Before
THE TOBYHANNA TOWNSHIP PLANNING COMMISSION
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In Re: Regular Business Meeting
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Tobyhanna Township Government Center Building
State Avenue
Pocono Pines, Pennsylvania 18350
Thursday, February 4, 2010, beginning at 7 p.m.
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PRESENT: MARK SINCAVAGE, Chairperson
JOSEPH MILLER, Vice-Chairperson
ANNE LAMBERTON, Board Member
PATRICIA M. RINEHIMER, Board Member
ROBERT McHALE, P.E.,
Township Engineer
PATRICK ARMSTRONG, ESQUIRE, Solicitor
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Panko Reporting
537 Sarah Street, 2nd Floor
Stroudsburg, Pennsylvania 18360
(570) 421-3620
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1 MR. SINCAVAGE: We'll call the
2 regularly scheduled meeting of the Tobyhanna
3 Township Planning Commission to order for February
4 4, 2010. First order of business is approval of
5 the January 14th, 2010 minutes.
6 MR. MILLER: I'll make a motion
7 to approve the minutes as submitted.
8 MR. SINCAVAGE: Motion. Do I
9 have a second?
10 MRS. LAMBERTON: I second that.
11 MR. SINCAVAGE: All those in
12 favor please say aye.
13 MR. MILLER: Aye.
14 MRS. LAMBERTON: Aye.
15 MS. RINEHIMER: Aye.
16 MR. SINCAVAGE: Aye.
17 Wee Wons, did you contact them
18 and find out what is going on?
19 MR. ARMSTRONG: Still no real
20 response. We have an open ended extension from
21 them. I don't know if she's made up her mind or
22 not what she's going to be doing. I can try again.
23 MR. MILLER: She's away.
24 MR. SINCAVAGE: Don't contact
25 her. We'll let it go for a little while longer.
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1 I'll entertain a motion to table
2 Wee Wons pre/final land development plan.
3 MRS. LAMBERTON: I'll make that
4 motion.
5 MR. SINCAVAGE: Do I have a
6 second to that motion?
7 MS. RINEHIMER: I'll second it.
8 MR. SINCAVAGE: Motion and
9 seconded. All those in favor please say aye.
10 MRS. LAMBERTON: Aye.
11 MR. MILLER: Aye.
12 MS. RINEHIMER: Aye.
13 MR. SINCAVAGE: Aye.
14 Locust Ridge Quarry, we're in
15 the same situation.
16 I'll entertain a motion to table
17 Locust Ridge Quarry 940 Shop Preliminary land
18 development plan.
19 MRS. LAMBERTON: I'll make a
20 motion.
21 MR. MILLER: Second.
22 MR. SINCAVAGE: All those in
23 favor please say aye.
24 MRS. LAMBERTON: Aye.
25 MR. MILLER: Aye.
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1 MS. RINEHIMER: Aye.
2 MR. SINCAVAGE: Aye.
3 That brings us to Arrowhead
4 Lakes Community Lodge. Good evening gentlemen.
5 MR. CHAD LELLO: Chad Lello with
6 Pennoni Associates here for the second time in two
7 months. Seems like it's last week that we were
8 here. I was here on Monday with the supervisors.
9 We were here Monday night for the conditional use
10 hearing and presented. I believe everything went
11 well. There will be a decision made next Monday at
12 the supervisors' meeting.
13 We addressed Mr. McHale's first
14 comment letter, and he called us back, spoke to him
15 yesterday with some additional comments that we
16 took care of on our plans. Today he issued another
17 letter, basically some of the outstanding issues
18 that are left over to be addressed. And I guess
19 one of the largest changes to the plans, probably
20 the largest change to the plans that we have since
21 you've seen us is that large hatch area that runs
22 on the northeast, northwest corner of the building
23 around the back which is a 20 foot crushed stone
24 access road for emergency vehicles. That was one
25 of the comments by the fire department. And he had
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1 one other comment, another comment was to add fire
2 lanes on the front of the building. We added
3 those. We also tweaked the landscaping by the
4 western entrance there by pulling back the berm a
5 little bit, keep it out of the site triangles and
6 some of the vegetation. Obviously we revised the
7 proposed vegetation at the entrance to that crushed
8 stone road. We're proposing some removable
9 bollards also which can only be used by emergency
10 vehicles. That's pretty much it. I think there
11 was a couple typos we cleaned up.
