? Public hearing's
16 closed.
17 MR. KERRICK: Do we have a motion to
18 adopt the ordinance, the amendment?
19 MS. PICKARD: So moved.
20 MR. KERRICK: Heidi? Second?
21 MR. KEENER: Second.
22 MR. KERRICK: Any questions or
23 comments from the board?
24 Questions or comments from the public
25 on the motion?
114
1 Call the vote.
2 Jamie?
3 MR. KEENER: I vote in favor.
4 MR. KERRICK: Anne?
5 MS. LAMBERTON: I vote in favor.
6 MR. KERRICK: Donny?
7 MR. MOYER: I vote in favor.
8 MR. KERRICK: Heidi?
9 MS. PICKARD: I vote in favor.
10 MR. KERRICK: I'll vote in favor.
11 Motion carried.
12 Next item on our agenda, new business.
13 HVAC. No, don't everybody leave. We've got to stay.
14 MR. KEENER: Only the controversial
15 issues.
16 MR. KERRICK: HVAC controls upgrade
17 bids considered. It's item 7-A in your packet. I believe
18 the low bid was Troy Mechanical. Total amount -- I'm
19 sorry. You said something, Heidi?
20 $22,980.
21 MS. PICKARD: I make a motion that we
22 award the HVAC to Troy Mechanical with the low bid of
23 $22,980.
24 MR. KERRICK: Do we have a second?
25 MR. MOYER: Second.
115
1 MR. KERRICK: Motion and second.
2 Questions or comments from the board?
3 MR. KEENER: Hopefully it's done soon
4 so I don't have to open the window.
5 MR. KERRICK: It is a little warm in
6 here.
7 Questions or comments from the public
8 on the motion?
9 Call the vote.
10 Jamie?
11 MR. KEENER: I vote in favor.
12 MR. KERRICK: Anne?
13 MS. LAMBERTON: I vote in favor.
14 MR. KERRICK: Donny?
15 MR. MOYER: I vote in favor.
16 MR. KERRICK: Heidi?
17 MS. PICKARD: I vote in favor.
18 MR. KERRICK: I'll vote in favor.
19 Motion carried.
20 Resolution we took care of Building
21 Code Amendments. That was the procedural thing?
22 Pat would you explain that, please?
23 MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, the -- I was
24 provided -- I think everyone else was provided with, a
25 draft proposed amendments to the December 31, 2002
116
1 intermunicipal agreement among Coolbaugh Township,
2 Paradise Township, Tobyhanna Township and Tunkhannock
3 Township regarding the Joint UCC Administrative Committee,
4 as well as proposed rules for the Building Code Board of
5 Appeals.
6 It's my understanding -- Don and
7 Jamie, I think you guys go to the meetings. It's my
8 understanding that this is here for your comment tonight,
9 to provide back to the committee on whether or not, if you
10 have any concerns or comments with the proposed amendments
11 and the proposed rules for the UCC Board of Appeals.
12 MR. MOYER: Yeah. Everything looked
13 pretty good. I mean, it's just that they wanted us to
14 have the whole board look at it, and you said you had a
15 couple comments.
16 MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, I have a
17 couple -- are there any comments from the board before
18 I --
19 MR. KERRICK: I don't have any.
20 MR. KEENER: They've addressed the
21 issues we had talked about at the one meeting.
22 MR. MOYER: Yeah.
23 MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. I mean, the
24 only -- the only comments I have is, one, the amendments
25 allows the committee to contract with the inspection
117
1 company. Obviously it's subject to your -- you know, your
2 approval once they do decide whether or not and who
3 they're going to contract with, but, again, it enables
4 them the ability to contract with the companies.
5 Now, in the event that you don't agree
6 with the company that they want to contract with and you
7 indicate so in a vote, that, in and of itself, basically
8 indicates that you want to be released from this Joint UCC
9 Administrative Committee. I don't believe the previous
10 one allowed the committee to enter into these contracts.
11 I think each township individually awards to enter into
12 the contract.
