Before
THE TOBYHANNA TOWNSHIP PLANNING COMMISSION
---
In Re: Regular Business Meeting
---
Tobyhanna Township Government Center Building
State Avenue
Pocono Pines, Pennsylvania 18350
Thursday, May 6, 2010, beginning at 7 p.m.
---
PRESENT: MARK SINCAVAGE, Chairperson
JOSEPH MILLER, Vice-Chairperson
ROBERT BAXTER, Board Member
ANNE LAMBERTON, Board Member
PATRICIA M. RINEHIMER, Board Member
ROBERT McHALE, P.E.,
Township Engineer
PATRICK ARMSTRONG, ESQUIRE, Solicitor
---
Panko Reporting
537 Sarah Street, 2nd Floor
Stroudsburg, Pennsylvania 18360
(570) 421-3620
2
1 MR. SINCAVAGE: I'll call the
2 regularly scheduled meeting of Tobyhanna Township
3 Planning Commission to order for May 6, 2010.
4 First order of business is approval of the April 8,
5 2010 minutes we received electronically. Do I have
6 a motion to approve?
7 MRS. LAMBERTON: I'll make a
8 motion to approve.
9 MR. SINCAVAGE: I have a motion.
10 Do I have a second?
11 MS. RINEHIMER: Second.
12 MR. SINCAVAGE: All those in
13 favor please say aye.
14 MR. MILLER: Aye.
15 MRS. LAMBERTON: Aye.
16 MS. RINEHIMER: Aye.
17 MR. SINCAVAGE: Aye.
18 Wee Wons, Locust Ridge are on
19 our agenda. They are being tabled. I'll entertain
20 a motion to table Wee Wons Day Care preliminary
21 final land development.
22 MR. MILLER: So moved.
23 MR. SINCAVAGE: Do I have a
24 second?
25 MRS. LAMBERTON: Second.
3
1 MR. SINCAVAGE: Motion and
2 second. All those in favor, please say aye.
3 MR. MILLER: Aye.
4 MRS. LAMBERTON: Aye.
5 MS. RINEHIMER: Aye.
6 MR. SINCAVAGE: Aye.
7 Locust Ridge Quarry, 940 Shop,
8 preliminary land development plan. Do I have a
9 motion to table?
10 MS. RINEHIMER: I'll make the
11 motion.
12 MR. SINCAVAGE: Motion. Do I
13 have a second to the motion?
14 MRS. LAMBERTON: Second.
15 MR. SINCAVAGE: All those in
16 favor please say aye.
17 MR. MILLER: Aye.
18 MRS. LAMBERTON: Aye.
19 MS. RINEHIMER: Aye.
20 MR. SINCAVAGE: Aye.
21 Hi, Rob.
22 That brings us to the official
23 map.
24 MR. CARSON HELFRICH: I thought
25 we would look at the map first, but since George
4
1 isn't here, why don't we just do a quick review of
2 these draft ordinances. I just wanted to bring
3 these along to get you started on them tonight.
4 There is actually three drafts here. The longer
5 one is actually the addition to the township's code
6 of ordinances of Chapter 98 which will become the
7 official map ordinance. And there is an amendment
8 to Chapter 155 for the zoning and also to Chapter
9 135 for the subdivision and land development
10 ordinance.
11 The two -- well, for the zoning
12 and the subdivision ordinance, you know, the intent
13 of those is just to provide reference back to the
14 official map when somebody is submitting an
15 application and what the affect of the official map
16 would be on that application. So those -- that's
17 the intent of those two amendments.
18 The official map ordinance is
19 actually a new ordinance and you want to just try
20 to -- Mark, do you want to let me give you the
21 highlights here and do a closer review at the next
22 meeting?
23 MR. SINCAVAGE: Yes.
24 MR. CARSON HELFRICH: A lot of
25 this is taken out of the Municipalities Planning
5
1 Code, it's Article IV, and, you know, what our
2 experience has been throughout the county, there
3 hasn't been a lot of use of the official map in the
4 Commonwealth, and, Patrick, if you find any case, I
5 don't know if you looked for a bunch of case law --
6 MR. ARMSTRONG: There is not
7 much case law in Pennsylvania.
8 MR. CARSON HELFRICH: There's
9 not much case law out there. So we are kind of
10 making new ground here, I guess. So let me just
11 hit some of the highlights here.
12 Article I, I guess the key thing
13 in Article I -- well, first of all, the authority
14 is provided in Article IV of the Pennsylvania
15 Municipalities Planning Code. So that's, you know,
16 what we need to follow. One of the important
17 things here on the top of Page 3 is 98.4, the map
18 along with the ordinance must be recorded in the
19 Monroe County Recorder of Deeds and I think that's
20 to facilitate somebody that's doing the title
21 search probably on a property that may be listed on
22 that official map.
23 98.5, the provisions of the
24 official map I referred to the Regional Comp Plan
25 that was adopted in 2005 and also Monroe County
6
1 2020 Comprehensive Plan. There is a typo here.
2 Regional should be capitalized. The seven items
3 there are taken out of the Planning Code. Those
4 are the types of things that you can show on the
5 official map. Primarily, in the other
6 municipalities that have adopted an official map in
7 the county it's Chestnuthill, Borough of Mount
8 Pocono and Tunkhannock Township -- here comes
9 George -- Tunkhannock township have adopted
10 official maps. And there is a few other
11 municipalities that are currently working on the
12 official map.