12 The plans have been redated,
13 resubmitted back to Bob. We sent it PDF. We have
14 not submitted hard copies back to the township yet,
15 but we'll do that now within the next couple of
16 days, depending on if there is any other changes we
17 need to make to the plans.
18 MR. SINCAVAGE: What about the
19 lighting, Chad?
20 MR. CHAD LELLO: The lighting
21 plan, we still have an issue at the cul-de-sac. If
22 you want to switch it over to the next plan, you
23 should have a lighting plan. In the area of the
24 cul-de-sac, obviously you can't read the numbers
25 here, but we have two lights in the area of the
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1 cul-de-sac, and by code, by ordinance, by the
2 zoning ordinance code, it states you can't have
3 more than point 5 candles, more than point 5
4 candles of spillover across a property line. We
5 still have that issue there. I mean, we have
6 numbers of point 7 to point 8. I don't think we
7 can go any higher then point 8 across that property
8 line. I think it comes down to an interpretation
9 of the zoning ordinance. You know, it states --
10 basically, it clearly states no cross over the
11 property line. But the issue is, Arrowhead Lakes
12 Drive is property of Arrowhead Lakes. We have no
13 spill over into any of the adjacent properties that
14 are not owned by Arrowhead Lakes. To be honest
15 with you, I think we need a little bit of light in
16 that area anyway, since it is the access driveway
17 into the facility. It's something if we can't get
18 past it, we can certainly revise the lighting plan
19 to minimize the lighting in that area to meet the
20 code.
21 MR. McHALE: Chad and I spoke
22 this afternoon regarding this matter. It is
23 correct that as far as the cul-de-sac goes,
24 Arrowhead Lakes could ask PPL to put in a street
25 lamp that would go into the cul-de-sac area, which
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1 would create more light that's spilling over here,
2 but that's not really the issue related to this
3 plan. I guess in one spot, Chad, I think you have
4 a foot candle. And what we are trying to do there,
5 is protect those adjacent residents which are right
6 across the street, even though it fades out. It
7 does state clearly in the ordinance that at the
8 property line you have to have a half a foot candle
9 max. I think, simply, if you put a couple of
10 shields on those two lights that are there on that
11 western side of the lot, both near those 5 spaces
12 that are up near the building and then down here at
13 the drive access, you can probably meet that half a
14 foot candle. Again, it gets back to the thing
15 where it's kind of unique in that you normally
16 don't have access like that at the cul-de-sac.
17 And, usually, if you look at his plan, if you drew
18 a line, I guess, tangent to where the 40 foot right
19 of way is through the cul-de-sac, actually right
20 here, he's about at a half a foot candle, which is
21 pretty good. That's where he should be. But
22 because of the bubble of the cul-de-sac, he's not
23 meeting the ordinance. Since it is a zoning item,
24 and we can't waive things like that, I would say
25 just clean it up with some shields or change the
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1 reflectors or something at your light fixtures to
2 try to meet that point 5.
3 MR. SINCAVAGE: This issue has
4 come up before. We can't do anything about the
5 zoning issue as you know well. And while I think
6 the planning commission is sympathetic that it's a
7 road and it's okay to us if the light spills over
8 onto the roadway, unfortunately that's not the way
9 the code is written. We can only enforce the code.
10 So if you would like to go for a waiver, you
11 certainly have that option.
12 MR. CHAD LELLO: It would be
13 more of a variance.
14 MR. ARMSTRONG: It would be a
15 variance. It would probably be in your best
16 interest to maybe install some of these shields.
17 A VOICE: We would be amenable
18 to putting the shields up.
19 MR. CHAD LELLO: That's not a
20 problem. We could certainly revise the plan with
21 that.
22 MR. McHALE: The only other item
23 of any consequence is that we did receive comments
24 from the fire chief, which Chad has indicated he's
25 addressed, but we have not received a review letter
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1 back from Bureau Veritas, so we have not seen
2 anything related to the International Fire Code
3 site items or water supply for fire protection,
4 those kind of items. I don't see those as major
5 elements from the stand point that he does have
6 proper widths, he's also provided additional fire
7 lane access around the back of the building. He
8 may not need as much as he as shown there. I think
9 that when Bureau Veritas has looked or when
10 Guardian used to look at these plans, they
11 indicated they needed 150 feet maximum distance
12 from any paved surface or all-weather surface. So
13 you might be able to trim that back a little bit.
