Before
THE TOBYHANNA TOWNSHIP BOARD OF SUPERVISORS
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In Re: Regular Business Meeting
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Tobyhanna Township Government Center Building
State Avenue
Pocono Pines, Pennsylvania 18350
Monday, April 13, 2009, beginning at 7:01 p.m.
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PRESENT: JOHN E. KERRICK, Chairperson
HEIDI A. PICKARD, Vice-Chairperson
HUGH LAMBERTON, Board Member
DONALD MOYER, Board Member
PATRICK M. ARMSTRONG, ESQUIRE,
Solicitor
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__________________________________________________
PANKO REPORTING
537 Sarah Street, 2nd Floor
Stroudsburg, Pennsylvania 18360
(570) 421-3620
2
1 MR. KERRICK: I'd like to welcome
2 everyone here this evening for the regular business of
3 meeting of the Board of Supervisors of Tobyhanna Township.
4 Can we call the meeting to order with
5 the pledge of allegiance, please?
6 (Pledge of allegiance was recited.)
7 MR. KERRICK: First item of business
8 this evening, announcements.
9 MS. PICKARD: Okay. I wanted to
10 announce that we have spring cleanup scheduled from
11 Monday, April 20, through Saturday, April 25, and that
12 would be Monday through Friday, 8 a.m. to 4 p.m.;
13 Saturday, 8 to 3. And the prices are the same as they
14 were in the fall. Call the office and there's --
15 FEMALE VOICE: Can you speak louder?
16 We can't hear.
17 MS. PICKARD: There's a notice posted
18 for the rates.
19 FEMALE VOICE: Oh. Okay.
20 MS. PICKARD: Also we have an open
21 space public walk scheduled for Saturday, May 2, at the
22 Austin Blakeslee Natural Area on Route 115 sponsored by
23 the open space advisory committee and the nature
24 conservancy. They're also going to have a dedication to
25 the park and that would be at 9 a.m.
3
1 Also I have a letter to read from
2 Mr. Lamberton to Mr. Kerrick.
3 Dear John: I regret to inform you
4 that I must resign my position as township supervisor
5 effective April 30, 2009. We are moving out of the
6 township to Dallas, Pennsylvania at that time. It has
7 been a pleasure working with the board and staff for
8 Tobyhanna Township.
9 Yours truly, Hugh Lamberton.
10 And we're very sorry to accept that
11 and thanks, Mr. Lamberton, for submitting hard years of
12 dedicated service.
13 (Applause.)
14 MR. LAMBERTON: Thank you.
15 MR. KERRICK: Thank you.
16 MS. PICKARD: That's everything.
17 MR. KERRICK: Next item, consider the
18 minutes of February 9, 2009, regular business meeting.
19 What's the board's pleasure?
20 MS. PICKARD: I make a motion that we
21 approve the February 9, 2009 regular business meeting
22 minutes.
23 MR. MOYER: Second.
24 MR. KERRICK: Motion and second on the
25 floor.
4
1 Any questions or comments from the
2 board?
3 Pat, do you have anything?
4 Questions or comments from the public?
5 Call the vote.
6 Donny?
7 MR. MOYER: I vote in favor.
8 MR. KERRICK: Hugh?
9 MR. LAMBERTON: I vote in favor.
10 MR. KERRICK: Heidi?
11 MS. PICKARD: I vote in favor.
12 MR. KERRICK: I'll vote in favor.
13 Motion carried.
14 Next item on your agenda, consider the
15 treasury report bill pack dated April 13, 2009. Total
16 amount for board approval, $565,066.03.
17 MS. PICKARD: I make a motion we
18 approve the April 13, 2009 bill pack in the amount of
19 500,6 -- 565,066.03.
20 MR. KERRICK: Motion on the floor.
21 Do we have a second?
22 MR. LAMBERTON: Second.
23 MR. KERRICK: Motion and second.
24 Questions or comments from the board?
25 Questions or comments from the public?
5
1 Call the vote.
2 Donny?
3 MR. MOYER: I vote in favor.
4 MR. KERRICK: Hugh?
5 MR. LAMBERTON: I vote in favor.
6 MR. KERRICK: Heidi?
7 MS. PICKARD: I vote in favor.
8 MR. KERRICK: I'll vote in favor.
9 Motion carried.
10 Next item on our agenda, solicitor's
11 report.
12 MR. ARMSTRONG: I have a couple things
13 under my report. The first is the -- was the proposed
14 ordinance, would have been No. 478 for Pocono Manor
15 rezoning. There was a public hearing held and advertised
16 at your March meeting. There was a public hearing held.
17 It was closed and then subsequent to that public hearing,
18 we've received additional public comment from the
19 residents of Tobyhanna Township.
20 There has been no vote taken yet by
21 the board. I know the board has -- and it's apparent
22 tonight, that there may be some residents here as well to
23 have some comment with respect to that proposed ordinance.
24 At this time, there was no public
25 hearing advertised for this evening. We can accept public
6
1 comment this evening, but I would say -- and it's, you
2 know, the decision of the board, it may be appropriate,
3 given the fact that the number of residents that have come
4 out this evening and have contacted the township since
5 that public hearing in March, that the board may want to
6 consider readvertising for a second public hearing to be
7 held. Obviously its not advertised for tonight. You may
8 want to consider advertising it for your May meeting,
9 whenever that may be. It's the second Monday.
10 MR. MOYER: Right.
11 MR. ARMSTRONG: It's whatever the will
12 of the board is this evening.
13 MR. KERRICK: We could still take
14 public comment at the end of this meeting?
15 MR. ARMSTRONG: You can still -- if
16 there's people here from the public that want to comment
17 on the proposed zoning change, you're welcome to stay
18 until the public comment session of the meeting. And be
19 informed, if this is the decision of the board tonight to
20 readvertise it for another public hearing, there will be a
21 public hearing held at the May meeting. I'm not sure of
22 the date off the top of my head.
23 MS. PICKARD: The 11th. It's May 11.
24 MR. ARMSTRONG: May 11?
25 MR. KERRICK: What's the board's
7
1 pleasure?
2 MS. PICKARD: I'll make a motion that
3 we readvertise for a public hearing, Ordinance 478,
4 rezoning of Pocono Manor.
5 MR. KERRICK: We have a motion.
6 Do we have a second?
7 MR. LAMBERTON: Second.
8 MR. KERRICK: Motion and second.
9 Questions or comments from the board?
10 Questions on the -- or questions or
11 comments from the public on the motion?
12 Yes, ma'am?
13 MS. BARBARA DeGEORGE: Um, are -- is
14 the board of supervisors prepared to vote on this tonight?
15 No. On --
16 MR. ARMSTRONG: That's --
17 MR. KERRICK: What --
18 MR. ARMSTRONG: What they just decided
19 is that because of the the number of residents here
20 tonight, that it appears that it would be warranted to
21 have another public hearing on the --
22 MS. BARBARA DeGEORGE: Okay.
23 MR. ARMSTRONG: -- proposed ordinance.
24 And that public hearing can't be tonight because we didn't
25 advertise it for tonight.
8
1 MS. BARBARA DeGEORGE: Okay.
2 MR. ARMSTRONG: But it will be
3 advertised for the May meeting, at which time another
4 public hearing will be held regarding the proposed
5 rezoning of the ordinance.
6 No changes to the proposed ordinance
7 have been made. I don't think there's any proposed
8 changes to the ordinance. It's just that given the fact,
9 the number of residents that have showed up, as well as, I
10 think there's still -- yeah, there is one board member
11 that is still missing.
12 MR. MOYER: Um-hum.
13 MR. ARMSTRONG: The board's just
14 decided that it would be appropriate to have a public --
15 another public hearing -- another public hearing on the
16 proposed ordinance in May.
17 MS. BARBARA DeGEORGE: And would that
18 meeting be the voting meeting?
19 MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah.
20 MR. MOYER: Yep.
21 MR. ARMSTRONG: Yes.
22 MS. PICKARD: Would we have --
23 MS. BARBARA DeGEORGE: What date would
24 that be?
25 MR. ARMSTRONG: I believe it was --
9
1 MR. MOYER: May 11.
2 MR. ARMSTRONG: May 11.
3 MS. PICKARD: And we have an
4 appropriate amount of time for advertising because --
5 MR. ARMSTRONG: Right. Right.
6 MS. PICKARD: If we didn't change it,
7 we could not --
8 MR. ARMSTRONG: No changes have been
9 made. It's going to be advertised for a public hearing,
10 but no changes has been proposed -- have been proposed to
11 the proposed ordinance.
12 MR. THOMAS CAMPSON: Just a question,
13 sir. From the last meeting I was under the assumption --
14 MR. KERRICK: Wait, one second, sir.
15 Do we want peoples' names on the record or does it matter?
16 MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. I will inform
17 the audience that there will be a time for public comment
18 at the end of this meeting, but, yeah, if you're going to
19 speak, please state your name and your address.
20 MR. THOMAS CAMPSON: Thomas Campson,
21 114 Butz Lane, Scotrun.
22 Just a question, sir. Last meeting,
23 it was under my assumption that you tabled it to this
24 meeting to have a decision because of lack of supervisors.
25 There was no such mention of another notice or another
10
1 meeting or anything like that. That's the way I -- I
2 understood it.
3 MR. ARMSTRONG: Correct.
4 MR. KERRICK: Actually there was
5 enough supervisors at the last meeting to take a vote.
6 There was a majority here.
7 MR. THOMAS CAMPSON: Right, but you
8 tabled it to this month.
9 MR. KERRICK: We chose not to. The
10 one gentleman that isn't here this evening, he had a
11 meeting in Harrisburg. He couldn't make it this evening.
12 We've got numerous calls from the public, both pro and con
13 for this project; so our recommendation from our solicitor
14 is to allow more residents to view -- or voice their
15 comments, so that's why we decided to do another hearing.
16 MR. ARMSTRONG: Right.
17 MR. THOMAS CAMPSON: Okay.
18 MR. KERRICK: Anyone else?
19 MR. RUSSELL CRAMER: I have -- I have
20 one question.
21 MR. KERRICK: Name for the record,
22 please?
23 MR. RUSSELL CRAMER: Russell Cramer, I
24 live at 12 Park Lane, Pocono Manor.
25 We're obviously residents of Pocono
11
1 Township and there's a number of us here from Pocono Manor
2 this evening who are here specifically because of the
3 operation of the Lost Trails ATV Park in the quarry and
4 the effect that that's having on our community in terms of
5 the noise pollution and environmental damage.
6 And my question is, do we have a say
7 in it -- in any of this or --
8 MR. KERRICK: What we're discussing
9 right now would be the rezoning. You do have a place in
10 this agenda for public comment and we could address that
11 at that time, if that's all right with you?
12 MR. RUSSELL CRAMER: Okay.
13 MR. KERRICK: All right?
14 MR. RUSSELL CRAMER: I just want to
15 make sure that if we stay, we have the right to be heard.
16 MR. KERRICK: As long as I get home to
17 go to bed sooner of later.
18 Anyone else?
19 Yes, sir, in the back?
20 MR. GREG PENCE: Greg Pence, Pocono
21 Manor.
22 Are those minutes available for the
23 March meeting?
24 MS. PICKARD: They have not been
25 approved. They just came in late last week.
12
1 MR. GREG PENCE: They will be
2 available shortly or --
3 MS. PICKARD: They would be for the
4 comments that were made on the record and that was one of
5 the reasons why we wanted to have another hearing because
6 there were a lot of people, such as yourself, that were
7 not here to make public comment. So they -- you would be
8 able to do so at the hearing next month.
9 MR. GREG PENCE: Thank you.
10 MR. KERRICK: Anyone else?
11 We'll call the vote for the
12 advertising for the hearing next month.
13 Call the vote.
14 Donny?
15 MR. MOYER: I vote in favor.
16 MR. KERRICK: Hugh?
17 MR. LAMBERTON: I vote in favor.
18 MR. KERRICK: Heidi?
19 MS. PICKARD: I vote in favor.
20 MR. KERRICK: I'll vote in favor.
21 Motion carried.
22 Do you have anything else, Pat?
23 MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, one thing.
24 Keswick Pointe, the PRD Phase I was approved by you
25 previously. It's come to my attention that for some
13
1 reason or another the storm water management agreement has
2 not been executed by the township. I just need a motion
3 to authorize the chairman to approve and execute that
4 agreement so the applicant can record it with the
5 recordable documents.
6 MR. KERRICK: Entertain a motion?
7 MS. PICKARD: So moved.
8 MR. LAMBERTON: Second.
9 MR. KERRICK: Motion and second.
10 Questions or comments from the board?
11 Questions or comments from the public?
12 MR. KERRICK: Call the vote.
13 Donny?
14 MR. MOYER: I vote in favor.
15 MR. KERRICK: Hugh?
16 MR. LAMBERTON: I vote in favor.
17 MR. KERRICK: Heidi?
18 MS. PICKARD: I vote in favor.
19 MR. KERRICK: I'll vote in favor.
20 Motion carried.
21 Anything else, Pat?
22 MR. ARMSTRONG: Yes. I do have one
23 other thing, the Pinecrest Lake PRD, that was approved
24 numerous years ago, there were a few revisions proposed
25 for a couple of the lots. One of those revisions, the
14
1 time extension to act on that is approaching. There has
2 been no additional extension. The applicant has also
3 indicated to the township, it's my understanding, that
4 they just -- they just were informed that they don't own
5 the property, so they were going to withdraw. We haven't
6 received the withdrawal yet. You don't have a meeting
7 before the time extension expires, so it would be
8 appropriate for you to make a motion to deny that
9 application based upon the latest township engineer's
10 review letter of that plan. It was the Pinecrest Lake
11 Phase II, Section 4, Lot 209 application.
12 MR. KERRICK: Phase II?
13 MR. ARMSTRONG: Phase II, Section 4,
14 Lot 209.
15 MS. PICKARD: I make a motion that we
16 deny the application regarding Phase II, Section 4, Lot
17 209 of Pinecrest Lake.