13 Let's see. Subsection B, at the
14 bottom of Page 3 is basically saying that in order
15 to show something on the official map it doesn't
16 have to be, you know, detailed by a survey.
17 We didn't wait for you, George.
18 We started without you.
19 It doesn't have to be detailed
20 by a survey. What happens is if you use the
21 official map and begin to acquire something, now at
22 that point then you have to have a detailed
23 description. So just a generalized nature of the
24 official map is fine according to the planning
25 code.
7
1 MR. SINCAVAGE: Who has to do
2 the survey at that point, the township?
3 MR. CARSON HELFRICH: Yes. I
4 would say if the township is going to acquire it, I
5 would suspect that the landowner -- I mean, it
6 doesn't say who has to do it, I think that would be
7 something that would be negotiated. But,
8 certainly, let's say if the township was going to
9 acquire portions of a property of some properties
10 for intersection improvements, I would think it
11 would be the township's responsibility to do that
12 survey. If they are going to acquire conservation
13 easements on the whole parcel, now you may not even
14 need a survey. You'd just be putting the easement,
15 what's ever described in the --
16 MR. SINCAVAGE: The deed.
17 MR. CARSON HELFRICH: The prior
18 deed, right. I think that the next really kind of
19 the meat of the ordinance is Section 98-8. And
20 what the official map really does is once that
21 property is identified on the map, it puts the
22 landowner on notice that the township has an
23 interest in either acquiring that property in fee
24 for public purpose or perhaps acquiring a
25 conservation easement for open space. So that's
8
1 really what the map does.
2 As it says in 98-8 -- basically
3 what it says is that a permit for any kind of
4 building or development will not be issued for a
5 project on a particular parcel that's shown on the
6 map except in accord with this ordinance. And the
7 applicant has a couple of options. They can apply
8 for a special encroachment permit or they could
9 also apply for a permit or provide notice about
10 their construction. So then if we turn to the
11 page to the special encroachment permit -- so that
12 the way that I understand the code, and I'd be
13 looking for Patrick's opinion on this, but if they
14 apply for a special encroachment permit, let's say
15 if they want to build a garage or, you know, do
16 something on that property, if they can make the
17 case that they can't get a reasonable return, I
18 don't have any real good examples about this for
19 you, because I'm just not sure how this would work,
20 but if they apply for that special encroachment
21 permit and it's issued, then that property -- they
22 could do their improvement, but the property would
23 stay on the official map.
24 The other option for the
25 landowner is in 98-10, and what the code provides
9
1 is if that landowner either makes application to
2 the township or provides notice that they are going
3 to develop the property, then if the township
4 doesn't act within the specified time period, the
5 property actually comes off of the official map.
6 All right. And the code actually gives the
7 township a year to either acquire it or begin
8 condemnation proceedings. But what I included here
9 is similar to what a number of the other
10 municipalities are doing. Rather than taking the
11 full year and Subsection 1, under Item A, if it's
12 an accessory use, the township has to make their
13 decision in 60 days. If it's a driveway, building,
14 zoning change of use or sewage, the decision has to
15 be made in 90 days. Subdivision, land development,
16 conditional use, special exception and others, it's
17 180 days. And if it's an unspecified development
18 it would be 180 days. That's similar to what the
19 others have been doing. So the key is, if the
20 parcel is shown on the official map, the landowner
21 has those two alternatives, either to apply for the
22 special encroachment permit, and if the township
23 issues it, then the property could stay on the
24 official map. Otherwise, they could either make
25 application or provide that notice and if the
10
1 township doesn't exercise its option to acquire the
2 property, under the planning code it comes off the
3 map and it's no longer on the map. Now, what could
4 happen is the township could, you know, go through
5 ordinance and amend the map to include it back on
6 the map.
7 And this is what I see as kind
8 of a flaw in this whole thing in the state planning
9 code because after it would be amended to be put
10 back on the map the property owner could again just
11 provide notice and if the township doesn't act it
12 comes off the map. So -- but I think what
13 Chestnuthill has found is that at least it puts
14 people on notice and in some cases, for
15 subdivisions, has provided a basis for a little bit
16 of negotiations on the types and amount of open
17 space.
18 MR. BAXTER: So it could just go
19 on and off and on and off?
20 MR. CARSON HELFRICH: Yeah.
21 You'd have to go through the process of readopting
22 the map and, you know, the hearing and all of that,
23 but -- so as we were saying before, there hasn't
24 been a whole lot of case law on this. In
25 Tunkhannock Township we actually wrote it that if
11
1 somebody provides notice, that unspecified notice
2 to put the township, you know, let the township
3 know they're going to develop it, if they don't
4 develop within a year it automatically goes back on
5 the map, but after I read it more carefully, I
6 don't think we can do that because it clearly says
7 in the code, if the notice is provided, the
8 township doesn't take action, it's no longer
9 included on the map. I think we were trying to go
10 a little bit too far there. I mean, if you want to
11 take a look at that.
12 MR. ARMSTRONG: I'm not
13 necessarily sure that's the case. I have to look
14 at the language. Like you said, there's not much
15 of any case law. But my impression is, like you
16 said, there may be landowners out there, if and
17 when this is adopted, will basically challenge the
18 township and provide that notice and say, listen,
19 we are going to do something within a year.
20 Chances are the township may not do anything and it
21 goes off the map. Maybe they build, maybe they
22 don't. But at that time -- I don't see that
23 scenario. Have you seen that before where it just
24 keeps going back and forth?
