Before
THE TOBYHANNA TOWNSHIP PLANNING COMMISSION
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In Re: Regular Business Meeting
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Tobyhanna Township Government Center Building
State Avenue
Pocono Pines, Pennsylvania 18350
Thursday, December 3, 2009, beginning at 7 p.m.
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PRESENT: JOSEPH MILLER, Vice-Chairperson
ROBERT BAXTER, Board Member
ANNE LAMBERTON, Board Member
PATRICIA M. RINEHIMER, Board Member
ROBERT McHALE, P.E.,
Township Engineer
PATRICK ARMSTRONG, ESQUIRE, Solicitor
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Panko Reporting
537 Sarah Street, 2nd Floor
Stroudsburg, Pennsylvania 18360
(570) 421-3620
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1 MR. MILLER: We'll call the
2 meeting to order, December 3rd, 2009 Tobyhanna
3 Township Planning Commission. Any public comment
4 at this time?
5 The minutes for November 5 have
6 not been submitted in full. Do I hear a motion to
7 approve the minutes in the January meeting, to
8 table to the January meeting?
9 MS. RINEHIMER: I'll make the
10 motion.
11 MR. BAXTER: Second.
12 MR. MILLER: All in favor?
13 MR. BAXTER: Aye.
14 MS. RINEHIMER: Aye.
15 MR. MILLER: Under old business,
16 Wee Wons Day Care, preliminary/final land
17 development plan. I don't think there is anything
18 new. They might have even withdrawn. I guess the
19 best thing to do would be to table any action since
20 we don't know.
21 MR. BAXTER: I'll make that
22 motion.
23 MS. RINEHIMER: I'll second.
24 MR. MILLER: All in favor?
25 MR. BAXTER: Aye.
3
1 MS. RINEHIMER: Aye.
2 MR. MILLER: Second item under
3 old business, Locust Ridge Quarry, 940 Shop
4 preliminary land development plan. Do I hear a
5 motion to table?
6 MR. BAXTER: So moved.
7 MS. RINEHIMER: Second.
8 MR. MILLER: All in favor?
9 MR. BAXTER: Aye.
10 MS. RINEHIMER: Aye.
11 MR. MILLER: Under new business,
12 Aqua PA Control Building, revisions to a PRD.
13 MR. GABLE: Good evening. My
14 name is Mike Gable with RKR Hess Associates. I'm
15 here tonight with Roswell McMullen from Aqua
16 Pennsylvania. What Aqua Pennsylvania is attempting
17 to do is take the existing control facility, which
18 is located in the existing sales building that's
19 located approximately here -- the system that's in
20 there is quite antiquated. It's 25, almost 30
21 years old now. It needs to be completely gutted
22 and upgraded. The permit that was submitted as
23 part of the Phase 5 and 6 plans called for complete
24 remodeling and gutting the back room and the
25 systems were all going to be upgraded. At that
4
1 time the system was owned by Pinecrest Development
2 Corp. Since then the system has been sold to Aqua
3 Pennsylvania in 2006.
4 MR. McMULLEN: Yes.
5 MR. GABLE: When they had
6 purchased the system they had requested that I
7 remain on board as their facilities engineer for
8 this development; also look to modify the approved
9 permit plan to allow for the water supply system to
10 have a stand-alone building so they can take their
11 controls out of the building that's in common with
12 the Pinecrest Sales Office and move it to the new
13 stand-alone building which is located approximately
14 here.
15 MR. MILLER: Where is that?
16 MR. GABLE: That is right along
17 State Avenue, this point here I'm pointing at now.
18 MR. MILLER: Where is their
19 office?
20 MR. GABLE: It's right on the
21 corner, the old post office.
22 MR. MILLER: Yes.
23 MR. GABLE: So what we are
24 looking to do now is to update the old Phase 5, 6
25 plans to just indicate that there is this change,
5
1 for lack of a better term. More of a procedural
2 situation. The township engineer and the attorney
3 had requested that we go through this process.