18 MR. KERRICK: Motion on the floor.
19 Do we have a second?
20 MR. MOYER: Second.
21 MR. KERRICK: Motion and second.
22 Questions or comments from the board?
23 Questions or comments from the public
24 on the motion?
25 Call the vote.
15
1 Donny?
2 MR. MOYER: I vote in favor.
3 MR. KERRICK: Hugh?
4 MR. LAMBERTON: I vote in favor.
5 MR. KERRICK: Heidi?
6 MS. PICKARD: I vote in favor.
7 MR. KERRICK: I'll vote in favor.
8 Motion carried.
9 Anything else?
10 MR. ARMSTRONG: One additional thing,
11 it's actually later in the agenda but I have a couple
12 things that would go with it. I don't know if -- Heidi,
13 do you want me to discuss it now or --
14 MS. PICKARD: Yeah. Yeah.
15 MR. ARMSTRONG: What I'm talking about
16 is, the MUA electricity procurement program. There's an
17 ordinance that would need to be adopted to authorize you
18 to enter into that agreement. What it is, it's my
19 understanding, it's an agreement, it's a municipality
20 alliance formed out of Harrisburg, I believe. There's a
21 group of municipalities that are getting together to try
22 and negotiate the best and lowest electricity prices for
23 the municipalities in that group given the fact that
24 electricity is going up and everyone's been aware of it.
25 This ordinance would authorize you to
16
1 enter into that agreement. It's an intergovernmental
2 agreement, and with respect to that, you need to
3 authorize -- you know, you need to authorize yourselves to
4 enter into that agreement by ordinance, pursuant to the
5 MPC.
6 MR. KERRICK: So you will draft that
7 ordinance for us?
8 MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah.
9 MR. KERRICK: What's the board's
10 pleasure?
11 MS. PICKARD: I'll make a motion that
12 we authorize the intermunicipal agreement for the
13 municipal utility line.
14 MR. LAMBERTON: Second.
15 MR. KERRICK: Motion and second.
16 Questions or comments from the board?
17 Questions or comments from the public
18 on the motion?
19 MS. BARBARA DeGEORGE: What does this
20 entail, that you're voting on, that you have to vote on?
21 MR. ARMSTRONG: This -- what the MUA,
22 if you have it in the agenda, the MUA is the municipality
23 utility alliance.
24 MS. BARBARA DeGEORGE: Um-hum.
25 MR. ARMSTRONG: It's a group of
17
1 municipalities that are getting together to negotiate, you
2 know, the lowest possible prices for electricity for
3 township properties, meaning the electricity for this
4 building, electricity for other township owned properties
5 within the township. And whenever a municipality enters
6 into an intergovernmental agreement, because they're
7 entering into this agreement with other municipalities,
8 they have to authorize it by way of ordinance.
9 MS. BARBARA DeGEORGE: Um-hum. Okay.
10 MR. ARMSTRONG: And they've just
11 authorized my office to prepare the ordinance so they can
12 adopt it at the next meeting. And by that, they can then
13 enter into the intergovernmental agreement.
14 MS. BARBARA DeGEORGE: Thank you.
15 MR. KERRICK: It's not on our agenda.
16 You said -- you said if you have an
17 agenda, you could -- it's not on our agenda.
18 MR. ARMSTRONG: Oh, okay.
19 MS. PICKARD: There's other
20 intermunicipal agreement --
21 MR. ARMSTRONG: Oh, okay.
22 MR. KERRICK: Okay?
23 MR. ARMSTRONG: Okay.
24 MS. PICKARD: There was also the
25 other --
18
1 MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah.
2 MR. KERRICK: Wait. I got -- in the
3 middle of a vote here.
4 Any other questions or comments?
5 Call the vote.
6 Donny?
7 MR. MOYER: I vote in favor.
8 MR. KERRICK: Hugh?
9 MR. LAMBERTON: I vote in favor.
10 MR. KERRICK: Heidi?
11 MS. PICKARD: I vote in favor.
12 MR. KERRICK: I'll vote in favor.
13 Motion carried.
14 Now you can go.
15 MR. ARMSTRONG: Along the same lines,
16 there have been a few things that came up over the past
17 month or so concerning some amendments that -- that may be
18 warranted for the township's Code of Ordinances. One of
19 them was the -- the outdoor wood burning ordinance that
20 you adopted earlier and -- well, actually towards the end
21 of 2008, concerning the time when those can be burned. I
22 think it was discussed at your work session whether or not
23 you want to consider expanding the time frame for that to
24 go through the full year. I don't know if that's
25 something you want to authorize --
19
1 MR. MOYER: Yeah.
2 MR. ARMSTRONG: -- my office to
3 prepare at this time or not.
4 MR. MOYER: Yeah.
5 (Inaudible comments.)
6 MS. PICKARD: One at a time?
7 MR. ARMSTRONG: One at a time, so we
8 don't get confused.
9 MS. PICKARD: Okay.
10 MR. KERRICK: Okay.
11 MR. MOYER: Can't we just eliminate
12 the time?
13 MR. ARMSTRONG: That's what we're --
14 MS. PICKARD: Yeah.
15 MR. ARMSTRONG: -- going to do, if
16 that's the pleasure of the board.
17 MR. MOYER: Yeah.
18 MR. KERRICK: Do you want a motion on
19 each amendment?
20 MR. ARMSTRONG: To keep it clean,
21 yeah.
22 MR. KERRICK: Okay. Motion for the
23 wood burning ordinance correction -- or amendment.
24 MR. LAMBERTON: Would you explain the
25 change?
20
1 MR. ARMSTRONG: The way the wood
2 burning ordinance -- wood burners are outdoor wood burning
3 facilities that some people are using in the area. And
4 the current ordinance that was adopted at the end of 2008
5 sets forth regulations, what you can -- for example, what
6 you can and cannot burn within those furnaces.
7 And in that ordinance it was proposed
8 to allow those furnaces to be operated between -- it was
9 like October through May or October through April, and
10 we've had some residents come in and indicate they would
11 prefer to burn it year round, and what this would do is,
12 it would eliminate that time frame regulation, allow these
13 things to be burned year round.
14 MS. PICKARD: I'll make a motion to --
15 for you to prepare that amendment.
16 MR. MOYER: Second.
17 MR. KERRICK: Motion and second.
18 Questions or comments?
19 Questions or comments from the public?
20 Call the vote.
21 Donny?
22 MR. MOYER: I vote in favor.
23 MR. KERRICK: Hugh?
24 MR. LAMBERTON: I vote in favor.
25 MR. KERRICK: Heidi?
21
1 MS. PICKARD: I vote in favor.
2 MR. KERRICK: I'll vote in favor.
3 Motion carried.
4 You have anything else?
5 MR. ARMSTRONG: The one other one was
6 the -- also in 2008 you adopted a -- an ordinance for the
7 countywide 911 renaming of roads, reclassifying of roads,
8 and you have a date in that ordinance requiring everyone
9 to comply with the road name signage, to comply with it
10 by, I think it was, July 1 of 2009. It looks like the
11 county is not going to be ready in time for people to
12 comply with that date, so possibly an amendment to that
13 ordinance to -- rather than set a drop dead date for
14 compliance, would be to have it a certain amount of days
15 from the county completing its -- its end of the project
16 and providing notice to the owners of the private roads
17 or, you know, public roads, whichever the case may be.
18 180 days from the date of that notice was --
19 MS. PICKARD: It's replacing the
20 number on the individual homes as well.
21 MR. ARMSTRONG: Right.
22 MR. KERRICK: Is that what we had
23 originally was their -- the county's date? We did 180
24 days?
25 MS. PICKARD: No. We just put a drop
22
1 dead date of July 1.
2 MR. ARMSTRONG: Right.
3 MS. PICKARD: Which was a little bit
4 lot longer, but we had anticipated the county would have
5 those addresses.
6 MR. MOYER: Yeah.
7 MR. KERRICK: They'll understand.
8 MR. ARMSTRONG: So now rather than
9 have a drop dead date, just 180 dates from whatever date
10 the county is finished and notice is provided.
11 MS. PICKARD: I'll make that motion.
12 MR. KERRICK: Motion on the floor.
13 Do we have a second?
14 MR. MOYER: Second.
15 MR. KERRICK: Motion and second.
16 Questions or comments?
17 Questions or comments from the public
18 on the motion?
19 Call the vote.
20 Donny?
21 MR. MOYER: I vote in favor.
22 MR. KERRICK: Hugh?
23 MR. LAMBERTON: I vote in favor.
24 MR. KERRICK: Heidi?
25 MS. PICKARD: I vote in favor.
23
1 MR. KERRICK: I'll vote in favor.
2 Motion carried.
3 MR. ARMSTRONG: You want to do the
4 zoning?
5 MS. PICKARD: Well, we had the one
6 zoning, that catchall for the zoning permit.
7 MR. ARMSTRONG: Right. In the zoning
8 ordinance, it would be -- it would be appropriate to
9 include a provision for zoning permit applications that in
10 preparing the zoning permit or considering the zoning
11 permit application, that the applicant not only comply
12 with the zoning ordinance, but also all the other chapters
13 within township's Code of Ordinances. There's no present
14 provision within your zoning ordinance to date to address
15 that. It would be appropriate to -- if that's the
16 pleasure of the board, of course.
17 MS. PICKARD: I make a motion that you
18 prepare that for advertisement.
19 MR. KERRICK: Motion on the floor.
20 Do we have a second?
21 MR. LAMBERTON: Second.
22 MR. ARMSTRONG: When --
23 MR. KERRICK: Oh, I'm sorry.
24 MR. ARMSTRONG: Sorry. Go ahead.
25 MR. KERRICK: Questions or comments
24
1 from the board?
2 Question or comment?
3 Questions or comments from the public?
4 MR. THOMAS CAMPSON: Is this for the
5 meeting for the zoning variance? Is that what I'm
6 hearing?
7 MR. ARMSTRONG: No, no. This is --
8 MR. THOMAS CAMPSON: If you could
9 speak up, because it's kind of tough to listen -- to hear
10 you from out back here.
11 MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. This is -- this
12 would be an amendment to the zoning ordinance, nothing to
13 do with the zoning --
14 MR. THOMAS CAMPSON: Oh, okay.
15 MR. ARMSTRONG: -- map amendment --
16 MR. THOMAS CAMPSON: Okay.
17 MR. ARMSTRONG: -- that -- that you're
18 probably here for tonight.
19 MR. THOMAS CAMPSON: Okay. Thank you.
20 MR. KERRICK: I saw someone else's
21 hand --
22 MS. LEANNA RICH: Yeah.
23 MR. KERRICK: Yes.
24 MS. LEANNA RICH: It's difficult to
25 hear what you're even saying.
25
1 MR. ARMSTRONG: I apologize. I wasn't
2 speaking into the mike.
3 MS. LEANNA RICH: Not you, all --
4 anyone.
5 MR. THOMAS CAMPSON: Yeah, the whole
6 board. Speak up.
7 MR. KERRICK: Sorry.
8 MS. MARIE ELLEN YEVITZ: I can hear
9 you.
10 MS. PICKARD: All right. So --
11 MR. KERRICK: Call the vote.
12 Donny?
13 MR. MOYER: I'll vote in favor.
14 MR. KERRICK: Hugh?
15 MR. LAMBERTON: I vote in favor.
16 MR. KERRICK: Heidi?
17 MS. PICKARD: I vote in favor.
18 MR. KERRICK: I vote in favor.
19 Motion carried.
20 MR. ARMSTRONG: And the final one
21 under my report is -- there's a slight discrepancy in the
22 definition of subdivision and land development in the
23 current zoning ordinance. It would just be an amendment
24 to the definition section of the ordinance. It can be
25 done concurrently with the previous zoning ordinance
26
1 amendment that you just approved.
2 MS. PICKARD: I'll make that motion.
3 MR. KERRICK: So we don't need another
4 motion or we do? Do we need a motion for that or we
5 just --
6 MS. PICKARD: Yeah.
7 MR. ARMSTRONG: No, no.
8 MS. PICKARD: Okay.
9 MR. ARMSTRONG: I'll put it in the
10 same one.
11 MR. KERRICK: Thank you.
12 MR. ARMSTRONG: Yep.
13 MR. KERRICK: Your report -- your
14 report is complete.
15 MR. ARMSTRONG: Completed. Thank you.
16 MR. KERRICK: New business. 2009 pool
17 membership fees, swim lesson fees.
18 MS. PICKARD: One comment I wanted to
19 make, last year we had opened up the family seasonal
20 memberships to Tunkhannock at double the rate of the
21 Tobyhanna Township residents. We did get more family
22 memberships last year and that helped to -- with our
23 deficit. And I was going to suggest, this season, that we
24 open up the daily rates to the Tunkhannock residents as
25 well.
27
1 So I'd be proposing the seasonal
2 family membership, unless somebody has any other
3 suggestions, to remain the same at $75; Tunk family
4 membership at 150; individual, $50; Tunkhannock residents,
5 $60; individual for Tobyhanna, 25; individual for Tunk at
6 35; seniors were -- at 65 and older were $40 for township
7 residents and 50 for Tunkhannock residents. It was 150
8 for the Tunkhannock family.
9 And the daily rates would be adults,
10 $4 for Toby residents, 5 for Tunk; 13 through 17, $5 for
11 Tobyhanna residents, $4 for Tunk. Those under 12, $2 for
12 Tobyhanna, $3 for Tunk; and seniors 65 and older would be
13 $2 for Tobyhanna, $3 for Tunk.
14 MR. KERRICK: What's the board's
15 pleasure?
16 MS. PICKARD: No, that's my motion.
17 MR. KERRICK: That's your motion?
18 Do we have a second?
19 MR. LAMBERTON: Second.
20 MR. KERRICK: Motion and second.
21 Questions or comments?
22 Did everybody hear that okay?
23 Call the vote.
24 Donny?
25 MR. MOYER: I vote in favor.
28
1 MR. KERRICK: Hugh?
2 MR. LAMBERTON: I vote in favor.
3 MR. KERRICK: Heidi?
4 MS. PICKARD: I vote in favor.
5 MR. KERRICK: I'll vote in favor.
6 Motion carried.
7 Next item on our agenda, lawn care
8 proposals for the year 2009. We had five bidders. It
9 appears that -- Ed, do you have the report on that?