25 MR. CARSON HELFRICH: No.
12
1 That's just an extreme example. I haven't seen
2 that. You know, in Chestnuthill they've actually,
3 you know, done a number of intersection
4 improvements that were shown on the official map.
5 And then too, the other thing to remember too is
6 the township has a right of eminent domain for
7 public purpose even if it's not shown on the
8 official map.
9 MR. ARMSTRONG: Right.
10 That's why I think if something
11 like that were to go to the courts, I think once
12 that year is passed, I don't think the flip
13 flopping is something that the legislators
14 intended.
15 MR. CARSON HELFRICH: Okay.
16 MR. ARMSTRONG: But it's a
17 possibility.
18 MR. CARSON HELFRICH: Maybe it
19 would be the citation for the first case. But what
20 I wanted to do is get this to you for tonight so
21 you'd have a chance to look at them in more detail.
22 When you look at the zoning and
23 the subdivision it probably makes sense for you to
24 have your ordinances open and look at those
25 sections, or the sections where these are going.
13
1 But, again, it's really to put people who are
2 working in the zoning or subdivision ordinance on
3 notice that there is the official map and they have
4 to provide that information.
5 MR. SINCAVAGE: Anyone have any
6 questions at this point?
7 Carson, I just have a question
8 in terms of -- a general question in terms of
9 timing here. The township is considering doing a
10 visioning process and I'm wondering if it would be
11 better to hold off on the official map until that
12 visioning process is done as opposed to doing the
13 official map first and then doing a visioning
14 process?
15 MR. CARSON HELFRICH: Well, I
16 think, you know, there is a number of things that
17 have already been identified either in the comp
18 plan or the open space plan. You guys have an open
19 space plan?
20 MR. SINCAVAGE: No.
21 MR. GEORGE BASILA: What are you
22 talking about?
23 MR. CARSON HELFRICH: Open space
24 or comp plan?
25 MR. GEORGE BASILA: Comp.
14
1 MR. SINCAVAGE: We don't have a
2 regional.
3 MR. CARSON HELFRICH: Well, in
4 any case there has already been a number of things
5 identified either in the comp plan or, you know,
6 just by discussion by the township, that are
7 important. So when is this visioning going to
8 occur?
9 MR. SINCAVAGE: I think when the
10 townships find money.
11 MR. CARSON HELFRICH: If you go
12 ahead and adopt it now there is always the
13 amendment process that you can add things to the
14 official map by amending it.
15 You know, I would say if you
16 were going to have your visioning done in the next
17 several or six months that would be one thing, but
18 if it's going to be a year, you might want to
19 consider moving ahead with this. That's your
20 choice.
21 MR. SINCAVAGE: The typical
22 sequence would be doing the visioning and then
23 doing an official map?
24 MR. CARSON HELFRICH: Well,
25 there is a lot of -- I wouldn't say a lot, but some
15
1 of the maps that have been adopted were just simply
2 based on the comprehensive plan without a visioning
3 process. I wasn't involved, but I think when you
4 did your comprehensive plan there had to be some
5 sort of public participation because your
6 comprehensive plan in a sense is a visioning.
7 MR. SINCAVAGE: All right.
8 Let's look at the map with George, if no one else
9 has any questions.
10 MR. BAXTER: So a normal time
11 frame, I guess, if the visioning was not
12 incorporated, you would see, typically, in your
13 experience, would be from this point, if there were
14 no significant road blocks --
15 MR. CARSON HELFRICH: Okay.
16 Well, how long would it take?
17 MR. BAXTER: What is the time
18 frame normally?
19 MR. CARSON HELFRICH: The way
20 that the code reads is the planning commission is
21 really charged with putting the map together and,
22 you know, once you have it in draft form that
23 you're satisfied with, it needs to go to the county
24 planning commission for -- is it 45 or 30?
25 MR. ARMSTRONG: 45. It's a
16
1 little bit more than your typical SALDO.
2 MR. CARSON HELFRICH: Right.
3 Same as a new zoning ordinance. 45 day review
4 period and then the planning commission would hold
5 a public meeting and then the board of supervisors
6 a public hearing and then they could actually adopt
7 it that same evening. What we've done in other
8 municipalities, better effective in some than
9 others, I guess, but we've tried to meet with some
10 of the larger landowners individually before having
11 any public meetings and then we've had informal
12 public information meetings where we just tried to
13 answer questions and have 3 or 4 maps around, you
14 know, members of the planning commission,
15 discussing it with landowners. So we try to get a
16 lot of the questions answered before we get into
17 the formal hearing process. So, you know, it could
18 be -- once you guys have it all ready to go, it
19 could be two or three or four months before it's
20 adopted.
21 MR. SINCAVAGE: That was my
22 question, how do you get participation from the
23 public. From what you just said, I can understand
24 scheduling informal meetings like that, but how was
25 participation in the other townships?