4 Really, we are doing -- Aqua PA is doing it on
5 behalf of the existing developer that's developed
6 the Phase 5, 6 portion. The state of that
7 development is somewhat in limbo in that with the
8 economy the way it is they haven't had sales or
9 what have you. So Aqua PA, they need to move this
10 along. They need to upgrade the facility to meet
11 the current standards and to comply with the
12 conditions under their public water supply permit.
13 So tonight we are here to present those plans to
14 you to request your recommendations of approval so
15 we can move it along to the supervisors and
16 hopefully have this thing constructed in the near
17 future.
18 MR. ARMSTRONG: You said you're
19 doing it on behalf of the developer. Which --
20 MR. GABLE: Kind of. If you
21 remember, Aqua PA is submitting this application.
22 Their name is on the owner's affidavit and saying
23 that they are making this application. Just to
24 refresh everyone's memory, Phase 5 and 6 is
25 actually this piece of land. When those plans for
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1 Phase 5, 6 came in, they had included as an
2 attachment to those plans a public water supply
3 permit plans. Do we have the overall sheet? That
4 would show -- here we are today. Here's the
5 township municipal building right here at this
6 location. The building that we are talking about
7 constructing is located here. The existing sales
8 office is here. Phase 5 and 6, with the townhomes,
9 the 76, 77 units is this area. The development was
10 actually this piece of land, however, the plans
11 that were submitted to the township as supporting
12 documents show the public water supply improvements
13 actually include the water storage tank, which has
14 been constructed at this location, shows the
15 transmission main coming down through here and
16 connecting all the way down through. And it also
17 shows the reworkings of the facilities through here
18 and the replacement of the line.
19 MR. ARMSTRONG: So 5 and 6
20 actually shows the control building.
21 MR. GABLE: 5 and 6 actually
22 shows the control building more as a supporting
23 document rather than as part of the development
24 itself.
25 What we needed to do at that
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1 time for that development was to show that the
2 facilities that are existing can provide services.
3 We decided it couldn't, so we had to show that --
4 the township and DEP -- that here's the
5 improvements we are doing to ensure it can provide
6 the services to the new development.
7 So that said, what we need to do
8 now is just simply update those plans that were
9 previously submitted on the 4, 5 and 6 plans with
10 what you see now, just to make sure the township
11 files are complete and the township approvals are
12 consistent with what is to be constructed out in
13 the field. This is, for lack of a better term,
14 probably a modification to the original Phase 5
15 approval.
16 MR. ARMSTRONG: Ownership of the
17 property is not at issue?
18 MR. GABLE: The current owner of
19 this piece of land that comes this way is Deer Run
20 Corporation.
21 MR. ARMSTRONG: Where the
22 existing control building is --
23 MR. GABLE: Existing and the
24 proposed.
25 MR. ARMSTRONG: Deer Run.
8
1 MR. GABLE: Deer Run
2 Corporation. There is documents that I had seen
3 that calls for Deer Run Corporation to be merged to
4 and become part of Pinecrest Development
5 Corporation. So it looks like Pinecrest
6 Development Corporation actually owns Deer Run
7 Corporation, but we are in the process of
8 finalizing who has exact ownership. In reality, Ed
9 Carroll owns both Deer Run Corp and Pinecrest
10 Development Corporation. It's just a matter of
11 getting the paperwork to line up and going through
12 that process and satisfying the legal parties for
13 Aqua Pennsylvania and the township.
14 MR. ARMSTRONG: You will be
15 confirming ownership of the property?
16 MR. GABLE: As part of the
17 process, yes.
18 MR. ARMSTRONG: Is Pinecrest
19 Development Corp, were they the developer for Phase
20 5, for Phases 5 and 6 or was it a different
21 developer?