10 MR. ED TUTRONE: (Mr. Tutrone shook
11 his head.)
12 MR. KERRICK: M&D Lawn Care, the
13 proposal?
14 MR. ED TUTRONE: Everything's okay
15 with it, other than you just have to award it and we need
16 to -- as long as they have insurance, then they can go
17 ahead with the contract.
18 MR. LAMBERTON: You know M&D?
19 MR. ED TUTRONE: They bid on it last
20 year. I don't know them personally. They're from
21 Bartonsville. They bid on it last year also.
22 MR. LAMBERTON: Their price is quite
23 low.
24 MR. ED TUTRONE: Yes.
25 MS. PICKARD: It's the same that we
29
1 got from the other gentleman.
2 MR. ED TUTRONE: It's a -- it's a
3 younger gentleman that just started in business last year.
4 I don't know if he's got -- but he probably doesn't have a
5 lot of overhead, that's why his price is so low.
6 There was a stipulation when we did
7 have the meeting, the site meeting, and they were all told
8 that any problems, because it's under the $10,000 bid, any
9 problems, we can just terminate their contract and go to
10 the next one.
11 So if there's any problems or issues
12 with it, we can just move on to the next one.
13 MS. PICKARD: We also have this bid
14 out for Keiper Ball Field, the firehouse in Blakeslee,
15 Locust Ridge sewage treatment plant and emergency services
16 building. And then we did get a separate bid for the
17 government services.
18 MR. ED TUTRONE: That's correct.
19 They're two separate bids.
20 MR. KERRICK: I would recommend that
21 we would entertain M&D Lawn Care and also the emergency
22 services complex.
23 MS. PICKARD: The government center?
24 MR. KERRICK: The government center.
25 MR. MOYER: The government center,
30
1 yeah.
2 MS. PICKARD: Okay.
3 MR. KERRICK: I'm sorry. Government
4 center.
5 MS. PICKARD: I'll make a motion that
6 we approve M&D Lawn Care for Keiper Ball Field, Blakeslee
7 Firehouse, Locust Ridge field sewage treatment plant, the
8 emergency services building and the government center
9 complex. Government center complex would be $200 per cut
10 and the total of the other five would be $265 per cut.
11 MR. KERRICK: Motion on the floor.
12 Do we have a second?
13 MR. MOYER: Second.
14 MR. KERRICK: Motion and second.
15 Questions or comments?
16 Questions or comments from the public?
17 Call the vote.
18 Donny?
19 MR. MOYER: I vote in favor.
20 MR. KERRICK: Hugh?
21 MR. LAMBERTON: I vote in favor.
22 MR. KERRICK: Heidi?
23 MS. PICKARD: I vote in favor.
24 MR. KERRICK: I'll vote in favor.
25 Motion carried.
31
1 Next on our agenda, Keswick Pointe
2 driveway layout revision.
3 Mr. Hannig.
4 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: Good evening. My
5 name is Charles Hannig, H-A-N-N-I-G.
6 Two items, actually the first one's
7 housekeeping. We need a storm water agreement that I had
8 signed sometime ago.
9 MR. ARMSTRONG: They just approved
10 that.
11 MR. KERRICK: We just approved that
12 this evening.
13 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: Oh, okay.
14 MR. KERRICK: I'll sign off on it.
15 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: And I'll put it
16 on record. Okay?
17 Next item was, I sent a communication.
18 I don't know whether everyone got my e-mail, but let me
19 give you a graphic, we got graphics, and then talk to the
20 issue. There's A, B and C.
21 Do you need a copy?
22 THE REPORTER: Yeah, I'll take a copy.
23 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: Last day, you may
24 recall we were talking about the debate about trying to
25 avoid adding to the right-hand side of the driveway going
32
1 into the treatment plant off of Keswick Drive. That's
2 illustrated in Example A. And that would open up the
3 throat of the driveway allowing more visual impact looking
4 back towards the treatment plant, which we're attempting
5 to screen.
6 I had mentioned it, and I guess John
7 was going to go out with Bob and look at the situation,
8 and I guess they did because I received B, you know, via
9 e-mail, and I know that I had said I'd be willing to help
10 out with light amount of work. The inside of that would
11 work, but what was sent to me was all this darkened
12 outline on the sewer treatment plant site, which certainly
13 wasn't what I was entertaining. And that's some -- I
14 would say close to -- I think I calculated at one point,
15 was 15 foot wide and what Bob's looking for, quite
16 honestly, is certainly out of the scope, in my opinion,
17 but it estimates some 450 feet of 15 foot driveway with,
18 you know, a cloth required underneath. I believe it was
19 looking for a -- basically geogrid, plus the 2A stone,
20 PennDOT.
21 But more importantly, it -- it
22 traverses over areas of grade differential, which would
23 mean the base would have to be brought up 60 inches and
24 graded to meet his 5 percent maximum grade. Plus he's
25 asked us to apply the, you know, vehicle layout, you know,
33
1 software. And when you do, without even employing that, I
2 know those were tight radiuses, won't work for a
3 tractor-trailer; so I know it's going to expand even
4 beyond --
5 MR. MOYER: Um-hum.
6 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: What Bob has
7 illustrated here.
8 Now, I mean, I don't -- I don't know
9 if you discussed this before he energetically sent it to
10 me.
11 MR. KERRICK: What we -- what we were
12 hoping -- there's two things we were hoping for, is
13 whatever the dollar amount was for the widening of A --
14 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: Um-hum.
15 MR. KERRICK: -- on the throat, the
16 pro rata share for that, and also I'd ask you if you could
17 run the AutoTURN on these particular turns to see how
18 close it would be.
19 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: Okay.
20 MR. KERRICK: I don't think it was our
21 intent to -- for the whole road, unless you're so willing.
22 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: Well, no, but
23 that -- for whatever reason, that detail was omitted from
24 the communication.
25 MR. KERRICK: I understand that. And
34
1 I got your e-mail Friday, but what possibly we -- if you
2 would agree to that amount, then we would just take it in
3 here and put a hammerhead for the time being.
4 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: Sure. I mean, if
5 that's --
6 MR. KERRICK: I mean, that may work,
7 but we --
8 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: That's fine.
9 MR. ERRICK: -- don't have any way to
10 run AutoTURN.
11 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: Right.
12 MR. KERRICK: And if they would just
13 give some sort of illustration on a W-B 50 or smaller --
14 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: Right.
15 MR. KERRICK: -- if that would
16 accommodate that, that's all we're asking.
17 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: Yeah. I've
18 talked to my engineer, he can run that, but just looking
19 at it quickly, they said we know it's going to have to
20 expand in order to make those radiuses. So, you know,
21 I'll have him take this idea and run that in the scheme of
22 things to show you what it would take to do it, but --
23 MR. KERRICK: That was --
24 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: Quite an
25 undertaking.
35
1 MR. KERRICK: That was my
2 understanding. Obviously it's up to the rest of the
3 board, if they would entertain that.
4 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: I feel better
5 already.
6 Item C, if you look at that, this is
7 another attempt of mine to perhaps realign that extra
8 little spur there and actually create two driveways going
9 in. The notion here being that if I take it out further
10 and move it down to that bend, they can go past the
11 driveway and back in at less of an angle and be able to
12 pretty much maintain the tractor-trailer in the incoming
13 lane.
14 The concern that Bob had before is
15 when you back in, the cab has to move over into the
16 opposing traffic momentarily to make the back-up.
17 Now, this is not going to be a major
18 thoroughfare. Similar projects that I've done with like
19 amount of residents, you know, it's an occasional thing,
20 you know, maybe one every couple of minutes, and it may
21 very well never even stop a car (inaudible) back again for
22 months; but if this would accommodate it, what this does,
23 if you look at the alignment, when someone drives by,
24 looking this way, you can't look down the pike into -- you
25 know, and coming this way, you can't look down.
36
1 And I've said numerous times it's one
2 of a the nicest looking treatment plants I've ever seen,
3 but if I were on your side of the table and you were on
4 mine and you were the applicant, you'd be saying this is a
5 commercial use, we want you to screen it. I'm willing to
6 screen it for the township at my expense and the shrubbery
7 here, I think, will be, you know, a pretty good price tag
8 to do it, but I think it's worthy of doing it only because
9 it's the thing that welcomes you home every evening, the
10 thing that sends you off every morning. And I'd rather
11 make it look nice. With this little vignette of
12 landscaping, we could even move the sign out there and
13 give it a little bit more presence and perhaps make it
14 look like an entrance to an estate rather than a treatment
15 plant.
16 So I'm not necessarily looking for an
17 answer for this layout tonight. If you wish to discuss it
18 amongst yourselves. I'm just trying to come up with
19 another remedy that would give us the same thing. If your
20 preference is to illuminate that piece, then I'm willing
21 to build here in favor of taking that material and putting
22 it in like John said, to contribute it towards the start
23 of a new design that would give you a hammerhead to maybe
24 pull inside and back around and back down, that's fine
25 too; but you know, this is just another way of looking at
37
1 the same problem.
2 MR. MOYER: Has Bob seen this?
3 MR. KERRICK: Bob hasn't seen this.
4 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: I keep forgetting
5 that you don't bring him to this meeting so -- just to
6 make other arrangements.
7 MR. KERRICK: Mr. Hannig, what do you
8 have over in this area, exactly? There would be no way
9 that they can enter anything over in this area.
10 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: This is our
11 amenities, are over in here.
12 MS. PICKARD: Where your mailbox is?
13 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: Mailboxes,
14 playground --
15 MR. KERRICK: There's no way you could
16 put a driveway --
17 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: Through that?
18 MR. KERRICK: If you wanted to just --
19 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: I'd have to look
20 at the whole plan. I mean, that comes, really --
21 MR. KERRICK: Plus you'd be going over
22 a force main there. Never mind.
23 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: Well, the force
24 main --
25 MR. KERRICK: There's a force main
38
1 right here.
2 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: I don't think
3 that force main is a plant -- yes, it is.
4 MR. KERRICK: Yeah.
5 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: That's right.
6 MR. KERRICK: Do we need to approve
7 this --
8 MS. PICKARD: We need to approve --
9 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: Is there a reason
10 you're doing that? You're trying to open it up for
11 other --
12 MR. KERRICK: It's very difficult to
13 get through this area.
14 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: Um-hum.
15 MR. KERRICK: We're trying to come up
16 with alternatives for sludge removal.
17 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: Because it's
18 tight or --
19 MR. KERRICK: Yeah, it is back right
20 alongside the building on the one side, so --
21 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: Right. It seems
22 like it would be a lot better to just widen this out than
23 it is to --
24 MR. KERRICK: Transformer and light
25 poles.
39
1 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: Oh. Transformer
2 and light poles?
3 MR. KERRICK: Yes. On a pad.
4 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: Okay.
5 MR. KERRICK: I didn't design this.
6 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: No. Well, it's
7 tough because, you know, when you first do it, it works,
8 but then as you start to look at other issues --
9 MR. KERRICK: Do we need an approval?
10 MS. PICKARD: Well, we need an
11 approval on the --
12 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: I need approval
13 to get, at least --
14 MS. PICKARD: -- for -- yeah.
15 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: So I can get
16 started.
17 MS. PICKARD: It looks like most of
18 these, with the exception of C, that it's the same
19 entranceway that we -- we're not changing that portion, so
20 I don't know if we can approve this and then still discuss
21 this later on or --
22 MR. KERRICK: Is that a possibility?
23 MR. ARMSTRONG: You just want to
24 approve the actual entrance?
25 MR. KERRICK: Yeah. He needs approval
40
1 to continue with the entrance.
2 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: There was minor
3 revisions to the original plan because of dimensioning.
4 What we had to do is, we had to pull back to move these
5 via PennDOT all the way to the rear of the commercial lot
6 here, then we aligned these. We had to pull the island
7 back and everything else, then we had to taper that down
8 quickly because of this driveway.
9 MR. ARMSTRONG: Bob's already
10 approved?
11 MR. KERRICK: He had, no -- the only
12 problem -- the only issue we had was -- was the entrance
13 into waste water treatment --
14 MS. PICKARD: It was tight.
15 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: Yeah. I think
16 there's probably several ways that we can --
17 MR. ARMSTRONG: Motion to approve that
18 subject on the applicant and the township agreeing to
19 somehow resolve the issues to the sewer treatment plant.
20 MR. KERRICK: Whatever the board's
21 pleasure is.
22 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: Just to the
23 extent of the easterly most portion of the boulevard, I
24 guess, would be that point to move forward if that is
25 approved.
41
1 MS. PICKARD: Is this amendment to the
2 PRD or to Phase I?
3 MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. The entrance
4 is --
5 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: Phase I.
6 MR. ARMSTRONG: -- Phase I. Not to
7 the extent it revises any of the sheets, the recordable
8 plan, but -- I mean, that will have to --
9 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: Revised sheets.
10 MR. ARMSTRONG: Right.
11 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: We're trying to
12 gather them now. We're going to have to revise the
13 electrical plans because PPL just gave us their final.
14 That's being worked on as we speak. What we'll do is --
15 this is, I think -- sewer plans are being revised because
16 they reflect gravity, not pressure, so we're going to have
17 a number of sheets that are gonna have --
18 MR. ARMSTRONG: All for Phase I?
19 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: For the whole
20 development, but for Phase I it will affect Phase I and
21 the electrical sheets are like exchange items. This one
22 comes out and this one comes in.
23 MR. ARMSTRONG: Okay.
24 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: There are
25 revisions.
42
1 MS. PICKARD: We call this a driveway
2 layout revision?
3 I'd make a motion that we approve the
4 Keswick Pointe driveway layout revision subject to the
5 approval of the treatment plant entrance.