17
1 MR. CARSON HELFRICH: It was
2 pretty good, actually, because people were
3 concerned. What we did too is actually mailed
4 individual letters to the landowners that are
5 involved. So rather than just doing, you know, a
6 notice in the paper -- Chestnuthill, I think they
7 had two informal meetings before it was adopted,
8 but then at the formal hearing for adoption I don't
9 think there was really any questions. Kind of the
10 same thing in the Borough of Mount Pocono. I think
11 we had three in Tunkhannock. Smithfield we had one
12 and, you know, they haven't looked at it since, so
13 I'm not sure exactly what is going to happen there.
14 But they had a lot of properties on the map. I
15 don't think that's going to be the case here. But
16 the more that you can meet with or talk to
17 individual property owners -- some property owners,
18 they will be in support, somebody that's interested
19 in, you know, either selling or donating
20 conservation easements, let's say, those people
21 might be happy to be on the map. The more that you
22 show on the map the more complicated it gets. I
23 think in Smithfield how many did they have shown,
24 George? Do you remember?
25 MR. GEORGE BASILA: It was in
18
1 the 70s. A lot of smaller ones. But still, there
2 were other complicating factors. Property under
3 litigation, things like that.
4 MR. ARMSTRONG: I wasn't around
5 but you probably had some public informational type
6 meetings with your regional comp plan, right? So
7 we could probably gage the response you got from
8 that.
9 MR. McHALE: Funding.
10 MR. ARMSTRONG: Well, adopting
11 the official map isn't the same.
12 MR. McHALE: No, I understand
13 that. I'm saying who is planning and budgeting for
14 purchasing these properties?
15 MR. SINCAVAGE: Who does the
16 budgeting for purchasing?
17 MR. CARSON HELFRICH: Obviously
18 the board of supervisors. Again, it shouldn't
19 necessarily be a wish list. It should be something
20 that's real and, you know, maybe documented in
21 another plan. Again, whoever is going to purchase
22 it -- I mean, it's the township's map, so they
23 would have to actually purchase the property.
24 MR. ARMSTRONG: Right. But
25 there is no -- other than the one year time
19
1 limitation that someone puts you on notice, there
2 is no real time limitation as to when the township
3 would implement this official map or any portion of
4 the official map.
5 MR. SINCAVAGE: And if someone
6 came in with a property that has an area identified
7 on the official map, you can negotiate that as part
8 of land development that they can donate it as
9 opposed to actually buying it, purchasing it.
10 MR. CARSON HELFRICH: Sure.
11 Absolutely.
12 MR. BAXTER: Or decide that it's
13 not that significant and it might not be of
14 interest.
15 MR. SINCAVAGE: Right.
16 MR. BAXTER: Time changes
17 things.
18 MR. CARSON HELFRICH: And,
19 again, if it becomes of interest at a later date,
20 you know, you can either negotiate directly without
21 being on the official map. The whole, you know, in
22 my mind, the whole intent of the official map is
23 that somebody doesn't make improvements to a parcel
24 that's going to add to the value before the
25 township purchases it.
20
1 MR. SINCAVAGE: Right. Any
2 other questions or comments? Okay, George, the
3 map.
4 MR. CARSON HELFRICH: You want
5 to lay it out on the table?
6 (General discussion held, not
7 for the record.)
8 MR. SINCAVAGE: I have a
9 question on the PennDOT proposed easements that you
10 show. Do we have to be more specific on the areas
11 that we would be taking? I mean, that's pretty
12 general.
13 MR. CARSON HELFRICH: Well, when
14 we talked about that and because the township isn't
15 the one that would be actually doing the taking,
16 they didn't -- we didn't feel that it was -- we
17 needed to show the details only to let people know
18 that there may be some potential there.
19 MR. SINCAVAGE: Okay. But what
20 if the township wanted to put sidewalk in there?
21 MR. GEORGE BASILA: There will
22 have to be a lot of work with PennDOT anyway. It's
23 PennDOT right of way.
24 MR. CARSON HELFRICH: It seems
25 to me it will all be done together.
21
1 MR. ARMSTRONG: If the township
2 wanted it on its official map, the potential to
3 even go beyond the PennDOT right of way, put in
4 sidewalks, or you're talking about Village Center
5 that everyone has been talking about, that's
6 something you will want to put on the map because
7 the right of way from PennDOT is only going to go a
8 certain amount.
9 MR. CARSON HELFRICH: Right.
10 The discussion we had in Stroud Township about
11 rights of way is they were planning on showing the
12 lot rights of way for additional width there and
13 then we got to talking about it and, you know, if
14 that's 10 years in the future, if somebody is going
15 to do an improvement within that right of way, you
16 know, next year, would you really even be trying to
17 buy them piecemeal? So what they tried to do, what
18 they're going to be doing is increase the setbacks
19 on those areas to keep any further improvements out
20 of it. So, I mean, that's the other thing I think
21 we need to think about, is if you show additional
22 right-of-way and somebody puts you on notice about
23 an improvement or makes application, are you really
24 going to try to acquire those rights of way one at
25 a time over the next 10 years? You see what I'm
22
1 saying?
2 MR. SINCAVAGE: Again, that's
3 getting back to a point that I brought up during
4 our general discussion. If somebody comes in for a
5 land development plan and we want to put a sidewalk
6 across the front of your property, that's
7 negotiating. We can say, well, we want you to give
8 us that easement. Because it's on the official map
9 we want you to give that -- there is a public use.
10 MR. BAXTER: Without it being on
11 the map we don't have much leverage.
12 MR. SINCAVAGE: That's my
13 understanding.
14 MR. GEORGE BASILA: Carson,
15 wouldn't showing like setbacks be based on zoning?
16 MR. CARSON HELFRICH: Well, that
17 wouldn't really apply to the sidewalk situation. I
18 don't have an answer for you.
19 MR. ARMSTRONG: The setback
20 would just prevent someone from constructing
21 something within the area that you're interested
22 in.