14 That's up to you all. But I would work that out
15 with Bureau Veras and the fire chief. So they have
16 addressed again the comments of the fire chief.
17 MR. CHAD LELLO: The only other
18 outstanding permit is the erosion control permit
19 from the Monroe County Conversation District. We
20 have all the comments addressed. We'll be
21 resubmitting back to them in the next day or two.
22 I believe all those issues are addressed. If you
23 wanted to take a look at this letter here, go
24 through each of the open items, I mean you can
25 certainly look at that. That's up to you. But I
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1 think the other thing that we can't forget about is
2 the waivers. We requested five waivers, and I
3 believe you folks have to take some action on them.
4 Mr. McHale has listed basically all five waivers in
5 the letter. He's stated that, you know, he
6 basically recommends that they be approved.
7 Certainly, I'd like to get that accomplished
8 tonight. And, ultimately, we certainly would like
9 to see if we can get the project at least up to a
10 conditional approval tonight.
11 MR. SINCAVAGE: Pat, do you have
12 any further comments?
13 MR. ARMSTRONG: Just a
14 clarification. Is it 77 parking spaces or 73?
15 MR. CHAD LELLO: 73. Total of
16 70 parking spaces.
17 MR. ARMSTRONG: 70. So it would
18 just be one amendment to your letter, just to make
19 it 70.
20 MR. CHAD LELLO: Right.
21 MR. ARMSTRONG: And are you
22 indicating that you're going to comply with all the
23 comments and requirements in Mr. McHale's letter
24 dated February 4, 2010?
25 MR. CHAD LELLO: Yes.
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1 MR. ARMSTRONG: And you're going
2 to comply with the fire department's letter dated
3 February 1st, 2010?
4 MR. CHAD LELLO: That's correct.
5 MR. ARMSTRONG: And you're also
6 going to comply with any requirements that you
7 receive from Bureau Veritas which is the building
8 code officials for the township?
9 MR. CHAD LELLO: Absolutely.
10 MR. ARMSTRONG: And are you
11 going to put together a cost estimate for some of
12 the improvements required?
13 MR. CHAD LELLO: We can
14 certainly do that, wherever is required, whatever
15 is needed.
16 MR. ARMSTRONG: Get together or
17 contact Bob and put a list together because for the
18 development agreement and financial security that
19 will be needed, the amount for whatever
20 improvements, I'm guessing the stormwater, the
21 well. You can talk with Bob.
22 Does the commission want to go
23 through the waivers to see what they are
24 requesting?
25 MR. SINCAVAGE: No. The waivers
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1 are standard, so we don't have any problem with
2 those. We went over those last time. We have no
3 problem with them.
4 MRS. LAMBERTON: No.
5 MR. ARMSTRONG: I think the only
6 other thing, you mentioned erosion control from the
7 county. You also need approval from PA DEP for the
8 sewer, don't you?
9 MR. CHAD LELLO: We need an
10 approval letter from DEP.
11 MR. SINCAVAGE: I'll entertain a
12 motion to recommend to the board of supervisors to
13 approve the Arrowhead Lakes Community Association
14 proposed community lodge land development plan
15 conditioned upon the items outlined by the
16 attorney, including in compliance with the township
17 engineer's letter dated February 4, 2010; and
18 further recommend the approval of the waivers
19 requested being specifically SALDO Section
20 135.12.D.2, SALDO Section 135.15.A.15, SALDO
21 Section 135.17.L, SALDO Section 135.17.M, SALDO
22 Section 135.22.A.2.
23 Did I cover everything? Do I
24 have a motion?
25 MR. MILLER: I'll make that
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1 motion.
2 MR. SINCAVAGE: I have a motion.
3 Do I have a second to the motion?
4 MRS. LAMBERTON: I'll second the
5 motion.
6 MR. SINCAVAGE: Any discussion?
7 All those in favor please say aye.
8 MR. MILLER: Aye.
9 MRS. LAMBERTON: Aye.
10 MS. RINEHIMER: Aye.
11 MR. SINCAVAGE: Aye. Good luck
12 gentlemen.