6 MR. KERRICK: Satisfactory, Pat?
7 MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, subject to the
8 applicant and the township working out the driveway
9 entrance to the sewer treatment plant.
10 MS. PICKARD: So moved.
11 MR. MOYER: Second.
12 MR. KERRICK: Motion and second.
13 Questions or comments from the board?
14 Questions or comments from the public?
15 Call the vote.
16 Donny?
17 MR. MOYER: I vote in favor.
18 MR. KERRICK: Hugh?
19 MR. LAMBERTON: I vote in favor.
20 MR. KERRICK: Heidi?
21 MS. PICKARD: I vote in favor.
22 MR. KERRICK: I'll vote in favor.
23 Anything else, Mr. Hannig?
24 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: I'll take a look
25 at this approach over here to see if there's something
43
1 that makes sense for us to get you in and then --
2 MS. PICKARD: Have Bob look at this.
3 MR. KERRICK: If you're available --
4 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: Also to --
5 MS. PICKARD: He can go out there.
6 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: -- this ran to
7 see if it creates any problems that maybe make this look
8 like a better brook.
9 MR. KERRICK: Thank you.
10 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: Thank you.
11 And the storm water agreement will
12 be --
13 MR. ARMSTRONG: Signed and you'll get
14 the original copy.
15 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: Sent to me?
16 MR. ARMSTRONG: Because you'll have to
17 record it, right.
18 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: Okay. I'll put
19 it on record. Okay. Thank you.
20 MR. KERRICK: Next item on our agenda,
21 Coolbaugh Township/Tobyhanna Township Intermunicipal
22 Agreement, compost facility.
23 Could you explain that, Heidi, please?
24 MS. PICKARD: I'd prefer that you did.
25 MR. KERRICK: Basically it's a
44
1 intermunicipal agreement for Coolbaugh Township and Toby
2 Township to work together on a compost facility, which
3 they already have in operation.
4 MS. PICKARD: The residents can bring
5 their leaves over there --
6 MR. KERRICK: Correct.
7 MS. PICKARD: I'll make a motion we
8 approve the intermunicipal agreement for leaf composting
9 with Coolbaugh Township.
10 MR. KERRICK: That has to be done by
11 ordinance?
12 You have to authorize -- your motion
13 should include our solicitor to authorize and our
14 solicitor to draft an ordinance.
15 MR. ARMSTRONG: To authorize -- it's
16 an intergovernmental agreement?
17 MR. KERRICK: Yes.
18 MS. PICKARD: It is. We have another
19 one with them that we didn't authorize by ordinance also,
20 for the grinder.
21 MR. KERRICK: Several years ago
22 Tunkhannock Township, Coolbaugh and Toby are in an
23 intermunicipal agreement for the grinder, green waste,
24 trees, et cetera. I'm sure that one was not done by
25 ordinance. If --
45
1 MS. PICKARD: They needed this --
2 MR. KERRICK: You want to review it
3 and do it together?
4 MS. PICKARD: They were in a hurry to
5 get this back. DCED wanted it immediately.
6 MR. ARMSTRONG: Okay.
7 MS. PICKARD: But I'll include the
8 ordinance in my motion.
9 MR. ARMSTRONG: Include the ordinance
10 authorizing --
11 MR. KERRICK: You amend the motion?
12 MS. PICKARD: I amend.
13 MR. KERRICK: Do we have a second?
14 MR. LAMBERTON: Second.
15 MR. KERRICK: Motion and second.
16 Questions or comments from the board?
17 Questions or comments from the public?
18 Call the vote.
19 Donny?
20 MR. MOYER: I vote in favor.
21 MR. KERRICK: Hugh?
22 MR. LAMBERTON: I vote in favor.
23 MR. KERRICK: Heidi?
24 MS. PICKARD: I vote in favor.
25 MR. KERRICK: I'll vote in favor.
46
1 Next item on our agenda, Keystone
2 Opportunity Expansion Zone, New Ventures Park.
3 MR. DENNIS NOONAN: Good evening,
4 ladies and gentlemen.
5 MR. KERRICK: Good evening.
6 MR. DENNIS NOONAN: I'm going to set
7 myself over here so I can somewhat address everyone in
8 attendance.
9 MR. KERRICK: Sure.
10 MS. BARBARA DeGEORGE: Thank you.
11 MR. DENNIS NOONAN: My name is Dennis
12 Noonan. I'm with the Pocono Mountains Economic
13 Development Corporation, and on behalf of the corporation
14 I'd like to thank you for giving us the opportunity to
15 speak to you tonight about Keystone Opportunity Zones,
16 also known by the acronym of KOZs.
17 Now, I had a powerpoint presentation,
18 and due to last minute technical difficulties, I wasn't
19 able to set it up for you tonight, but I did provide you
20 with larger presentations at least for the board here so
21 you're not straining your eyes trying to look at the
22 original I provided to you.
23 To give you a little history on KOZs,
24 the original legislation was passed back in 1998 and its
25 intent was to provide an incentive to property owners or
47
1 developers to do projects, the incentive being that they
2 would receive tax abatements. And those tax abatements
3 pretty much would cover almost all of state taxes and also
4 pretty much all of your local taxes. And it was designed
5 to provide the incentive for properties that, by
6 definition, are blighted, underutilized, obsolete or
7 abandoned.
8 So in 19 -- 2008, the legislature
9 realized that these original KOZs were going to sunset, or
10 starting to expire in December of 2008. So the
11 legislature, they had hearings, they had studies done, and
12 what they found out was that the Keystone Opportunity Zone
13 program, overall, across the state, had been very
14 successful. It was a very successful program. And with
15 that, they reauthorized, essentially reauthorized the
16 legislation, and that gave them an opportunity to perhaps
17 improve it a little bit, maybe close some loopholes and
18 make some changes that were needed to make the
19 reauthorization a better -- a better bill.
20 So with that said, what we're going to
21 do is, I'm going to start on Page 4 of the presentation
22 here because what we're talking about is, we're looking to
23 establish a new Keystone Opportunity Zone in the New
24 Ventures Park. And one of the changes that they made was,
25 well, first they authorized the establishing -- the
48
1 establishment of 15 new KOZ zones, which is what we will
2 be applying for. We'll be making application to
3 Harrisburg to establish -- to get one of those 15 new
4 zones across the Commonwealth.
5 Some of the criteria, the zone can't
6 be less than 10 acres, but it can't exceed 350 acres.
7 And, again, the definitions for what qualifies --
8 underutilized, deteriorated, et cetera -- those
9 definitions are still in place. And then there's another
10 criteria, if you had a -- a company in your jurisdiction
11 that -- that was going to retain 1400 jobs and make an
12 investment of $750,000,000, they would be immediately
13 qualified for a KOZ, but unfortunately we don't have any
14 -- anything quite like that.
15 The other significant change that they
16 made to the legislation was they now allowed what they
17 call PILOTs, which is an acronym for payments in lieu of
18 taxes. And essentially the taxing body, we go into an
19 agreement with the property owner whereby the taxing body
20 could continue to collect real estate taxes, which
21 essentially that's what we're talking about, real estate
22 taxes, the real estate taxes on the year prior to the
23 taxing body, authorizing -- up to 110 percent actually of
24 the real estate taxes currently being collected on the
25 property.
49
1 That was not in place in the written
2 legislation, and unfortunately what happened was,
3 properties were placed into the Keystone Opportunity Zone
4 program and there was no incentive on either side to do
5 anything with these properties. Unfortunately some
6 property owners just essentially sat, collected the
7 benefits, and no project was ever done. And here we are
8 10 years later and some of these properties, you know,
9 nothing's been done. So this is another change that
10 helped improve the legislation.
11 So essentially, like I said, that --
12 that's something that the township would go into with the
13 property owner. It's a written agreement. What some of
14 the taxing bodies are doing now is, since this is new,
15 what they're doing is they're incorporating the PILOT into
16 the resolution that would -- you know, that you'll need to
17 pass. And that's actually incorporated into the
18 resolution, so you're not going to end up in any kind of
19 negotiation with property owners. It's already -- it will
20 be set and done and it will just be a part of the process,
21 so you won't have to, you know, go through that.
22 Now, if we move to Page 6, benefits of
23 KOZs, obviously job creation is number one; spin-offs from
24 a -- from an original -- from the original project. You
25 know, we're looking -- certainly we would be looking for
50
1 projects, large projects similar to, say, the Johnson and
2 Johnson distribution facility, the Walmart, those kind of
3 projects. Those are the things that we consider to be
4 home runs, so to speak. And then you get spin-offs,
5 support services, ancillary businesses off of that.
6 In addition, you're going to get
7 infrastructure upgrades, not necessarily just with the
8 project, but off-site infrastructure are generally part of
9 large projects; road improvements, infrastructure as far
10 as sewer, water, et cetera. So those are all other
11 benefits that come along with it.
12 And the other big benefit with
13 Keystone Opportunity Zone is even though you're getting
14 the abatement, the developer, the owner's getting the
15 abatement, it's guaranteed future tax base. And -- and
16 we'll see that illustrated in a moment, but it's also, you
17 get an immediate earned income tax generated off of that.
18 That's one thing that isn't abated, earned income tax.
19 All the taxing bodies would get their cut of that as the
20 project -- as the work force comes in for that project,
21 that's an immediate tax benefit. And, again, we'll see
22 that illustrated in a moment.
23 Our neighbors to the west, Schuylkill,
24 Luzerne, Lackawanna, they took the original KOZ program
25 and they really ran with it. And it's -- if you want to
51
1 see an example of how it's supposed to run, they're the
2 ones to go see. Can Do -- the Can Do Corporation is
3 essentially the (inaudible) corporation for the Hazleton
4 area. On Page 7, you'll see what they did originally was,
5 they placed 1500 acres into the KOZ. That's what the
6 original legislation allowed, up to 1500 acres. They did
7 that. It ultimately resulted in 7,000,000 square feet of
8 construction, 4300 jobs created, and then a total
9 investment of real estate construction, the whole ball of
10 wax, huge number, $579,000,000 for the Hazleton area.
11 When you look at the real estate
12 taxes, in January of 1999, that 1500 acres was generating
13 $53,000 in real estate taxes. When their KOZs -- and the
14 majority of KOZs expire in December of 2010. When their
15 KOZs expire, come January 1, 2011, there'll be 4.8 million
16 dollars in real estate taxes generated off of those
17 projects. So that's the guaranteed future tax benefit.
18 And as far as the immediate wage --
19 immediate wage tax creation, they did an analysis, you
20 know, they have some estimates here, but I think they're
21 pretty accurate, using an estimated payroll annual salary
22 of $29,700. So it's 4300 jobs that were created, that's
23 127 million dollars in payroll. Wage taxes that come off
24 of that, one and a half percent, 1.9 million dollars, and
25 then everybody, you know, the school district, et cetera,
52
1 takes, you know, their cut of the -- of the EIT.
2 So, if we look at the next page, we
3 kind of illustrate what we just talked about here, just
4 kind of in a very simple graph. If you look at the first
5 two years, of a ten year -- it's going to be a ten year
6 KOZ, the first two years, we would say that might be
7 permitting and construction, 18, 24 months for permitting,
8 construction. Project is done and you start to have your
9 work force come in, you get ramp-up of your work force,
10 and that's where the EIT comes in, and so you have a
11 gradual -- certainly, hopefully a gradual increase of the
12 earned income tax as -- as the work force increases and
13 hopefully their salaries increase.
14 And then when you get to the end of
15 the KOZ in year 10, that's where the earned income tax and
16 the real -- that guaranteed real estate tax earned, that's
17 that 4 million -- 4.8 million dollars that Hazleton is
18 standing to collect come January of 2011.
19 Now, certainly we don't anticipate
20 that we would be able to replicate -- we're not trying to
21 replicate what Hazleton did. I mean, we're only dealing
22 with 350 acres, but on a comparative basis, you know, this
23 is what you would hope to see happen with a KOZ zone.
24 Specifically we're requesting KOZ
25 designation for the New Ventures Business Park,
53
1 approximately 210 acres in the park we would look to put
2 into the zone. In addition, we'd be -- just for
3 informational purposes, in addition we would be putting
4 approximately 63 acres, which is located in the -- what we
5 call our old industrial park, which is off of Route 940 in
6 Mount Pocono behind the Walmart retail facility. There's
7 approximately 63 acres in there that we'd like to put in
8 the zone, and then the Corporate Center East, which is
9 almost across the street from the Mount Pocono Airport,
10 the land is still available in there. We would look to
11 try and put that into the KOZ also. So total, we have
12 about 340 acres that we'd be trying to put into this new
13 Keystone Opportunity Zone.
14 There's also one extension, just,
15 again, for informational purposes, the Arcadia North
16 Business Park, which is where Johnson and Johnson is,
17 there's about 114 acres. That is our only KOZ up here on
18 the top of the mountain here, and we'd be looking to renew
19 that KOZ, because that's a separate -- separate issue.
20 Just as a point of information, we went before the Pocono
21 Mountain School District and it was unanimously approved
22 by them.
23 We anticipate, come Wednesday, that
24 the county commissioners, from what we were told, will be
25 approving -- approving it also. Coolbaugh Township
54
1 approved the KOZ that I just mentioned, that are in their
2 jurisdiction, and certainly we would -- we would hope that
3 the -- that the board here would follow suit. Again, we
4 need a resolution. Our application deadline is May 1 and
5 so we need to move a little bit quickly on this to get it
6 all done and down to Harrisburg by that deadline.
7 And I certainly would be happy to
8 entertain any questions at this point.
9 MS. PICKARD: I have a question on the
10 resolution that Coolbaugh had. They had a TBD under the
11 earned income tax?