23 MR. SINCAVAGE: Well, the
24 interesting thing that Bob just brought up is, the
25 mapping shows, in Blakeslee, PennDOT already has a
23
1 pretty substantial right of way.
2 MR. CARSON HELFRICH: Well, that
3 was the other thing we mentioned, right.
4 MR. SINCAVAGE: If we wanted to
5 get a sidewalk in there or water lines in there
6 or --
7 MRS. LAMBERTON: Don't you have
8 a right of way?
9 MR. CARSON HELFRICH: But I
10 think you can require, if it's a subdivision or a
11 land development, I think you can require by
12 ordinance that the developer install sidewalks.
13 MR. ARMSTRONG: We can.
14 MR. SINCAVAGE: We don't
15 currently do that. We don't have the authority to
16 ask for it at this time.
17 MR. ARMSTRONG: You can ask for
18 it, it's just not in your SALDO.
19 MR. CARSON HELFRICH: You should
20 put it in your SALDO. Maybe that's one of the
21 things that we can add.
22 MRS. LAMBERTON: There was
23 required curbing out by the high school. It was
24 required. It could have been PennDOT.
25 MR. SINCAVAGE: That's what it
24
1 was.
2 MRS. LAMBERTON: For them to get
3 an occupancy permit.
4 MR. SINCAVAGE: The township
5 doesn't have authority to ask for sidewalks. I
6 have asked for sidewalks for a long time and they
7 all said no.
8 MRS. LAMBERTON: So it's PennDOT
9 requiring it, that they are going to require it
10 anyway.
11 MR. CARSON HELFRICH: Not
12 sidewalks necessarily --
13 MR. ARMSTRONG: That may be an
14 ADA issue, if it's just a ramp, like a wheelchair
15 access sort of thing. The township can adopt a
16 SALDO type amendment ordinance. Typically what
17 happens is sometimes developers coming in, they put
18 in the sidewalks or if it's like in an area like
19 you're saying, there are no sidewalks and the
20 township doesn't see a need for it, you still get
21 that possibly a dedication of extra land, and
22 sometimes you get a fee in lieu of putting
23 improvements on sidewalks.
24 MR. BAXTER: It could be
25 something federal tied in with the school.
25
1 MRS. LAMBERTON: I don't know.
2 Brick City, they are looking to do the same thing
3 at Pocono Summit.
4 MR. CARSON HELFRICH: We can
5 certainly have more discussion about it if you want
6 to show those PennDOT improvements or not.
7 MRS. LAMBERTON: How many people
8 are we affecting here.
9 MR. BAXTER: It's long term.
10 You know, if you're talking about some sort of
11 community village concept, pedestrian environment
12 is something that will not happen without
13 sidewalks.
14 MRS. LAMBERTON: Is there a way
15 to check the main corridors we are interested in,
16 if we are interested in those to see where there
17 could be structures already in the way.
18 MR. CARSON HELFRICH: Well,
19 there probably are and that's the whole -- well, I
20 mean, if they were going to widen them, yeah, you'd
21 have to take them and pay the people.
22 MR. GEORGE BASILA: What the
23 official map does it keeps a potential improvement
24 from occurring.
25 MR. CARSON HELFRICH: If you
26
1 want -- let's say you wanted a wider right of way
2 along one of your township roads, rather than
3 showing that right of way on the official map, just
4 establish a greater setback along that road because
5 then your improvements will be moved back.
6 MR. SINCAVAGE: If you look at
7 Blakeslee Corners here, that whole island structure
8 that they have in front of the Choice Gas Station
9 is in the PennDOT right of way. See?
10 And Wawa, all of the curbing is
11 and a lot of the landscaping is. It's a wide --
12 it's 100 foot on 115 and 80 foot on 940.
13 MR. GEORGE BASILA: I don't know
14 if everybody is aware of that buffer that's
15 along -- there is a buffer I believe that was built
16 right in, as part of this subdivision, Pocono Park
17 subdivision on the south side of 940. And, you
18 know, then we have Camelot Forest, but the gas pipe
19 runs right along that right of way of 940. I don't
20 know where it is as far as -- where it is in terms
21 of where PennDOT's right of way is, but, again,
22 nobody is going to be building on top of that.
23 MR. SINCAVAGE: Right. But
24 that's right in the shoulder. They put that gas
25 line right under the shoulder. It is a wide
27
1 shoulder.
2 MR. GEORGE BASILA: Down here
3 it's well off -- the building is well off --
4 MR. BAXTER: There is a service
5 road that goes in front of --
6 MR. GEORGE BASILA: Called
7 Swallow Road or something.
8 MR. BAXTER: That's not shown
9 there.
10 MR. CARSON HELFRICH: Any other
11 open space considerations? I mean, fortunately you
12 already have a lot of preserved land.
13 MR. GEORGE BASILA: Obviously
14 the first version of the drafts of this map, Pocono
15 Preserve, I really wasn't too sure of the status of
16 how it was preserved.
17 MR. SINCAVAGE: In Pocono Lake
18 Preserve.
19 MR. GEORGE BASILA: I believe.
20 MR. SINCAVAGE: When you look at
21 our map, we have a lot of preserve. This is state
22 gamelands, this is state gamelands.
23 MR. GEORGE BASILA: This is
24 mostly preserve.
25 MR. SINCAVAGE: Pocono Lake
28
1 Preserve. So that, you know, just a guess, about
2 50 percent of the township is already preserved.