22 MR. GABLE: C and M Builders at
23 the time were the applicants that submitted the
24 plan to the township as equitable owners with
25 Pinecrest Development still actually owning the
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1 land. Something along the lines from the time that
2 we obtained the approvals to the time when
3 construction happened there was a falling out
4 between C and M Builders and Pinecrest Development
5 Corporation. At that time Pinecrest Development
6 Corporation took the ownership of the development
7 back and then conveyed development rights to -- the
8 name of the developer that took over --
9 MR. McHALE: Tisher Corporation.
10 MR. GABLE: Tisher Corporation.
11 Tisher Corporation now owns the footprints within
12 Phases 5 and 6 and of course the common elements
13 within 5 and 6. The stormwater management, the
14 roads, what have you, are all owned by the
15 Pinecrest Trust.
16 MR. ARMSTRONG: Okay. Is Tisher
17 aware of this?
18 MR. GABLE: Yes. They were
19 aware of it about three and a half years ago or so
20 when I told them I'm doing these revisions and what
21 have you. They don't have any real concerns with
22 what we are doing. It doesn't really impact what
23 they are doing over there.
24 MR. ARMSTRONG: Right. It looks
25 like it's fairly out of the way.
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1 MR. GABLE: Right.
2 MR. BAXTER: They stopped doing
3 anything?
4 MR. GABLE: Yes. It's sad.
5 MR. BAXTER: Didn't even finish
6 siding.
7 MR. GABLE: He's taken this
8 development off his primary web page. I took a
9 look two, three weeks ago. Unfortunately we don't
10 know what his intentions are, how to start
11 marketing that project again and moving forward.
12 The township could probably ask Ed Carroll if he
13 knows anything. If anybody would know what is
14 going on it would be Ed Carroll; or Brandon Carroll
15 would be more in contact with Tisher.
16 MR. ARMSTRONG: Sitting here I'm
17 not sure if you really need Tisher's approval to
18 amend the 5 and 6 plan, but do you have a contract
19 there that it would be a problem? Maybe even just
20 to get some kind of communications with them to
21 make sure they are on board with it. You don't
22 have to call them tonight.
23 MR. GABLE: I can communicate
24 with them.
25 MR. McHALE: This is a
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1 recommending body. They will make a
2 recommendation. The final decision will be before
3 the board of supervisors.
4 MR. GABLE: Sure. I can call
5 Jeremy Tisher and see what his intentions are to
6 see what's going on and maybe fish some information
7 from him and find out what is going on. I'm
8 curious. This has been my project for 10 years now
9 and I hate to see the thing fall flat on its face.
10 It's sad.
11 MR. ARMSTRONG: There is a
12 review letter from the township engineer dated
13 today. I don't know if you wanted to go through
14 that, Bob, or if you wanted the applicant to go
15 through it. It seems pretty straight forward.
16 MR. GABLE: Bob and I have had
17 correspondence going back and forth, both written,
18 email and phone conversations about how to bring
19 things into order. He had asked us to do a couple
20 things and some acknowledgement -- ownership
21 acknowledgment on the plans to be consistent
22 with -- the applicant, Aqua Pennsylvania, current
23 owner of Deer Run Corp, and what have you, on the
24 plans, so that certifications meet the township's,
25 so when it gets recorded as an acknowledgement --
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1 the ownership acknowledgement of what is being
2 recorded.
3 Bob had asked us to go through
4 the process of confirming the ownership and
5 establishing the easement. There is a blanket
6 easement between Aqua Pennsylvania and Pinecrest
7 Development Corp for all water and sewer facilities
8 in the entire Pinecrest Development. It does have
9 language that says expansion, improvements and what
10 have you, but it's not as specific as Aqua's
11 internal attorney would like it to be. So what we
12 had done was prepared a plan specific to this
13 development and these proposed improvements, and we
14 are going to request a waiver specific to what we
15 are doing now or easement specifically to what we
16 are doing now so we can have a formal --
17 MR. ARMSTRONG: So you'll be
18 submitting or providing the township with
19 confirmation of ownership easements, whatever?
20 MR. GABLE: Right. Confirmation
21 of ownership. Do you want something more than Deer
22 Run Corporation to sign the plan? We can provide
23 you with a copy of the deed, of course.
24 MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, a copy of
25 the deed and obviously the plan as well, but the
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1 deed.