12 MR. DENNIS NOONAN: That's a part of
13 the resolution that I'm not sure that I can deal with. I
14 don't know what taxes are necessarily collected, you know,
15 by boroughs or townships or whatever, and that's not all
16 that might be applicable, and I don't know how -- how you
17 would -- you want to maybe -- so far the school district,
18 the commissioners and Coolbaugh, they've all kind of
19 tweeked these resolutions. This is like a sample that
20 came out of Harrisburg, kind of a sample resolution that
21 everybody could try and follow as a template; but
22 everybody's kind of put their own spin on it and I tried
23 to, you know, provide you with, you know, something you
24 could really go -- without doing too many changes, I hope,
25 but certainly it's whatever works for the township.
55
1 MS. PICKARD: If we have that with
2 TBD, we're okay to -- I mean, that wouldn't warrant them
3 bringing that up later?
4 MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. It sounds like
5 what you're saying is that to be determined is in there
6 because it kind of leaves it open with respect to whatever
7 taxes --
8 MR. DENNIS NOONAN: Whatever taxes
9 would be exempt, whatever is, you know --
10 MR. ARMSTRONG: And it looks like
11 Coolbaugh has the business gross receipts tax, earned
12 income received tax from residents and net profits.
13 MR. DENNIS NOONAN: I'm not sure if
14 that particular version has the PILOT's language in there.
15 I can provide that for you. We've -- we've drafted some
16 language that addressed, you know, the payments in lieu of
17 taxes; so it's already -- it's in your -- it's in the
18 resolution, that gets passed. There's no reason to go and
19 revisit it, you know, as a -- property owners, individual
20 property owners will then have to apply to Harrisburg to
21 get the benefit for themselves. We're just applying to
22 get the zone established. Individual property owners or
23 tenants then have to apply annually to get the K OZ
24 benefits. That's the point of that information.
25 But as long as that PILOT's language,
56
1 I think, is in the resolution, it is not something that
2 you're going to have to go back and revisit. It's
3 established, it's done, you're going to collect whatever
4 you're gonna collect.
5 MR. ARMSTRONG: And you have a version
6 of a resolution with the PILOT?
7 MR. DENNIS NOONAN: Yeah, I do. I can
8 provide that to you.
9 MS. PICKARD: This is the one you had
10 provided for us and we had Margie do up --
11 MR. DENNIS NOONAN: I don't know how
12 long ago that was, but, you know, like I said, we did --
13 this is kind of a new thing, the PILOTs is a new part of
14 the program. So it's -- everybody's, you know, trying to
15 figure out what's the appropriate way to address it. And
16 at this point most people are thinking that if it's just
17 in the resolution, you know, it's kind of -- it's done for
18 you and you don't have to -- in the legislation it says --
19 in the legislation it says the taxing entity and the owner
20 will go into a negotiated agreement -- a negotiated
21 agreement.
22 MR. ARMSTRONG: Um-hum.
23 MR. DENNIS NOONAN: I don't know that
24 everybody would want to go in negotiated agreements every
25 time a property owner, you know, made an application. I
57
1 mean, that could be a process you just don't want to get
2 into. So if you address it up front, you know, it's
3 done --
4 MR. ARMSTRONG: Well, what you can do
5 is, if you want to take action on the resolution you have
6 tonight, you can approve that and in the interim before --
7 it doesn't take effect until January 1 of 2010, right?
8 MR. DENNIS NOONAN: Right.
9 MR. ARMSTRONG: Or I'm -- whenever --
10 MR. DENNIS NOONAN: Right.
11 MR. ARMSTRONG: The --
12 MR. DENNIS NOONAN: Our application is
13 due May 1, so we need to have some --
14 MR. ARMSTRONG: Right.
15 MR. DENNIS NOONAN: -- something --
16 MR. ARMSTORNG: But in the interim you
17 can approve --
18 MS. PICKARD: We could amend the
19 resolution.
20 MR. ARMSTRONG: If you want to amend
21 it to include that PILOT -- PILOT language, you can do
22 that as well.
23 MS. PICKARD: Okay. I'll make a
24 motion we approve Resolution 2009 dash 011.
25 MR. KERRICK: Motion on the floor.
58
1 Do we have a second?
2 MR. MOYER: Second.
3 MR. KERRICK: Questions or comments
4 from the board on the motion?
5 Questions from the public on the
6 motion?
7 Call the vote.
8 Donny?
9 MR. MOYER: I vote in favor.
10 MR. KERRICK: Hugh?
11 MR. LAMBERTON: I vote in favor.
12 MR. KERRICK: Heidi?
13 MS. PICKARD: I vote in favor.
14 MR. KERRICK: I'll vote in favor.
15 Motion carried.
16 Thank you.
17 MR. DENNIS NOONAN: Thank you very
18 much.
19 MR. KERRICK: Next on your agenda,
20 General Code Municity Contract Termination and Service
21 Assurance Plan.
22 MS. PICKARD: This is referencing the
23 software, Municity software that we purchased and entered
24 into an agreement in May of 2006 that we've been working
25 on implementing for the last three years. And --
59
1 MR. THOMAS CAMPSON: Speak up, please?
2 MS. PICKARD: We had some difficulty
3 with the software and what -- the general code and the
4 performance. We got a call last week that they were
5 willing to resolve this and we are going to terminate our
6 agreement with them, and I would like to simultaneously
7 enter into the software support program. So I'm making
8 the motion to terminate the original contract for which we
9 owe $23,000 for. So starting with a clean slate and
10 moving forward.
11 MR. MOYER: Second.
12 MR. KERRICK: Motion on the floor to
13 terminate the contract with Municity, balance remaining is
14 23,000, simultaneously --
15 MS. PICKARD: John, it's not for 23 --
16 we do not owe them that --
17 MR. KERRICK: I know. That's what
18 was --
19 MS. PICKARD: We were entering into
20 the software assurance plan for $3,000.
21 MR. KERRICK: And that's in your
22 motion?
23 MS. PICKARD: Yes.
24 MR. KERRICK: That's in your second,
25 Donny?
60
1 Motion and second.
2 Any questions or comments from the
3 board?
4 Questions or comments from the public
5 on the motion?
6 Call the vote.
7 Donny?
8 MR. MOYER: I vote in favor.
9 MR. KERRICK: Hugh?
10 MR. LAMBERTON: I vote in favor.
11 MR. KERRICK: Heidi?
12 MS. PICKARD: I vote in favor.
13 MR. KERRICK: I'll vote in favor.
14 Motion carried.
15 Next on our agenda, Pinecrest Lake
16 Phase II, Section 5, Lot A, No. 7, time extension waiver,
17 pretty much self-explanatory.
18 MR. ARMSTRONG: Right. The applicant
19 has provided a time extension back from the plan. I think
20 the applicant's still in the process of -- he's still in
21 the process of clarifying some of the things on his end
22 with respect to ownership and declaration of covenants on
23 the project.
24 MR. MOYER: Right.
25 MR. KERRICK: Entertain a motion?
61
1 MS. PICKARD: So moved.
2 MR. KERRICK: Motion.
3 Do we have a second?
4 MR. LAMBERTON: Second.
5 MR. KERRICK: Motion and second.
6 Questions or comments?
7 Question or comments from the public
8 on the motion?
9 Call the vote.
10 Donny?
11 MR. MOYER: I vote in favor.
12 MR. KERRICK: Hugh?
13 MR. LAMBERTON: I vote in favor.
14 MR. KERRICK: Heidi?
15 MS. PICKARD: I vote in favor.
16 MR. KERRICK: I'll vote in favor.
17 Motion carried.
18 Next item on our agenda, Olewnik
19 application for joining adjacent lots. Anyone here? Hope
20 I didn't butcher the name.
21 Could you explain that?
22 MR. ARMSTRONG: Is anyone here on the
23 proposed lot consolidation plan?
24 A VOICE: We didn't hear the name on
25 it.
62
1 MR. ARMSTRONG: The property owner is
2 Olewnik, O-L-E-W-N-I-C -- or, I'm sorry, N-I-K.
3 What this is, it's a -- if you look
4 through the application, it's a -- it's a lot
5 consolidation plan to consolidate lots identified as tax
6 map parcel Nos. 19/17B/1/137 and 19/17B/1/37, identified
7 on the tax map provided by the applicant.
8 MS. PICKARD: I make a motion we
9 approve the application for joining adjacent lots for the
10 Olewnik property.
11 MR. KERRICK: In Arrowhead Lakes?
12 MS. PICKARD: In Arrowhead Lakes.
13 MR. KERRICK: Motion on the floor to
14 adjoin the two lots.
15 Do we have a second?
16 MR. LAMBERTON: Second.
17 MR. KERRICK: Motion and second.
18 Questions or comments?
19 Questions or --
20 MR. ARMSTRONG: Just be noted that the
21 lot lines to be --
22 MR. KERRICK: Extinguished?
23 MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, extinguished.
24 It looks like he has it --
25 MR. MOYER: Yeah.
63
1 MR. ARMSTRONG: -- but that should
2 just be noted.
3 MR. KERRICK: Questions or comments
4 from the public?
5 Call the vote.
6 Donny?
7 MR. MOYER: I vote in favor.
8 MR. KERRICK: Hugh?
9 MR. LAMBERTON: I vote in favor.
10 MR. KERRICK: Heidi?
11 MS. PICKARD: I vote in favor.
12 MR. KERRICK: I'll vote in favor.
13 Motion carried.
14 Next item on our agenda, Creekview
15 property settlement, date/time extended.
16 MS. PICKARD: This is for the purchase
17 of the 87 acres adjacent to the Austin Blakeslee Natural
18 Area that we've been -- received DCNR approval back in the
19 fall, and this is just extending the date of the contract
20 to be on or before July 31, 2009. And we did get the
21 executed grant agreement back from the state, so we do
22 expect that we should have that money in six to eight
23 weeks.
24 I'll make that motion.
25 MR. KERRICK: We have a motion on the
64
1 floor for the settlement date and time extended.
2 Do we have a second?
3 MR. LAMBERTON: Second.
4 MR. KERRICK: Second.
5 Questions or comments from the board?
6 Pat, do you have any?
7 MR. ARMSTRONG: Nope.
8 MR. KERRICK: Questions or comments
9 from the public on the motion?
10 Call the vote.
11 Donny?
12 MR. MOYER: I vote in favor.
13 MR. KERRICK: Hugh?
14 MR. LAMBERTON: I vote in favor.
15 MR. KERRICK: Heidi?
16 MS. PICKARD: I vote in favor.
17 MR. KERRICK: I'll vote in favor.
18 Motion carried.
19 Next on our agenda, proposed DCNR
20 grant application.
21 Heidi?
22 MS. PICKARD: DCNR grant application
23 deadline is April 22, and the open space committee is
24 recommending that we leverage our local share gaming grant
25 money, the amount of $50,000, to put in a grant
65
1 application for DCNR to get the fishing dock and the
2 handicap trail access done as well. So we intend to do
3 that. So I want to get approval to move forward with the
4 grant application.
5 MR. KERRICK: Is that a motion?
6 MS. PICKARD: That is a motion.
7 MR. MOYER: Second.
8 MR. KERRICK: Motion and second.
9 Questions or comments?
10 Questions or comments from the public
11 on the motion?
12 Call the vote.
13 Donny?
14 MR. MOYER: I vote in favor.
15 MR. KERRICK: Hugh?
16 MR. LAMBERTON: I vote in favor.
17 MR. KERRICK: Heidi?
18 MS. PICKARD: I vote in favor.
19 MR. KERRICK: I'll vote in favor.
20 Motion carried.
21 You have anything else?
22 MR. MOYER: I have nothing.
23 MR. KERRICK: Hugh? Heidi?
24 MS. PICKARD: Donny's gonna have to
25 pick up the pace here --
66
1 MR. KERRICK: Do you have anything?
2 MR. ARMSTRONG: No.
3 MR. KERRICK: Does anyone from the
4 public wish to address the board?
5 MR. EUGENE VAN HORN: About what?
6 MR. KERRICK: Anything you want.
7 MR. ARMSTRONG: Like we said in the
8 beginning of the meeting, just identify yourself, your
9 address and --
10 MR. BILL MULLEN: My name is Bill
11 Mullen. I live at 170 Wild Pines in Pocono Pines.
12 Three years ago -- excuse me -- I took
13 on a personal project to try and restore the Hungry Hill
14 Revolutionary Monument on Sullivan Trail. And the first
15 two years we got to raise money and with a lot of help
16 from the Monroe County Commissioners to restore the
17 stonework.
18 And in the third year, which we are in
19 now, I'm happy to report that we have a landscaping plan
20 approved by Pennsylvania State College and the
21 Pennsylvania Agricultural Committee, and it's being put
22 out to bids. And we're going to plan around May 15. As
23 this project steamrolled and more and more people got
24 involved, now, after it's completed, the commissioners in
25 Monroe County want to have a ribbon cutting ceremony.
67
1 And everything's fully funded, so I'm
2 not here to ask for any money, but when you drive down
3 Sullivan Trail from Route 940, it's -- it really needs
4 help, with all of the dead trees and branches, and it's
5 pretty much of a disgrace that a lot of people might be
6 invited down to the ribbon cutting ceremony and maybe
7 people eventually would like to visit the monument.
8 If there's any way you could send a
9 crew or somehow you can get somebody to help clean it up.
10 I've talked to the PennDOT and the manager, Wayne, is
11 going to try and get the sheriff's department with the --
12 the convicts to come and help clean it up, but they don't
13 really have big trucks and things. They mostly do paper.
14 And they would put branches and things by the side of the
15 road, but we would still need somebody to pick it up.
16 So if there's any way that you can
17 help out, it's the end of a dream, I appreciate it and I
18 would thank you.
19 MR. KERRICK: Do we have your number
20 where we can get in touch with you? Can we talk to you
21 after the meeting?
22 MR. BILL MULLEN: I want to go home
23 and see Dancing with the Stars.
24 I've been three years with this
25 project. I'll wait till the end of the meeting.
68
1 MR. KERRICK: No, no. We'll get in
2 touch with you.
3 MR. ED TUTRONE: John, you want me to
4 go out there with him?
5 MR. KERRICK: Yeah. Just get his name
6 and number. I'll see what we can do. It's a PennDOT
7 road, but we'll see if we can get approval and see if we
8 can get some guys over to take care of it.