3 MR. CARSON HELFRICH: This is a
4 good thing.
5 MR. SINCAVAGE: Until you try to
6 get enough taxes to pay for everything.
7 Any member have any suggestions?
8 We kind of went through this already. The other
9 thing I'd like to see is this intersection. I'm
10 not sure how to address that. Should we show it
11 more in detail? Shouldn't we?
12 MR. GEORGE BASILA: Take it off
13 completely?
14 MR. SINCAVAGE: No, I wouldn't
15 take it off completely because I want some sort of
16 notice. I think -- I don't know. I'm not sure.
17 Bob, I don't know if you have any --
18 MR. GEORGE BASILA: It's kind of
19 hard to see. My legend got messed up, but the text
20 on the legend states potential PennDOT improvement.
21 Underneath where it's circled.
22 Lower. Yeah, that one.
23 MR. MILLER: Existing conserved
24 lands.
25 MR. GEORGE BASILA: No, it's
29
1 shifted below my legend.
2 MR. SINCAVAGE: No acquisition
3 required? No, I see. PennDOT intersection
4 improvements are anticipated. Not shown, but
5 future PennDOT intersection improvements.
6 MR. CARSON HELFRICH: Not shown
7 for acquisition, but PennDOT --
8 MR. BAXTER: PennDOT isn't going
9 to do what we might necessarily want to do,
10 sidewalks and those kinds of things.
11 MR. McHALE: At least it alerts
12 the property owner that we are aware of something
13 that's a potential and they can do some additional
14 research if they want with PennDOT.
15 MR. SINCAVAGE: But you think we
16 as a township need to show something more detailed,
17 maybe at the Blakeslee intersection and the Pocono
18 Summit? Don't you feel that's necessary?
19 MR. ARMSTRONG: I think if you
20 had an interest in it, the whole purpose of the
21 official map is to identify it.
22 MR. BAXTER: Just because it's
23 on there doesn't mean we have to. We have some
24 grand idea that it might work. Obviously there is
25 a lot of money issues.
30
1 MRS. LAMBERTON: What's this?
2 MR. CARSON HELFRICH: Caughbaugh
3 and Locust Ridge Road.
4 MRS. LAMBERTON: What are we
5 doing?
6 MR. GEORGE BASILA: This is a
7 line issue. Your elevation coming down this road
8 comes up at an angle.
9 MR. BAXTER: My question was
10 regarding the campground in terms of where we see
11 that going? Is that a potential acquisition in
12 addition to this?
13 MR. SINCAVAGE: I would have to
14 say the township should move very cautiously on
15 that because that's zoned commercial industrial.
16 We want to keep commercial industrial zoning as
17 much as we possibly can. It's going to be a
18 challenging site to improve, I think.
19 MR. BAXTER: Yes.
20 MR. SINCAVAGE: But, I don't
21 know if the township wants to lose any more
22 commercial industrial property that we've lost
23 already to the school district. That was
24 discussions that have gone on. It would be great
25 property for --
31
1 MR. BAXTER: Well, then we would
2 kind of look at it essentially what happened with
3 this, where the industrial or commercial
4 development has been parceled out and the water
5 frontage and wetlands have been taken out. At
6 least it's mostly the creek frontage that would be
7 so nice to have. That's going to be the challenge
8 to develop that.
9 (General discussion, not for the
10 record.)
11 MR. CARSON HELFRICH: You have
12 time to take a look at the map because it has to be
13 adopted concurrently with the ordinances. And we
14 won't really be finishing those up until the next
15 meeting, so they have some time to consider that.
16 MR. SINCAVAGE: I have a
17 question going back down to Stoddartsville. The
18 property owner down there always has that as a
19 historic area and has it even marked up I think in
20 some areas as an historic area. I wonder if we
21 should show that as a potential --
22 MR. GEORGE BASILA: It would be
23 ideal. If you were to speak to him and he's
24 interested.
25 MRS. LAMBERTON: Mr. Butler.
32
1 MR. SINCAVAGE: Yeah,
2 Mr. Butler.
3 MR. CARSON HELFRICH: Again, I
4 think you have to be careful. I mean, is that
5 something that the township would really be
6 committed to, to try to acquire that.
7 MR. SINCAVAGE: I would like to
8 take a look down there, maybe, Bob, and see what --
9 and I would talk to the property owner and see if
10 he's interested in having anything put in. That
11 would be a good area to put in.
12 MR. CARSON HELFRICH: For what,
13 acquisition as a park or for what purpose?
14 MR. SINCAVAGE: I would say open
15 space.
16 MR. CARSON HELFRICH: Open
17 space. How big of a parcel is it?
18 MR. SINCAVAGE: I don't know how
19 much he owns back there. I think he has quite a
20 bit of property back there.
21 MR. CARSON HELFRICH: It might
22 be more than one parcel.
23 MR. SINCAVAGE: Oh, yeah. It's
24 not a little lot, it's -- I don't know, does he
25 have both of them? The Kerricks are up on the top.
33
1 MRS. LAMBERTON: And Al is down
2 here.
3 MR. SINCAVAGE: I don't know if
4 Butler owns this or not.
5 MR. BAXTER: Does he own
6 anything across?
7 MR. SINCAVAGE: I don't know.
8 It's just something to look at.
9 I suggest that the township take a look at that
10 area and maybe have a discussion with Mr. Butler.