13 MR. ARMSTRONG: Just so the
14 applicant understands, this is a recommendation.
15 The board of supervisors will have to look at the
16 land development plan and they'll have final action
17 on this plan.
18 Is this a preliminary final?
19 MR. McHALE: Yes.
20 MR. CHAD LELLO: When will they
21 review the land development plan? At the work
22 session?
23 MR. McHALE: March.
24 MR. ARMSTRONG: They typically
25 don't take formal action at their work session. It
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1 will be the second Monday in March.
2 MR. CHAD LELLO: Second Monday
3 in March.
4 MR. ARMSTRONG: March 8th.
5 MRS. LAMBERTON: March 8 would
6 be the meeting.
7 MR. CHAD LELLO: We should be
8 present for the March 8th work session?
9 MR. SINCAVAGE: March 1st is the
10 work session.
11 MR. CHAD LELLO: March 1st is
12 the work session. March 8th is the general
13 meeting.
14 MR. SINCAVAGE: Right.
15 MR. ARMSTRONG: If you're going
16 to submit any revised plans like for the shielding
17 of the lights, do it before their March 1st
18 meeting.
19 MR. McHALE: A week before their
20 work session because at the work session they
21 typically look at the plans. They may take action
22 at the following week.
23 A VOICE: Would a catalogue cut
24 of the shielding be adequate?
25 MR. McHALE: Yes. And the
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1 revised photometrics.
2 MR. ARMSTRONG: Anything else
3 they need to revise?
4 MR. CHAD LELLO: Okay. Thank
5 you very much, ladies and gentlemen.
6 MR. SINCAVAGE: Anything the
7 board wishes to discuss?
8 The only thing I wanted just to
9 touch on, since we have a couple minutes here, we
10 did discuss aesthetics and I did get some pictures
11 taken. The only two I really got was the insurance
12 building and the ESSA bank building. I looked
13 around for other things. I can't find anything. I
14 know you sent me something.
15 MRS. LAMBERTON: I was thinking
16 of maybe taking some rustic photos to compare
17 something more traditional with like the Poconos.
18 The Pocono Brew Pub has like a rustic design. I
19 think we can compare that, because we need a couple
20 different ideas to present to people. I was
21 thinking conforming with the Poconos, with the ski
22 lodge kind of atmosphere. Maybe we want to touch
23 upon that because that might be attractive to some
24 folks. I think your house should be something. I
25 love it. I love that house. I think that's Pocono
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1 Pines.
2 MR. SINCAVAGE: You're talking
3 about 611, the Pocono --
4 MRS. LAMBERTON: Yes. I'm
5 looking commercially. Like if you take the cedar
6 exterior on Shiro's, that's a beautiful building.
7 You know, could you imagine coming into a hub of a
8 town where the buildings are moved forward with the
9 sidewalks, with something like that, the parking
10 behind, that would be beautiful. And we'll have
11 your house right in the middle, and the stone --
12 look at all of our lakes. It's all cobblestone. I
13 mean, it's just a natural product of the area that
14 I think would add to it.
15 MR. McHALE: There is a couple
16 other homes built around that same time area over
17 by Brady's Lake.
18 MRS. LAMBERTON: The caretaker's
19 house. There are a couple of others, Irene Gross'
20 old house, right down from Joe's, it's more of an
21 estate look, but it will lend some ideas.
22 MR. SINCAVAGE: Do you have a
23 digital camera?
24 MRS. LAMBERTON: I certainly do.
25 It's actually in my purse right now.
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1 MR. SINCAVAGE: Can you take
2 some of those pictures?
3 MRS. LAMBERTON: And get
4 arrested for stalking? Sure.
5 MR. ARMSTRONG: Stay off private
6 property. I feel it's my need to advise you.
7 MRS. LAMBERTON: Thanks Patrick.
8 I think that we should move forward with this, even
9 if we can get some public interest and see if folks
10 are interested in entertaining something. And then
11 if you get that support, then you know that -- you
12 know, they are the tax payers, they'd like to see
13 something like that.
14 MR. SINCAVAGE: What I'd like to
15 do is I want to get those photos, get a foam board,
16 or even just that side the plan is on, so that
17 we'll have it here in the room, have pictures with
18 maybe a little description of what we would like.