9 MR. BILL MULLEN: Thank you very much.
10 MS. PICKARD: Thank you.
11 MR. KERRICK: You have anything?
12 MR. BILL MULLEN: It's a nice sitting
13 area too. Everybody should go and take a look at it.
14 MR. KERRICK: Can you watch Dancing
15 With the Stars there?
16 MR. KERRICK: Yes, sir.
17 You have the floor.
18 MS. BARBARA DeGEORGE: Where do you
19 park when you visit that?
20 MR. KERRICK: I don't know. They have
21 no parking, right, at the present time.
22 MR. THOMAS CAMPSON: I think you park
23 on the side of the road there.
24 MR. KERRICK: That's the unfortunate
25 part.
69
1 MR. THOMAS CAMPSON: Yeah.
2 FEMALE VOICE: Excuse me?
3 MR. KERRICK: I think the church owns
4 the property. I don't know if they would donate
5 anything for a parking area.
6 Yes, sir?
7 MR. EUGENE VAN HORN: He is, right?
8 This is public, right, right now?
9 MR. KERRICK: Yes.
10 MR. EUGENE VAN HORN: My name is Van
11 Horn, Eugene, 245 Cliff Road, Pocono Manor.
12 I would like to know if you grant this
13 commercial thing that they're looking for in that sandpit,
14 what does that entitle them to do exactly? Like why do
15 they want this?
16 MR. ARMSTRONG: Well, it's a rezoning.
17 A number of things come into play, but the commercial
18 district, if your question is, what's permitted in the
19 commercial district -- is that -- is that the question?
20 MR. EUGENE VAN HORN: Yes.
21 MR. ARMSTRONG: I mean, I can go
22 through -- if you give me a chance to get to the section
23 in the zoning ordinance. There's a number of uses that
24 are permitted within each district, within the township;
25 but this particular district, the commercial district, you
70
1 know, you can -- you can look at the zoning ordinance at
2 the township office during office hours. I don't know if
3 you want me to --
4 MS. PICKARD: It's online as well.
5 MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. It's also
6 online.
7 MR. EUGENE VAN HORN: Okay.
8 MR. MOYER: There are no plans from
9 them.
10 MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. There's nothing
11 pending before the township, but just very briefly,
12 permitted uses in the commercial district are: hotels;
13 motels; restaurants; gift and antique shops; retail
14 stores, including food markets, drugstores, bakeries,
15 hardware stores, sporting goods stores; personal service
16 shops, including barber and beauty shops, dry cleaning,
17 self-service laundry; real estate offices; financial
18 institutions; business and professional offices; all
19 business servicing and processing; outdoor display of
20 goods; residential uses, which are secondary to the
21 commercial use; municipal or other governmental uses;
22 cemeteries; and it goes on, off-track wagering facilities;
23 and then those are the permitted uses.
24 There's also special exception uses
25 that are permitted as well as conditional uses. Special
71
1 exceptions: motor vehicle service stations; apartment
2 buildings; truck terminals; public utilities; commercial
3 service mining; park and ride commuter lots.
4 MR. EUGENE VAN HORN: And they have no
5 plans for it whatsoever right now?
6 MR. ARMSTRONG: There's -- there's no
7 land development application that I'm aware of pending
8 before the township. I don't think the supervisors have
9 seen any. And I don't think the owner of the property has
10 applied for any land development or subdivision of the
11 property to date.
12 MR. EUGENE VAN HORN: Why do they want
13 to change it?
14 MR. THOMAS CAMPSON: Yeah. I'm -- I'm
15 with the gentleman there. Tom Campson. Why is -- why are
16 we having this hearing next month about the zoning change
17 if they're not gonna change nothing?
18 MR. ARMSTRONG: Well, it's not -- you
19 can't focus on the property owner. The township, in
20 looking at its zoning ordinance after the petition and
21 looking at the comprehensive plan, looking at the
22 surrounding districts, the fact that I think there's a
23 number of properties that border the parcel that are
24 already commercial or commercial industrial, not only in
25 Tobyhanna Township but in --
72
1 MR. THOMAS CAMPSON: No. There's no
2 commercial industrial on that property. I already checked
3 into it.
4 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: Already
5 checked --
6 MR. THOMAS CAMPSON: Pocono -- Pocono
7 Township turned it down and made a recreational district.
8 MR. ARMSTRONG: Right. My
9 understanding -- I don't have --
10 MR. KERRICK: Pocono Manor has
11 property --
12 MR. ARMSTRONG: No, no. I'm talking
13 about township -- I'm talking about Tobyhanna Township
14 property right now.
15 MR. THOMAS CAMPSON: Okay.
16 MR. ARMSTRONG: I'm not talking
17 about --
18 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: I'm Tobyhanna
19 Township.
20 MR. THOMAS CAMPSON: Yeah.
21 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: No.
22 MR. THOMAS CAMPSON: But it's -- it's
23 zoned right now rural residential and they want to make it
24 into commercial. That's -- that's what this meet -- the
25 hearing was last month, which you postponed, and now we're
73
1 gonna wait until next month --
2 MR. ARMSTRONG: Right.
3 MR. THOMAS CAMPSON: -- to state our
4 case.
5 So I think you're kind of like
6 misleading the gentleman as far as -- there's nothing in
7 front of the township, but there is. There's a zoning
8 change request for Pocono Manor to change it from rural
9 route -- rural residential to commercial.
10 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: Actually there's
11 a petition.
12 MR. ARMSTRONG: There was a --
13 MR. THOMAS CAMPSON: A petition.
14 MR. ARMSTRONG: Let me correct just a
15 few things.
16 MR. THOMAS CAMPSON: Okay.
17 MR. ARMSTRONG: There was a petition
18 back in 2008 to rezone not only that parcel, but a number
19 of parcels.
20 MR. THOMAS CAMPSON: Right.
21 MR. ARMSTRONG: And after considering
22 that petition, there was a public hearing for that
23 petition looking at all the township zoning districts and
24 the comprehensive plan, a number of the other things. The
25 township decided not to rezone all the parcels that were
74
1 proposed in that petition. It's this one parcel now
2 that's part of the rezoning ordinance that the township
3 has put together.
4 MS. BARBARA DeGEORGE: Which one? I
5 just -- I'm curious. Do you often act on petitioners that
6 do not accompany a plan of what someone's going to do with
7 the property?
8 THE REPORTER: Excuse me. Could I
9 have your name, please?
10 MS. BARBARA DeGEORGE: Barbara
11 DeGeorge.
12 MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah.
13 MR. LAMBERTON: This doesn't come up
14 that often in the past seven or eight years.
15 MS. BARBARA DeGEORGE: Normally
16 applications are submitted with plans to do something.
17 MR. ARMSTRONG: For subdivision and
18 land development. This is not -- this is a rezoning
19 ordinance of the township.
20 MR. LAMBERTON: Yeah. That's the
21 difference. You're talking about rezoning. They're not
22 applying to put a supermarket in there at this point in
23 time or anything else.
24 MS. PICKARD: They can't apply for a
25 supermarket in a rural residential.
75
1 MR. LAMBERTON: For rezoning, a rural
2 residential to commercial.
3 MS. BARBARA DeGEORGE: Okay. So were
4 you -- were you to grant this request, then at some future
5 point someone would have to come up with a plan for this?
6 MR. MOYER: Right.
7 MR. KERRICK: And then they would have
8 to go through land development and subdivision --
9 MS. BARBARA DeGEORGE: And that would
10 go through the planning commission?
11 MR. KERRICK: Planning commission, and
12 have to meet all the regulations that --
13 MR. EUGENE VAN HORN: What about what
14 they're already doing running them four-wheelers over
15 there?
16 MR. KERRICK: That's another issue.
17 We'll get to that. They're talking about rezoning. Let's
18 stick with rezoning right now.
19 MR. BUZ WHELAN: Buz Whelan, Emerald
20 Lakes.
21 I think part of the confusion here is,
22 we don't understand what your criteria are for deciding
23 what a rezoning application -- when it should be accepted
24 and when not.
25 What are you people looking for? What
76
1 helps you decide whether to grant a rezoning request or
2 not?
3 MR. ARMSTRONG: There --
4 MR. LAMBERTON: We're looking for not
5 building 300 homes in there and raise your taxes through
6 the roof. That's what we're looking for.
7 MR. ARMSTRONG: There's a number --
8 MR. KERRICK: There's a number of
9 things. Public comment -- excuse me?
10 MS. BARBARA DeGEORGE: I'm sorry.
11 Could you repeat that? I -- I didn't
12 quite get it because there's too much rattling.
13 MR. LAMBERTON: Essentially they could
14 put 300 homes in there --
15 MS. BARBARA DeGEORGE: Yes.
16 MR. LAMBERTON: -- with two and a half
17 children per home perhaps, and your school taxes would go
18 through the roof.
19 MS. BARBARA DeGEORGE: Okay. So you
20 don't want to see that?
21 MR. LAMBERTON: No.
22 MS. BARBARA DeGEORGE: Okay.
23 MR. BUZ WHELAN: But what --
24 MR. ARMSTRONG: There are a number of
25 things that go into the equation. I mean, there's the
77
1 surrounding zoning -- I think if I'm -- I don't have
2 the -- actually I don't have the plan in front of me
3 tonight, but I think the properties that border it to the
4 north may already be commercial, and -- which is what I
5 was talking about before. I wasn't talking about the
6 neighboring townships.
7 You know, if there's a lack of
8 commercial districts within the township, that's another
9 factor that comes into play if they're considering
10 rezoning certain properties within the township. If
11 there's too much rural residential or there's not enough
12 commercial, that's -- you know, a lot of things come into
13 play. They look at the commer -- the comprehensive plan
14 of the township to determine which path the township wants
15 to proceed in the future.
16 MS. BARBARA DeGEORGE: So a balance?
17 MR. ARMSTRONG: Yes.
18 MS. BARBARA DeGEORGE: Okay.
19 MR. ARMSTRONG: I'm not the chairman.
20 MR. KERRICK: Here's something from
21 Monroe County (inaudible) the impact. That's another tool
22 that we have to use.
23 MR. ARMSTRONG: Okay.
24 MR. KERRICK: And basically what this
25 shows is, there's -- Tobyhanna Township -- basically what
78
1 it shows that there's an imbalance. There's too much
2 residential versus commercial. This is a report from
3 Monroe County. The planning commission or just Monroe
4 County?
5 MR. ARMSTRONG: Monroe County.
6 MS. PICKARD: That comes out of the
7 planning commission.
8 MR. KERRICK: Comes out of the
9 planning commission.
10 In the back?
11 MR. GREG PENCE: Yeah. I think --
12 Greg Pence, Pocono Manor.
13 I have a question about the current
14 zoning for the ATV park.
15 Is that RR or is that commercial?
16 MS. PICKARD: I'm sorry?
17 MR. KERRICK: I didn't hear your
18 question.
19 MR. EUGENE VAN HORN: Is it -- is
20 it -- is it -- is it commercial now where they're running
21 the four-wheelers?
22 MS. PICKARD: It's rural residential.
23 MR. EUGENE VAN HORN: It's
24 residential, right?
25 MS. PICKARD: Well, rural --
79
1 MR. EUGENE VAN HORN: Well, that's
2 wrong, isn't it?
3 MR. GREG PENCE: They're running a
4 commercial enterprise in a rural residential area. Do
5 they have the zoning permit to do that?
6 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: No. Nothing.
7 MS. BARBARA DeGEORGE: No variance?
8 No special circumstances?
9 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: Nothing. Nothing
10 on record.
11 MR. ARMSTRONG: Now, are they --
12 you're talking about Tobyhanna Township or the
13 neighboring --
14 MR. GREG PENCE: I'm talking about
15 the --
16 MS. PICKARD: Tobyhanna Township.
17 MR. GREG PENCE: -- the sandpit and
18 the ATV park.
19 MR. THOMAS CAMPSON: That's in
20 Tobyhanna Township.
21 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: Tobyhanna
22 Township is where the sandpit is that they're talking
23 about --
24 MR. THOMAS CAMPSON: Just east of 380.
25 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: -- and the ATV
80
1 Lost Trails is at.
2 MS. BARBARA DeGEORGE: Have any of you
3 ever be down there to see it?
4 MR. KERRICK: Yes.
5 MS. BARBARA DeGEORGE: Yeah, so you
6 know where it is?
7 MR. KERRICK: Yes.
8 MS. BARBARA DeGEORGE: Okay.
9 MR. GREG PENCE: So I believe --
10 MS. BARBARA DeGEORGE: Is it -- is it
11 on residential properties?
12 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: Yes.
13 MR. KERRICK: To the best of my
14 knowledge, yes.
15 MR. GREG PENCE: I believe the hearing
16 on October 13 --
17 MR. ARMSTRONG: Wait, wait, wait.
18 MR. KERRICK: One at a time.
19 MR. ARMSTRONG: Yes. We have a
20 stenographer here, a court reporter, taking down
21 everyone -- what everyone says, so one person is going to
22 talk at a time, and that person will be designated by the
23 chairman as you all raise your hands and identify
24 yourselves.
25 MR. GREG PENCE: On the hearing
81
1 minutes of 10/13/08 it was mentioned that the ATV club is
2 in the -- the rural residential area currently. So I
3 would -- if that's the case, I would suggest they're in
4 violation of your zoning ordinances currently, if they do
5 not have a zoning permit, because that is, according to
6 your ordinance -- your zoning ordinances, that's not a
7 permitted use in a rural residential area.
8 The other question --
9 MR. ARMSTRONG: What 10/13/08, what
10 was that?
11 MS. PICKARD: The petition.
12 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: The hearing.
13 MR. GREG PENCE: The hearing on the
14 petition.
15 MR. ARMSTRONG: Okay. They answered
16 my --
17 MR. GREG PENCE: The public hearing on
18 the rezoning petition.
19 The other question I have is, has the
20 ATV park, to your knowledge, complied with your township
21 noise ordinances?
22 MR. KERRICK: I have --
23 MR. GREG PENCE: Has that been
24 changed?