11 MRS. LAMBERTON: How many
12 townships in Pennsylvania have this official map?
13 MR. GEORGE BASILA: Not a lot.
14 MR. ARMSTRONG: We represent
15 quite a few townships down in Bucks, Montgomery,
16 and one that I know of has it.
17 MR. BAXTER: Is it something
18 that's beginning to start happening more as we are
19 doing it or --
20 MR. ARMSTRONG: Since
21 Bedminster, you're the first that I have been
22 involved with that's brought it up. It's not a
23 common thing. It's a way of thinking of doing
24 something. Not everyone agrees.
25 MR. BAXTER: A lot of areas are
34
1 so developed.
2 MR. ARMSTRONG: Bedminster I
3 think has had a somewhat of positive experience
4 with it, primarily for planning purposes. When
5 they have a certain road in mind or a certain
6 trail, when a developer comes in, they know ahead
7 of time what the township will be looking for.
8 MRS. LAMBERTON: I'm thinking
9 Chestnuthill. If you take 209, you want ag, right,
10 isn't that pretty much what they were interested in
11 preserving, agricultural --
12 MR. CARSON HELFRICH: Some ag
13 and some forest.
14 MRS. LAMBERTON: It's a
15 different typography. It's all farmland.
16 MR. CARSON HELFRICH: Right.
17 MR. SINCAVAGE: Bob did print
18 out -- Butler does own this big tract.
19 MR. GEORGE BASILA: That's his
20 name.
21 MR. SINCAVAGE: He even has it
22 under Stoddartsville Association.
23 MR. GEORGE BASILA: There might
24 be a deed restriction on it.
25 MR. SINCAVAGE: There may be.
35
1 MR. CARSON HELFRICH: That's
2 something you want to check out and talk to the
3 landowner.
4 MR. GEORGE BASILA: I'll pull it
5 out and see.
6 MR. SINCAVAGE: Okay.
7 MR. GEORGE BASILA: I'll pull
8 the deeds and see what they say.
9 MR. CARSON HELFRICH: Anything
10 else?
11 MR. MILLER: The only thing I
12 have, does that gas line go there or does it follow
13 423?
14 MR. GEORGE BASILA: It catches
15 up to 423, but I --
16 MR. MILLER: But then I thought
17 it turned up.
18 MR. SINCAVAGE: It goes that
19 way.
20 MR. McHALE: It goes to the
21 Depot.
22 MR. MILLER: On the left side of
23 the road going up --
24 MRS. LAMBERTON: You're right,
25 Joe.
36
1 MR. GEORGE BASILA: We'll have
2 to look at that. I know I have two versions. The
3 one I followed the aerial photo. Its easy to see.
4 The other one was just this layer I got off the
5 topo map.
6 MR. MILLER: It's not real
7 critical.
8 MR. GEORGE BASILA: I think on
9 the final version I might take it off. There is
10 always concern, you know, lately, with any of the,
11 you know, national infrastructure showing up on
12 public maps. I just use it in terms of showing
13 connections.
14 MR. SINCAVAGE: Bob, the only
15 other thing that came up during public discussion
16 was sewer lines, water lines and sewage plants. Do
17 we need to show any of that?
18 MR. McHALE: Most of the
19 utilities would run a lot of times within PennDOT's
20 right of way. The cross country ones, there is
21 only a couple that actually go across through the
22 township and until we have established, you know, a
23 location for another facility, it might be hard to
24 plan that far ahead.
25 MR. SINCAVAGE: Is the 537 being
37
1 worked on?
2 MR. McHALE: We are working on
3 it.
4 MR. CARSON HELFRICH: It started
5 as a 534 now it's up to 537.
6 MR. SINCAVAGE: Anything else
7 from the planning commission? Okay, we're good.
8 MRS. LAMBERTON: Thank you.
9 MR. SINCAVAGE: Carson, before
10 you leave us, I was wondering if you can give the
11 planning commission an update on the SALDO.
12 MR. CARSON HELFRICH: Sure. And
13 zoning.
14 MR. SINCAVAGE: Yep.
15 MR. CARSON HELFRICH: Yes.
16 We've been working with four municipalities. I'm
17 on a joint project in Mount Pocono, Coolbaugh,
18 Tobyhanna, Tunkhannock, and the first thing that we
19 did is we are trying to get the zoning definitions
20 consistent among the four municipalities. So
21 that's been a fun thing to do. I think it took us
22 what, 7 or 8 meetings to get through those. I
23 literally took every definition from all four
24 zoning ordinances and kind of put them all in order
25 and we went through them and decided which ones we
38
1 wanted to do. And the other thing that we are
2 going to try to do is get the four ordinances. You
3 know, we understand that all of the standards
4 cannot be the same in all four municipalities, but
5 we are going to try to kind of get them in the same
6 format so that if somebody is working in Coolbaugh
7 and Tobyhanna, the ordinances are similar in terms
8 of where things are located. Some of the standards
9 probably can be the same. I'm finding that in the
10 ordinances some are already the same. So what we
11 are currently doing now, I met with Phyllis I think
12 4 or 5 times so far. We pretty much have gotten
13 through the zoning ordinance. So we are going to
14 hopefully be getting some drafts together in the
15 next 6 months or so.
16 Then the other thing that we are
17 going to do with the subdivision ordinance is,
18 again, try to focus on definitions, if possible,
19 and then try to have some consistent road
20 standards. We felt that the procedures in each
21 municipality, you know, there is really no point in
22 trying to change those if they are all working
23 pretty well for each municipality. So that's where
24 we stand on that.