13 MR. MOYER: Well, basically I think we
14 still will be because, they can't act on it at all until
15 it comes back. Like, if I go to the meeting, I come back,
16 it still has to go our board --
17 MR. ARMSTRONG: Right.
18 MR. MOYER: -- for us to make a motion
19 and vote on it. Like, I can't do it there myself and just
20 make the vote and then it's done --
21 MR. ARMSTRONG: It has to come back to
22 the township.
23 MR. MOYER: -- we all have to be in
24 with the boards, yeah.
25 MR. ARMSTRONG: But the actual -- my
118
1 understanding, the way this is written, the actual
2 signatures on the agreement is going to be the
3 administrative committee.
4 MR. MOYER: Right.
5 MR. ARMSTRONG: The joint
6 administrative committee.
7 MR. MOYER: Right.
8 MR. KERRICK: You don't feel it should
9 be there?
10 MR. ARMSTRONG: Well, I mean, I don't
11 know necessarily at this point. I talked to Attorney
12 Prevoznik from Par -- he called me today actually on this
13 and he doesn't know if that's entirely proper. I don't
14 know if he's right or not at this point. I, necessarily,
15 when I first went through this, didn't really see a
16 problem with it. He raised a couple questions, mainly
17 insurance, you know -- you know, we have to consider who's
18 going be insuring this inspector who's going out
19 inspecting all these properties. Are we going to be
20 insuring this inspector inspecting properties in different
21 townships? I mean --
22 MR. MOYER: It's no different than
23 what we're doing right now.
24 MR. KEENER: We're responsible --
25 MR. MOYER: That's exactly how it
119
1 is --
2 MR. KEENER: We're physically
3 responsible for the work that's being done in Tobyhanna
4 Township, not any other township.
5 MR. ARMSTRONG: Okay.
6 MR. KEENER: And I would say that's
7 part of it.
8 MR. ARMSTRONG: Okay.
9 MR. MOYER: Yeah. That hasn't
10 changed.
11 MR. ARMSTRONG: Okay.
12 MR. MOYER: The way it's going right
13 now is the same way that it's going to continue to go with
14 this.
15 MR. ARMSTRONG: Okay. The one other
16 thing I notice in the board of appeals, it looks like
17 there's the ability for members on the board of appeals
18 not to actually be a member of Tobyhanna Township.
19 I think --- I know it's hard to find
20 people with those qualifications.
21 MR. MOYER: Yeah.
22 MR. ARMSTRONG: But I think you do
23 want to at least have one representative. I mean, I think
24 you can probably come up with at least one resident within
25 the township to get --
120
1 MR. MOYER: I think --
2 MR. ARMSTRONG: -- on that board of
3 appeals.
4 MR. KERRICK: You may have.
5 MR. KEENER: That's our preference,
6 but if it comes to the point we can't find a volunteer to
7 fill that position, then --
8 MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, I'm just
9 bringing -- I'm just bringing this to your attention. I
10 mean --
11 MR. KEENER: Understood.
12 MR. ARMSTRONG: -- if the board's okay
13 with the possibility that, you know, you may not have a
14 voice on that board, that's fine.
15 MR. KEENER: The first option is that
16 we have somebody on there, but, like Mount Pocono Borough,
17 they're having issues whether they can find a
18 representative. If they can't, then one of the other
19 municipalities can provide someone to fill that seat.
20 MR. MOYER: Yeah. And that was one of
21 the things we brought up is that --
22 MR. ARMSTRONG: I'm just bringing it
23 to your attention.
24 MR. MOYER: Yeah.
25 MR. ARMSTRONG: I want to make sure
121
1 everyone else understands.
2 MR. MOYER: It is such a hard thing to
3 have the qualifications for.
4 MR. ARMSTRONG: There is going to be a
5 solicitor appointed to the board of appeals pursuant to
6 the rules, as well as -- the cost will be beared upon each
7 municipality wherever the appeal is taken. You know,
8 that's -- that's appropriate.
9 Other than some housekeeping items, I
10 mean, I can -- you know, there's an appeal period in the
11 rules for the board of appeals. It says 20 or 30, it's
12 going to be 30. I'm not sure why that 20 or 30 -- I think
13 I talked to Don earlier --
14 MR. MOYER: Yeah.
15 MR. ARMSTRONG: It sounds like they
16 weren't sure because of the ICC.