25 MR. KERRICK: -- no way of answering
82
1 that.
2 MR. ARMSTRONG: The way -- the way, I
3 think --
4 MR. KERRICK: Where are you going with
5 this?
6 MR. GREG PENCE: I'm going -- where
7 I'm going is, why is -- why are they -- basically there's
8 an operation that's going on currently that is commercial
9 in a rural residential area.
10 MR. KERRICK: The only thing I can
11 say --
12 MR. GREG PENCE: Is that the reason
13 why they're trying to change this to commercial?
14 MR. KERRICK: Not to the best of my
15 knowledge.
16 MR. GREG PENCE: That's -- that's what
17 I'm getting at. That's what I'll bring up at the hearing
18 in May.
19 I guess the other thing I -- I just
20 wanted to mention too, not to belabor anything at this
21 point, as you prob -- as you know, the head waters of
22 Swiftwater Creek are in Tobyhanna Township and go through
23 this rural residential area. And the stream, as you
24 probably know, has been reclassified by DEP to their
25 highest classification. So when you consider the zoning
83
1 request, I hope you take that into account.
2 Thank you.
3 MR. KERRICK: Thank you.
4 Next?
5 Yes, ma'am?
6 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: My name's Diane
7 Caldwell. I live on Rural Route Sullivan Trail, Box 200,
8 in Scotrun.
9 I also have the October 13 minutes
10 that were presented to the board, and on Page 7 of 43,
11 Pocono Manor goes down the list of all of the things that
12 they're currently doing in operation over there, which is
13 their clubhouse, their proshop, the ATV Lost Trails, that
14 the gentleman over here just brought up about, and several
15 other things, their golf course, which they mention in
16 here also there could be a possibility of plans for
17 another golf course.
18 I want to -- I want to reiterate a
19 statement that was made by Mr. Lamberton in the March
20 meeting, that he stated he's looking out for the safety,
21 that was the word he used, for the safety of the
22 residents.
23 MR. LAMBERTON: That was not in
24 reference to this.
25 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: Yes, it was.
84
1 MR. LAMBERTON: It was -- no. It was
2 in reference to a question from a gentleman sitting over
3 here in regards to a tower.
4 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: Okay. If it was
5 even in reference to a tower, you still were concerned
6 about safety, correct?
7 MR. LAMBERTON: Yes.
8 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: Okay. Well, I
9 bring up about safety because this proposed plan is 1,000
10 feet from my development. In fact, it's less than 1,000
11 feet from the front door of my home.
12 MR. MOYER: There are no plans.
13 What plans?
14 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: Well, this
15 rezoning. I mean, if we go rezoning commercial and
16 according to your solicitor, you're allowed so many
17 entities to come in, you -- you may want a ratio of
18 residential versus commercial or a balance of the same.
19 We all know if you bring in commercial, it absorbs the tax
20 structure. Any industry commercial is going to bring in
21 that type of business and it will absorb your tax
22 structure. It may not prevent your school taxes from
23 going up because I work for the school district. I know
24 how that millage rate and everything gets formulated. It
25 may help the property and the county taxes; it may not
85
1 help the school property taxes. That's the first thing.
2 The second thing is, back to safety.
3 You have a multitude -- when I say a multitude, of
4 children, where the buses come up and down that road on
5 that south side where they want to develop this road
6 commercial. I'm assuming it's like a spot commercial of
7 what they're trying to do. It's a -- it's -- that's not
8 safe. That is not looking for the safety of our children
9 and our families.
10 I mean, any one of us that has moved
11 from the city to a residential area has looked to protect
12 our children. And, like I said, we have a multitude --
13 and looking at these minutes from October 8 -- October 13
14 of 2008, a Mrs. Brier, Darlene Brier, and a Mr. Frank
15 Carpucelli (phonetic), they live on Sullivan Trail, the
16 north side of it. So they're on the north side of 380
17 where I'm on the south side of 380 where this proposed
18 zoning -- rezoning is going to take place.
19 They brought up, not just about what
20 this gentleman over here in the coroner brought up about
21 the ATVs, those ATVs abut to her property. It's in these
22 minutes. Where are we protecting our families? They're
23 illegally operating at this point with this no -- with
24 this ATV thing. I watch them. They go 50, 60 miles an
25 hour up Sullivan Trail coming out of the trails on a state
86
1 road. And on that curve, with that curve obstruction, you
2 can't see a damn thing coming or going.
3 Again, I say safety. This rezoning is
4 not going to be safe when you're allowing all -- all types
5 of vehicles or commercial industry, or commercial
6 businesses to come in. How is that going to be safe for
7 the residents of that community? And in effect -- in
8 these minutes it says only a couple of homes it affects.
9 It's not a couple of homes. It's 150 and better homes.
10 Somebody needs to scout this area out,
11 as I stated before back in March, and somebody needs to
12 contact PennDOT to see how that road goes and what's
13 entailed here before this rezoning of this little spot
14 takes place, because this little spot encompasses a lot of
15 people. Are we going to put noise barriers up, down the
16 road? And in these minutes too it says who wants to build
17 a house by 380? I'm two houses -- two streets in front of
18 Route 380. I'm two streets in front of the tower lines.
19 Our houses are built there, even down in the 380 pit. How
20 they got permits for that, I have no idea, but there's
21 people down in that pit that are living there that have
22 children.
23 So these couple of homes that these
24 gentlemen over here are talking about, it's not a couple
25 of homes. It's a lot of homes. And if it's about keeping
87
1 the taxes down in Tobyhanna Township to allow something
2 like this to go through, I think that's horrible on
3 everybody's part not to take into consideration people's
4 lives, because that's what we're talking here. And
5 they're already illegally operating two things that we
6 know of right now that were brought up in this meeting --
7 MS. BARBARA DeGEORGE: Yes.
8 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: -- tonight --
9 MR. ARMSTRONG: Well, wait.
10 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: -- that we know
11 of.
12 MR. ARMSTRONG: Let me -- let me just
13 clarify. I don't -- I don't know if things are being
14 operated illegally. There's such a thing as a preexisting
15 nonconforming use which means if the uses on the property
16 were existing prior to the current zoning ordinance and
17 they were permitted at the time, they're a permitted
18 preexisting nonconforming use. Sitting here tonight, I
19 don't know if they are or not. That's just one thing I
20 wanted to --
21 MS. BARBARA DeGEORGE: That thing just
22 opened up.
23 MR. EUGENE VAN HORN: It's a sandpit.
24 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: Okay. But let me
25 ask you something. You say preexisting things, as my
88
1 township supervisors, what preexisting laws are in effect
2 they are to protect me? They may have preexisting laws to
3 protect them, but what's protecting me and my family and
4 everybody else's families that are sitting here in this
5 room tonight? What's protecting them?
6 MALE VOICE: You're not protecting me.
7 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: You're supposed
8 to be protecting us. You're our township supervisors.
9 Whatever they have, that's their thing, but you're our
10 thing.
11 MR. ARMSTRONG: And that's why there's
12 going to be -- there's been a public hearing. There's
13 going to be another public hearing, and I think that's
14 been -- you know, the board is interested in everyone's
15 opinion.
16 MS. PICKARD: I just wanted to make
17 the one comment that, if there's any plan, whether it's a
18 residential subdivision or whether there's a commercial
19 development, that will go through the planning process.
20 It also has to go through a myriad of state agencies.
21 PennDOT is not going to allow any entrance on that without
22 making sure that it is safe. And I can assure you of that
23 because we've been -- all the plans now that we have
24 before us, they go through many lengths. Also if there is
25 an AV petition on that, the DEP is going to make sure
89
1 there's no degradation to the stream or anything, for any
2 rural or commercial development that would be on that
3 property.
4 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: Ms. Pickard, may
5 I just say, in closing, that everything you just said, I
6 agree upon, but can't they put the plans in motion first,
7 then have the board consider the rezoning if it deems it
8 for whatever they're gonna plan?
9 MS. PICKARD: They really can't put
10 forth a plan for a commercial project --
11 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: Everyone else
12 does.
13 MS. PICKARD: -- when they have a
14 rural residential designation.
15 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: But everybody
16 else does.
17 MR. ARMSTRONG: No.
18 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: Everybody else
19 has to submit a plan.
20 MR. ARMSTRONG: Listen --
21 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: Everybody else
22 has to do it.
23 MR. ARMSTRONG: You're -- you're
24 focusing too much on the applicant. This is --
25 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: I'm not focusing
90
1 on the applicant. I'm focusing on me and my house.
2 That's what I'm focusing on.
3 MR. ARMSTRONG: Right. But the
4 proposed rezoning ordinance will be an ordinance of the
5 township rezoning the zoning district in effect. And I
6 just wanted to also make sure everyone's aware, it's
7 not -- you kept saying a small spot. It's actually -- I
8 think it's like 193 acres, is the -- is the full size of
9 the property.
10 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: But some of its
11 wetlands.
12 MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, I don't -- I
13 don't know what -- if it's wetlands.
14 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: It is wetlands.
15 MS. BARBARA DeGEORGE: Some of it.
16 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: Some of it, yeah.
17 MR. KERRICK: Yes, sir?
18 MR. RUSSELL CRAMER: John, Russell
19 Cramer, 12 Park Lane, Pocono Manor.
20 I don't want to go about the issue if
21 this isn't the right time, but as I repeated in my first
22 statement, the cottagers and the people from Pocono Manor
23 that are here tonight are here because there's a -- an
24 existing condition that is accelerating the degradation of
25 our ecology, our environment and our quality of life. And
91
1 for your edification, I did take a series of photographs
2 of some of the areas that have been affected by the ATV
3 and dirt bike use on the mountain in Tobyhanna Township,
4 as well as Paradise -- or Pocono Township.
5 The cottagers that live at Pocono
6 Manor, as a group, recently signed a petition that was
7 submitted to the Pocono Township Supervisors and they
8 enacted on it and they have, I think at this point, have a
9 cease and desist order for the ATVs on the Pocono Manor
10 property. Now, what we didn't realize was the Pocono
11 Manor property encompasses three different townships; so
12 our concern is that we stop them here and then we get them
13 here; and if you go on their website, the Lost Trails
14 website, and you read the copy, the 1500 acres of sort of
15 doing whatever you want to do, and if -- if you guys are
16 hunters or you're naturalists and you look at these
17 pictures, you'd be appalled at the fact that ruts and
18 things are being irreparably damaged, that there'll be
19 quite a bit of a silting problem, environmental damage, as
20 well as the noise pollution that we're subject to over at
21 the Manor.
22 And I would respectfully submit these
23 photographs for your use.
24 MR. KERRICK: Can we accept those,
25 right, or should they go to the zoning officer?
92
1 MR. ARMSTRONG: What are you
2 submitting? I'm --
3 MR. RUSSELL CRAMER: Photographs of --
4 MR. ARMSTRONG: We're not in a
5 position to really accept any -- any evidence or any
6 documents at this point.
7 What are they showing?
8 MR. RUSSELL CRAMER: Photographs of
9 the ecological damage being done to the area in question
10 by the ATVs and dirt bikes.
11 MR. ARMSTRONG: The zoning officer for
12 the township would -- I'm trying to think who would be the
13 best person if you want to provide copies of --
14 MR. RUSSELL CRAMER: I was hoping
15 maybe if you would look at them, that you would have an
16 understanding of why we're concerned --
17 MR. ARMSTRONG: You can -- you can
18 have -- if the board wants to look at them. There's no
19 problem with the --
20 MR. KERRICK: No problem looking at
21 them? We'll take a look at them.
22 MS. PICKARD: We'll see them.
23 MR. ARMSTRONG: Now, these were taken
24 by --
25 MR. RUSSELL CRAMER: Me.
93
1 MR. KERRICK: You want to see them?
2 MR. RUSSELL CRAMER: It would also
3 appear that the trails are running under -- under the
4 power line. I would think that would be illegal use.
5 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: Definitely.
6 MR. LAMBERTON: Have you taken this
7 issue up with the owner?
8 MR. RUSSELL CRAMER: We've talked to
9 him, yes.
10 MR. LAMBERTON: And?
11 MR. RUSSELL CRAMER: They're still
12 operating.
13 MR. LAMBERTON: Pardon?
14 MR. RUSSELL CRAMER: I said -- we went
15 to the township to get help.
16 MR. LAMBERTON: How about direct
17 communication with the owner?
18 MR. RUSSELL CRAMER: Well, who -- what
19 we don't know is who owns it. That's one of the questions
20 we'd like to know.
21 MR. EUGENE VAN HORN: We don't know --
22 we don't know who owns the four-wheeling place, like the
23 company itself, Lost Trails. You know, one guy says he
24 owns it, we think Mr. Cahill here owns part of it, but
25 nobody's stepping up to that plate, you know? We're tired
94
1 of the thing, you know? It's real simple. We're making
2 it real simple. We want it gone.
3 MR. JAMES CAHILL: I can represent
4 that I personally do not have any ownership interest in
5 Lost Trails.
6 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: Who does?
7 MS. BARBARA DeGEORGE: Does your
8 client?
9 MR. JAMES CAHILL: Does my client?
10 Who's my client?
11 MR. LAMBERTON: Thank you.
12 MR. KERRICK: Any other comments?
13 MS. MARIA BONAWITZ (phonetic): Just
14 as a point of clarification. I'm Maria Bonawitz, I live
15 in Pocono Manor.
16 I believe Mr. Kerrick made a comment
17 earlier before this discussion started about the fact that
18 there is too much residential zoning and not enough
19 commercial zoning, and I'd like some clarification on that
20 comment because I -- I just don't understand.
21 MR. KERRICK: The way I understand it,
22 the Monroe County Planning Commission takes into account
23 the balance of commercial versus residential. And it's
24 their finding that they feel -- I don't have the
25 information in front of me.
95
1 MS. MARIE BONAWITZ: So it's the
2 finding of the Monroe County --
3 MR. KERRICK: Right.
4 MS. MARIA BONAWITZ: -- and where can
5 that be found?