25 MR. SINCAVAGE: I have a
39
1 question. On the conservation design for say
2 residential, a residential area -- I'm hearing that
3 it's going to be a requirement that a residential
4 subdivision do a conservation design.
5 MR. CARSON HELFRICH: I don't
6 know where you heard that, but we haven't really
7 had those discussions. I mean, that's a
8 possibility. There is some municipalities that do
9 that. Most just provide it as an option with
10 either some density incentives. What we did in
11 Shohola Township in Pike County, they basically --
12 their large zone was a two-acre zone, so what we
13 did there was, if somebody did conservation design,
14 they got their long term two-acre density. But if
15 they decided not to do conservation design, the
16 minimum was 4 acres. So it was almost a
17 disincentive. And we had at least a couple of
18 property owners and their attorneys threatening a
19 challenge. We never got the challenge.
20 MR. ARMSTRONG: We've been
21 involved. Four acres is a little high.
22 MR. CARSON HELFRICH: It is,
23 other than that there's always been a two-acre
24 zone. They can still get their two-acre density,
25 but if they choose not to, then the alternative is
40
1 four acres. Now, four acres maybe is a little bit
2 high. Three acres might be better. But I thought
3 there was going to be at least one challenge. I
4 talked to a couple other planners that had lawyers,
5 attorneys calling them if they would be willing to
6 testify against them, but it never materialized.
7 MR. SINCAVAGE: So the
8 discussions on the real meat of the SALDO and the
9 zoning have not really started.
10 MR. CARSON HELFRICH: No.
11 That's correct. That's going to be more of an
12 individual municipal decision.
13 MR. SINCAVAGE: Does anyone have
14 any questions? Okay. Thank you very much.
15 MR. ARMSTRONG: I guess the
16 commission is going to be looking at this map and
17 considering it over the next month. I'll look at
18 the ordinances. Other than that, any other
19 questions, I guess of Carson?
20 Are you planning on coming back
21 in June.
22 MR. CARSON HELFRICH: Yes. If
23 you think you're ready to go over the ordinance. I
24 mean, I guess it is going to depend on what you
25 have on your agenda.
41
1 MR. SINCAVAGE: Our agenda is
2 very light right now, unfortunately, so I would say
3 we should probably get it done if we are beginning
4 to get it done. Why don't you check in with the
5 township like the week before our meeting and let's
6 see if we are going to put it on the agenda or not
7 to actually officially discuss it, but in the
8 meantime, I want you to review it. I want you to
9 look at those couple items that I brought up or we
10 brought up during the discussion and see where that
11 goes.
12 MR. GEORGE BASILA: Before the
13 next meeting, a month from now, we should try to
14 get together -- is it possible to do a little work
15 session so we can add some of these items that you
16 talked about? In June we'll have a map ready and
17 then you're not waiting until, you know --
18 MR. SINCAVAGE: Maybe do a
19 subcommittee that could meet?
20 MR. GEORGE BASILA: You know, a
21 morning, late afternoon.
22 MR. SINCAVAGE: Like if we did
23 it in two weeks.
24 MR. GEORGE BASILA: Zip in
25 before work, lay out the map on that table and show
42
1 you what we've got.
2 MR. SINCAVAGE: Two weeks would
3 you be ready?
4 MR. GEORGE BASILA: Yes.
5 Mark, I'll call you in a little
6 bit saying this is what I found out from the deeds.
7 Do you want me to get into some of the south side
8 of Tobyhanna Creek and see what's developable and
9 what's not? See how big the floodplain is?
10 MR. BAXTER: Yeah. We might as
11 well look at it.
12 MR. SINCAVAGE: We'll look at
13 it. I think the floodplain is in the park because
14 it's higher --
15 MR. GEORGE BASILA: It is.
16 MR. SINCAVAGE: On the south
17 side it's higher.
18 MR. GEORGE BASILA: Okay. At a
19 work session we can discuss this specifically.
20 MR. SINCAVAGE: How about the
21 20th, in the morning. Anybody?
22 MR. GEORGE BASILA: Like 9 a.m.
23 or 8:30?
24 MRS. LAMBERTON: I will try.
25 MS. RINEHIMER: Me personally it
43
1 would have to be earlier.
2 MRS. LAMBERTON: The earlier the
3 better for me.
4 MR. GEORGE BASILA: Good.
5 MR. SINCAVAGE: Let's
6 tentatively set it for May 20th at 8 o'clock.
7 MR. GEORGE BASILA: Sounds good.
8 MR. SINCAVAGE: Anything else?
9 Okay.
10 Brick City is on our agenda yet.
11 Anything you want to comment on that?
12 MR. ARMSTRONG: No.
13 MR. McHALE: No comments.
14 MR. SINCAVAGE: Any public
15 comments. Anyone else have anything for tonight?
16 Anybody have anything they want to talk about?
17 We are adjourned.
18 (Meeting concluded at 8:03 p.m.)
19 ---
20
21
22
23
24
25
44
1
2
3
4
5
6
7 I hereby certify that the
8 proceedings and evidence are contained fully and
9 accurately in the notes taken by me at the hearing
10 in the above matter; and that the foregoing is a
11 true and correct transcript of the same.
12
13
14
15 JOSEPHINE HOLLMAN, C.R.
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25