17 MR. MOYER: Yeah. The ICC, I think,
18 has it at 20 days.
19 MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. I mean -- my
20 recommendation is going to be 90 -- it should be 30.
21 MR. MOYER: Yeah, the UCC supercedes
22 it anyway.
23 MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. And then other
24 than some very brief housekeeping, mainly identifying the
25 intergovernmental -- intergovernmental agreement in the
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1 actual rules rather than just saying the intergovernmental
2 agreement, dating it, whatnot. Other than that, I don't
3 have any necessary comments of, unless the board has any
4 additional ones.
5 MR. KERRICK: Do we have to take
6 action on this, this evening?
7 MR. MOYER: No. There's no action.
8 MR. KERRICK: You're going to take it
9 back --
10 MR. MOYER: Yeah. Wednesday we have a
11 meeting, so they just want to make sure everybody's board
12 is in -- in agreement with --
13 MR. KERRICK: Okay.
14 MR. MOYER: -- with the new
15 amendments.
16 MR. ARMSTRONG: If -- do you want me
17 to do a letter or do you want to let the minutes
18 reflect -- I mean, when's your meeting?
19 MR. MOYER: Yeah. If you could do a
20 letter, we have the meeting Wednesday, so I don't know how
21 quick they can --
22 MS. PICKARD: It was the 14th.
23 MR. KEENER: Thursday?
24 MR. MOYER: Oh, yeah, Thursday. Okay.
25 It is Thursday.
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1 MR. ARMSTRONG: Okay.
2 MR. MOYER: Yeah, Thursday.
3 MR. ARMSTRONG: Okay.
4 MR. KERRICK: Do you have anything
5 else?
6 MR. ARMSTRONG: No.
7 MR. KERRICK: Good. Does the board
8 have anything they wish to discuss? Does the public have
9 anything they wish to address board?
10 Yes, sir?
11 MR. BRENDON CARROLL: Sorry for being
12 stupid. Can you, Attorney Armstrong, explain to me
13 which -- which building code we fall under here? From my
14 perception, there's -- we've adopted both the Uniform
15 Construction Code --
16 MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. The UCC,
17 basically --
18 MR. BRENDON CARROLL: Which is the
19 state law.
20 MR. ARMSTRONG: Right. The UCC, to my
21 understand, is a group of codes, basically. There's the
22 IFC, which is the International Fire Code, there's the --
23 you know, there's -- I can't recite them. I know if you
24 look at the -- if you look at the actual UCC under the
25 state, they actually list a number of other interna -- the
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1 International Construction --
2 MR. BRENDON CARROLL: It references
3 other codes.
4 MS. PICKARD: The IBC.
5 MR. BRENDON CARROLL: But the way I
6 read both laws, it's two different things and requires a
7 different number of members of board of appeals and UCC
8 requires three, IRC requires five.
9 MR. MOYER: Yeah, you're correct in
10 that. You're right. There's only three --
11 MR. BRENDON CARROLL: So the UCC,
12 under my understanding, is, that's the Pennsylvania
13 statute -- or code, adopted the UCC for minimal
14 requirements for construction --
15 MR. ARMSTRONG: Right.
16 MR. BRENDON CARROLL: -- in the state
17 of Pennsylvania. The International Residential Code,
18 which the township has adopted, is, I would say, more
19 stringent than the UCC code, in most instances; so
20 therefore the more stringent of the code should apply to
21 the township and not both, that there's give and takes,
22 there's things that --
23 MR. ARMSTRONG: Right. Are you
24 talking about -- are you still talking about the UCC Board
25 of Appeals that we're talking about?
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1 MR. BRENDON CARROLL: I -- I'm just
2 trying to understand what --
3 MR. ARMSTRONG: Oh, in general.
4 MR. BRENDON CARROLL: Like I said, the
5 UCC has three board members for their board of appeals.
6 The IRC requires five.
7 MR. ARMSTRONG: Um-hum.
8 MR. BRENDON CARROLL: I think
9 currently you only have a board of three, is that correct?