6 MR. ARMSTRONG: It may not be a
7 finding; it may just be statistics.
8 MR. KERRICK: It's a comment. We can
9 get you some information.
10 MS. MARIA BONAWITZ: Okay. Thank you.
11 MR. LAMBERTON: One of the largest
12 commercial properties in the township was taken over by
13 the school board where Pocono West is. It's 300 acres.
14 MR. KERRICK: 400 acres.
15 MR. LAMBERTON: 400 acres of
16 commercial --
17 MR. KERRICK: 400 acres of commercial
18 industrial in Tobyhanna Township.
19 MR. LAMBERTON: And now it ain't
20 commercial because the school board took it over; so we
21 lost 400 acres of a commercial property.
22 MS. MARIA BONAWITZ: Okay. Thank you.
23 MR. KERRICK: Any other comments?
24 MR. ARMSTRONG: Sir, you can get your
25 pictures -- you can take your photos.
96
1 MR. KERRICK: Mr. Schurr?
2 MR. FRED SCHURR: Fred Schurr,
3 Camelot.
4 Now, I was -- I'm wondering why we've
5 got such a high increase in our sewer. It's over $120.
6 MS. PICKARD: It is $120 for the year.
7 It has not been increased in about 11 years.
8 MR. FRED SCHURR: Well, why do we have
9 to -- we were suppose -- when this damn thing came in, we
10 would have said that the prices would stay more or less
11 stable because of all the tie-ins and all the other things
12 that came with it.
13 Now, I'd like to know why we're
14 getting an increase now, and don't give me the bull about
15 the cost going up. I'd like to find out how much money we
16 already got from the sewers and I want to know how much
17 money is laid out for the sewers. So that's what I
18 request. Now, I hope --
19 MR. KERRICK: So stop in tomorrow,
20 fill out a request for information, you can have whatever
21 you want. Anything here is open. You have to fill out
22 the form. If it gets approved, you can get it.
23 MS. PICKARD: I just want to state
24 that our Act 537 Plan from October of '95 when the plant
25 was being built said that the rates were to go up in five
97
1 years to $780, and then five years later go up to $800.
2 That's, in effect, what we did now, but you got a free
3 ride for six years with no increases.
4 MR. FRED SCHURR: There was no free
5 ride, believe me.
6 MR. KERRICK: I mean, there was no
7 increase, Mr. Schurr. There was no increase.
8 MS. PICKARD: There was no increase.
9 MR. KERRICK: We worked hard as long
10 as we could to not increase those.
11 MR. FRED SCHURR: Well, why do we have
12 an increase? That's what I'm trying to get at.
13 MR. KERRICK: Chemicals, electricity,
14 everything is going up. Everything.
15 MS. PICKARD: Also --
16 MR. KERRICK: Disposal of sludge --
17 MS. PICKARD: -- in the beginning we
18 had a lot of money coming in from tap-in fees and
19 assessment fees from the first five years when people were
20 on payment plans. We don't have that money coming in now.
21 MR. FRED SCHURR: What about all --
22 MS. PICKARD: We also have the same
23 debt that we had before. We pay, you know, probably 700
24 of the $800 is going to the debt on the plant.
25 MR. FRED SCHURR: What about the large
98
1 amount of building that's been going on here, and all the
2 commercials that are coming in?
3 MS. PICKARD: Well, right now we don't
4 have any tap-in fees last year nor this year, and there's
5 not a lot of building going on and that's putting more
6 pressure on the -- on the user fees, but the user fees had
7 to go up --
8 MR. FRED SCHURR: Well, tomorrow --
9 MS. PICKARD: -- to pay bills.
10 MR. FRED SCHURR: I'm going to make a
11 day tomorrow, I'm going to elect to come in and find out
12 the cost of the sewer --
13 MS. PICKARD: Um-hum.
14 MR. FRED SCHURR: -- and how expenses
15 are going with it.
16 MS. PICKARD: All right. Yeah, it's
17 in the budget.
18 MR. KERRICK: Anyone else wish to
19 comment?
20 Yes, ma'am?
21 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: Diane Caldwell
22 again.
23 This doesn't necessarily have to do
24 with the rezoning issue, but it does have to do with some
25 of the main concern in the room tonight with the ATV Lost
99
1 Trails that's been operating. And also the sandpit with
2 the trucks coming in and out of that. And I'm going to
3 ask you, as the township supervisors who work for the
4 citizens of Tobyhanna Township -- I guess this is the
5 question I'm going to ask.
6 We come to these meetings to get the
7 information for people like yourselves to be honest with
8 us, which I feel you are, but when I see entities working
9 and operating without the proper procedural guidelines to
10 be followed and it affects the residents of Tobyhanna
11 Township, how do we trust this rezoning issue if they
12 can't be truthful in what they're doing now?
13 MR. ARMSTRONG: Just let me respond.
14 There were --
15 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: Well, I'm not --
16 can you respond after I just finish?
17 MR. ARMSTRONG: Oh, I thought you were
18 finished. I apologize.
19 MS. BARBARA DeGEORGE: There was a
20 pause.
21 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: Just a pause, I
22 have to get my thoughts together. I'm Barack Obama, I
23 can't speak without knowing what I'm speaking about.
24 I'm going to request for the board or
25 whoever is supposed to be in charge of looking at what's
100
1 going on now that it's been brought to light about the
2 quad trails, about the sandpit, I guess to see what you
3 can do, because the noise is horrendous. We're not just
4 dealing with the quads exiting out onto Sullivan Trail.
5 We're dealing with the revving at eight o'clock in the
6 morning on a Saturday and Sunday. I work five days a
7 week. I run a business and I run a full-time job at the
8 school district. I need my sleep on the weekends.
9 So I'd ask if the board could please
10 look at, if they're following even the noise ordinances to
11 the township, the time ordinances to the township and the
12 rifle range. That's another issue. You know, my dog gets
13 loose, goes into -- you know, sometimes gets off his
14 chain, he brings back golf balls from Pocono Manor.
15 That's how close I live to this rezoning thing.
16 MR. ARMSTRONG: Did you --
17 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: I'm just asking
18 the board to reevaluate this whole situation and to -- to
19 protect and give us the safety as the residents that we've
20 been for the past 21 years that I've lived here.
21 The sandpit's always been there and
22 they've always been operational. For how long it's been
23 legal or illegal is beyond me. Same thing with the AT --
24 Lost Trails. This will be its third year that they've
25 been operational and the noise is just getting terrible.
101
1 You can't sleep, you can't even enjoy sitting out on your
2 back deck with -- with the noise and what you're seeing
3 going up and down Sullivan Trail.
4 I'd ask the board to look at that, and
5 I'd also ask the board that if it's going to continue,
6 they might want to take into consideration noise barriers.
7 They do them on the highways, and between 380 in back of
8 me and Pocono Manor in front of me, I'm disgusted that
9 this has been allowed to happen. And I would appreciate
10 if the board can do something about it.
11 MR. KERRICK: Thank you for your
12 comment.
13 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: Thank you.
14 MR. ARMSTRONG: Just -- I'm not going
15 to address all. I can't keep track.
16 MR. THOMAS CAMPSON: I'd just like to
17 know if Mr. Cahill would like to say a few words on Pocono
18 Manor.
19 MR. KERRICK: Yeah. Wait till we
20 finish here --
21 MR. THOMAS CAMPSON: Oh.
22 MR. KERRICK: -- then you can ask that
23 question.
24 MR. ARMSTRONG: With the noise
25 ordinance, I've never been -- I'm actually not -- there
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1 might be one on the books in Tobyhanna Township, but
2 typically the way a noise ordinance is enforced, because
3 they're very difficult to enforce, let me tell you,
4 because you have to take measurements and it's not a fun
5 process, but they're usually attempted to be enforced by
6 townships when there is a complaint from the residents
7 within the township. And it sounds like it may -- I
8 haven't been aware of a complaint before tonight with
9 respect to noise, I don't think, but it's something that
10 the zoning officer can look into.
11 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: I'd appreciate if
12 he would.
13 MR. ARMSTRONG: I'm not the zoning
14 officer, but --
15 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: But if it could
16 be written in the minutes that it could be addressed, I'd
17 appreciate it.
18 MS. PICKARD: The zoning officer's on
19 vacation, but we'll have her look.
20 MR. ARMSTRONG: And -- I mean,
21 everyone's saying that there's certain uses being operated
22 illegally. I don't know if the board, sitting here
23 tonight, can determine whether they are or they're not
24 because, like you said, the sandpit, if it's been there
25 for how many years, like I said, there's such a thing as a
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1 preexisting nonconforming use, meaning that if it was
2 there before the current township ordinances making those
3 regulations, you know, unfortunately -- well,
4 unfortunately, fortunately, whatever end of the spectrum
5 you're on, they're entitled to that preexisting
6 nonconforming use, if that's the case. I don't know if it
7 is or isn't.
8 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: Well, I think I'd
9 like to find that out.
10 MR. EUGENE VAN HORN: It was dump
11 trucks, not four-wheelers, you know? They were selling
12 this stuff.
13 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: You got
14 four-wheelers on the Lost Trails and you got dump trucks
15 in and out.
16 MR. ARMSTRONG: Okay. Someone else --
17 if anyone else wants to make public comment, I think that
18 gentleman behind you started.
19 MR. THOMAS CAMPSON: I see Mr. Cahill
20 and his attorney. I'd just like to hear what Pocono
21 Manor's position is on some of these --
22 MR. MARC WOLFE: We'll wait for the
23 public hearing.
24 MR. RONALD MALVIN: I don't know --
25 MR. KERRICK: Can you state your name
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1 for the record, please?
2 MR. RONALD MALVIN: Ronald Malvin. I
3 live in Pocono Manor on Summit Avenue. A week ago this
4 past Friday night -- well, Saturday morning, 12:30 a.m., I
5 was awakened from a sleep by these vehicles going through
6 Pocono Manor property.
7 In addition to which they have
8 two-wheelers, as well as four-wheelers going through there
9 that start, I am told, in that pit. And certainly that
10 was not the intent, I believe, of the zoning in Pocono
11 Manor. Now, that's not your jurisdiction. It's my
12 understanding from this meeting that's not your
13 jurisdiction, is that correct?
14 MR. KERRICK: That's correct.
15 MR. RONALD MALVIN: But just for your
16 information, the reason I'm presenting those facts --
17 MR. EUGENE VAN HORN: At midnight?
18 MR. RONALD MALVIN: Midnight, 12:30
19 a.m.
20 MS. PICKARD: I don't think that the
21 business is operating at midnight.
22 MR. EUGENE VAN HORN: Oh, yes, it is.
23 MS. PICKARD: Well, I'm just telling
24 you the web site --
25 MR. EUGENE VAN HORN: Oh, no. They
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1 run that at night with lights --
2 MS. PICKARD: But, I don't know
3 about --
4 MR. EUGENE VAN HORN: Oh, it's a joy.
5 MS. PICKARD: -- the part of the
6 business or there's just kids on ATVs running up and down
7 the street.
8 MS. BARBARA DeGEORGE: You got
9 confirmation back here.
10 MR. ALVIN MITCHELL: Listen, my name
11 is Alvin Mitchell and I'm on 412 Sullivan Trail, and I'm
12 on the south side of 380.
13 Now, these ATVs are making more noise.
14 The first couple of warm days we were outside. This thing
15 is getting unbearable. Now, we haven't even gotten to the
16 summer yet.
17 Now, you just got to imagine what's
18 going to happen during the summer. We won't be able to
19 use our property at all. I mean, we've had our property
20 here for 21 years. We have peace and quiet. Now, all of
21 the sudden it's getting unbearable.
22 Now, I mean, look, something has to be
23 done about this. If you can look around this room here,
24 all of these people are here for the same reason
25 basically. I mean, here, we bought our property here for
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1 some peace and quiet. We did not buy our property to have
2 the bikers go down and cause of -- all the noise and
3 pollution and destroy the environment.
4 The animals are scared to death.
5 Across the road from my house I see deer huddling because
6 they're afraid from all the noise. The small animals,
7 rabbits and you name it, all the small animals are running
8 like crazy because they're afraid. They hear all of this
9 noise. What are they gonna do? They have no green land
10 anymore.
11 So we need something done about this.
12 I mean, you people are the supervisors, so it's in your
13 hands. This is why we vote, to have people in office
14 that's going to protect us and our properties.
15 Thank you.
16 MR. KERRICK: Thank you for your
17 comment.
18 Anyone else?
19 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: Can I just get
20 clarification that you're saying that the sandpit isn't in
21 the jurisdiction of Tobyhanna Township?
22 MR. KERRICK: That's not what we said.
23 MS. PICKARD: We didn't say that.
24 MR. KERRICK: That was the Lost
25 Trails.
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1 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: But Lost Trails
2 is Tobyhanna Township.
3 MR. KERRICK: But their office is in
4 Pocono Township.
5 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: But their
6 entranceway is on Sullivan Trail which is Tobyhanna
7 Township.
8 MR. KERRICK: I understand that.
9 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: And that's where
10 they're entering and exiting off of, which is Tobyhanna
11 Township.
12 MR. KERRICK: I understand that.
13 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: Okay.
14 MR. KERRICK: Thank you.
15 MR. ARMSTRONG: Their use
16 isn't (inaudible)?
17 MS. PICKARD: It's banned.
18 MR. KERRICK: It's a long story.
19 Anyone else?
20 MS. PICKARD: Motion to adjourn?
21 MR. KERRICK: No. You've got to give
22 them a chance.
23 Anything?
24 MS. PICKARD: Motion to adjourn?
25 MR. KERRICK: Thank you for coming.
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1 We're adjourned.
2 (Meeting concluded at 8:48 p.m.)
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7 I hereby certify that the proceedings
8 and evidence are contained fully and accurately, to the
9 best of my ability, in the notes taken by me at the
10 meeting in the above matter; and that the foregoing is a
11 true and correct transcript of the same.
12
13 ________________________________
14 Jessica L. Holt, C.R.
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