19 Bob, maybe you can help me with the more technical
20 terms about this is what we like and why we like
21 it. Even if we have it in the room, Pat said, you
22 know, we can at least point to it and say this is
23 the type of look we want.
24 MR. ARMSTRONG: In the same
25 lines, it didn't really come in play with the lodge
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1 because they actually presented it, but you can
2 always request to see architectural depictions.
3 MRS. LAMBERTON: Yes, I think
4 that would be a great idea.
5 MR. SINCAVAGE: At least if we
6 have the board, we can show them, even have it
7 here, Bob, when you have a pre-meeting, you can say
8 this is what the board will be looking for. This
9 is what the commission will be looking for.
10 MRS. LAMBERTON: I had asked
11 that with Chuck Hannig with the model home, I
12 wanted to see what it actually was going to look
13 like.
14 MR. ARMSTRONG: He brought it
15 in.
16 MRS. LAMBERTON: He did.
17 MR. ARMSTRONG: It's the kind of
18 thing, if you don't ask -- they did it without
19 asking, the lodge.
20 MR. McHALE: We actually asked
21 them earlier on around the pre-app. But that is
22 correct, it's in the ordinance that you can request
23 it, but it has to be the PC or the board that
24 requests those floor plans and elevations.
25 MR. SINCAVAGE: I think if we
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1 have an example of what we are looking for, at
2 least we have something to point to. So if you
3 give me the photos, and I'll take on the
4 responsibility to print them out. Send them to me
5 electronically and I'll print them out on the
6 printer. I'll get them on the foam board so we
7 have something.
8 MRS. LAMBERTON: Okay.
9 MR. SINCAVAGE: If anybody else
10 has anything.
11 MRS. LAMBERTON: If you have
12 anything that you think of. If we have a couple of
13 different variations folks can see.
14 MR. MILLER: Mountain Top Lodge.
15 MRS. LAMBERTON: Yes.
16 MR. McHALE: Even within the
17 township and the different areas of the township.
18 MRS. LAMBERTON: You've got some
19 houses back in Lake Naomi. Give me some ideas. I
20 know security.
21 MS. WENDI FREEMAN: We can
22 provide the elevations -- we require elevation
23 drawings on everything that comes in, so if you're
24 interested in seeing a set of elevation drawings,
25 I'm sure that wouldn't be a problem.
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1 MR. SINCAVAGE: That would be
2 great. Do you have it in digital format?
3 MS. WENDI FREEMAN: No.
4 MR. SINCAVAGE: If not, bring
5 the paper. I'll work from the paper.
6 MS. WENDI FREEMAN: Usually we
7 require a large blues plus we require a small set
8 that the committee, that our architectural
9 committee all gets. Those could be scanned and
10 sent to you digitally.
11 MR. SINCAVAGE: If you could do
12 that, that would be great.
13 MRS. LAMBERTON: What about the
14 welcome center? Different ideas for different
15 types of buildings because you don't want to limit
16 people if they need a larger square footage and the
17 design does not work.
18 MR. SINCAVAGE: Absolutely. So,
19 to complete this work, I'll put a time frame on
20 this. If we can get it done by say the April
21 meeting.
22 MRS. LAMBERTON: Let's do March.
23 Do you want leaves? It's kind
24 of a starch time of the year.
25 MR. SINCAVAGE: Let's get some
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1 pictures. Start working on it.
2 Anything else?
3 MR. ARMSTRONG: The supervisors
4 have requested your presence at the work session in
5 March. They are going over that official map,
6 future land use map.
7 MR. SINCAVAGE: What time is
8 their meeting?
9 MRS. LAMBERTON: 3:30.
10 MR. ARMSTRONG: That's it.
11 MR. SINCAVAGE: Send us an
12 email.
13 Anything else to come before the
14 board? If not, we'll stand adjourned.
15 (Meeting adjourned at 7:20 p.m.)
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8 I hereby certify that the
9 proceedings and evidence are contained fully and
10 accurately in the notes taken by me at the hearing
11 in the above matter; and that the foregoing is a
12 true and correct transcript of the same.
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16 JOSEPHINE HOLLMAN, C.R.
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