10 I'm not sure.
11 MR. KERRICK: I can't answer that.
12 MR. ARMSTRONG: That I don't know.
13 MR. MOYER: Now there's five.
14 MR. BRENDON CARROLL: My perception is
15 that we have two codes that we're following in the
16 township; and if I applied for a building permit, I have
17 some remedy under square footage and certain requirements
18 under the UCC --
19 MR. ARMSTRONG: Right.
20 MR. BRENDON CARROLL: -- but we've
21 adopted the IRC, which is more stringent, in my opinion.
22 So which one -- I don't see that we can do both.
23 MR. KEENER: Brendon --
24 MR. BRENDON CARROLL: We have to
25 follow one or the other.
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1 MR. KEENER: Let me read it to you.
2 The Building Code Board of Appeals
3 shall promulgate and publish the procedural rules under
4 which hearings will be conducted following the general
5 rules established under the univers -- Uniform
6 Construction Code slash International Construction Code,
7 as revised or updated from time to time, in parentheses
8 here, BOCA code.
9 In the event of a conflict between the
10 Uniform Construction Code and the International
11 Construction Code, the terms and conditions set forth in
12 the Universal Construction Code shall prevail.
13 Clarify it? UCC shall prevail.
14 MR. MOYER: Yeah. They supercede the
15 other --
16 MR. BRENDON CARROLL: UCC supercedes
17 IRC? Is that --
18 MR. MOYER: That's what I was told.
19 MS. PICKARD: Is that just in the
20 building appeals or is that in -- he's asking --
21 MR. BRENDON CARROLL: What you just
22 read, Jamie --
23 MR. KEENER: That's an appeals
24 process.
25 MR. BRENDON CARROLL: The ICC is a
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1 commercial code, the UCC is a residential code for the
2 state; but we, as a township, have adopted the IRC, which
3 is a different thing. That's --
4 MR. ARMSTRONG: What are you reading
5 from, Jamie? Are you reading from --
6 MS. PICKARD: Building Code Appeals.
7 That's the appeals part.
8 MR. MOYER: I know what you're asking
9 now. I know what you're say -- I'm not sure.
10 MR. BRENDON CARROLL: I just --
11 MS. PICKARD: On Thursday, he'll get
12 back to you.
13 MR. BRENDON CARROLL: Are those
14 meetings open to the public, Don?
15 MR. MOYER: No. I don't think so.
16 Are they, Jamie? Are they open to the public?
17 MR. KEENER: Yeah.
18 MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. They should be.
19 MR. KERRICK: They're open.
20 MR. MOYER: Yeah, it is.
21 MR. KEENER: It says it shall
22 permit -- enforce the permit inspection provisions of the
23 UCC and such other construction codes as each member
24 municipality may enact to augment or supplement the
25 provisions of the UCC for and on behalf of the membered
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1 municipalities. So it's whatever we have adopted, and we
2 are the only one that has adopted the IFC, correct?
3 MS. PICKARD: The appendices.
4 MR. KEENER: The appendices of the
5 IFC.
6 MR. BRENDON CARROLL: In the whole
7 state.
8 MR. KEENER: We're special. How many
9 buildings have you been building since the codes came into
10 place?
11 MR. BRENDON CARROLL: Since 2002? I
12 don't know, a little over a hundred, maybe?
13 MR. KEENER: Regulations haven't
14 changed, right?
15 MR. BRENDON CARROLL: I'm sorry?
16 MR. KEENER: The regulations haven't
17 changed?
18 MR. BRENDON CARROLL: As far as the
19 building code?
20 MR. KEENER: Yeah.
21 MR. BRENDON CARROLL: A little bit.
22 Nothing major. It will change terribly, but --
23 MR. KERRICK: Any other questions or
24 comments for the board?
25 We're adjourned.
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1 (Meeting concluded at 9:40 p.m.)
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7 I hereby certify that the proceedings
8 and evidence are contained fully and accurately, to the
9 best of my ability, in the notes taken by me at the
10 meeting in the above matter; and that the foregoing is a
11 true and correct transcript of the same.
12
13 ________________________________
14 Jessica L. Holt, C.R.
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