2 MR. GABLE: There is a note,
3 Item No. 3, that Bob had asked us to revise to be
4 consistent with what the application was going to
5 be. That's currently been done. We had provided
6 that this project is going to be accessed directly
7 off of State Road or State Avenue, which does
8 require a driveway occupancy permit from the
9 township. That permit application will be filed
10 prior to construction going forward as a parallel
11 process that is not part of the SALDO requirements,
12 separate ordinance altogether. So that will be
13 done.
14 Bob had pointed out to us that
15 the section of the ordinance requires the first 20
16 feet coming off a township road to be pavement.
17 The new plans that we prepared, the township has a
18 digital copy here and we'll leave a paper copy for
19 Bob, for his review, do indicate 20 feet of
20 pavement going in.
21 This project, given its small
22 nature, is exempt from preparing a formal
23 stormwater management plan. There is still a
24 requirement that stormwater management is addressed
25 so that way you don't cause drainage concerns to
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1 the down slope receiving areas. This project is
2 very simple. It's a very small building. It's 450
3 odd square feet. Very small. So what we are
4 proposing to do is take the upper area of the
5 parking area -- I can't see it on the sheet. This
6 window down here is a blowup of the pump house.
7 This area approximately through here is going to be
8 clean stone. The stormwater from the roof and from
9 the up slope drainage area, which is approximately
10 this area delineated here, will flow into that
11 driveway area. It will go into the stone and
12 percolate into the ground. The stone will be 8
13 inches deep. That volume of stone is enough to
14 offset the de minimus amount of impervious area we
15 are creating. So the stormwater is addressed in
16 that manner. Bob had asked me to add some notation
17 on the plan and some flow directions, which are now
18 on the plans, to show specifically how that is
19 being handled.
20 That was Item No. C as well.
21 Bob had also asked us to add a detail on the access
22 driveway aprons for the pavement specifications
23 detail sheet. That has been done as well. When
24 these improvements are finally done, what has to
25 happen as a condition of the permit that exists
15
1 with DEP is an operational permit needs to be
2 submitted to the department. Operational permit is
3 a document submitted to the department that says,
4 yes, we are done with the project, DEP please come
5 out and inspect our project. They will come out,
6 do an inspection, make notes of comments. Make us
7 fix anything they don't like. Once everything has
8 been addressed, they actually issue the operations
9 permit that says, yes, now you are allowed to
10 operate this system with no further scrutiny from a
11 permitting perspective. And, of course, there will
12 be ongoing reviews and site visitation by the local
13 sanitary to make sure everything is in accordance
14 with the local standards.
15 And there was a miss note on the
16 general notes as far as water and sewer
17 separations. And that note has been subsequently
18 revised to be -- corrected to be consistent with
19 state regulations. And I would just request your
20 conditional approval so we can move the project
21 along and get this building built, get the project
22 put to rest so we can have the operation permit
23 submitted to DEP. It's been quite sometime.
24 MR. ARMSTRONG: Is there a new
25 access being proposed?
16
1 MR. GABLE: A small driveway
2 which is right here. Here's the existing well. Do
3 you know where the well is?
4 MR. ARMSTRONG: I have seen the
5 building because I pass it every time I come
6 through.
7 MR. GABLE: Here's the back of
8 the parking are. Here's the well here. This is
9 about where they've got a couple vehicles sitting
10 here and a couple rocks sitting in this area.
11 Right now there is an existing gravel area that's
12 cut off on the side of the road. That's been there
13 forever. Looks like Pinecrest Development Corp has
14 an RV parked there for quite sometime, parking
15 miscellaneous vehicles there.
16 MR. MILLER: Bob, do you have
17 any comments at this point?
18 MR. McHALE: No, sir.
19 MR. MILLER: What would be our
20 next step here?
21 MR. ARMSTRONG: If the
22 commission doesn't have any other questions for the
23 applicant, you're satisfied with what he is
24 proposing, you can make recommendations for
25 approval conditional upon the applicant complying
17
1 with all of the comments and requirements in the
2 December 3rd, 2009 township engineer's review
3 letter; as well as confirming the ownership and
4 providing a deed for the property; as well as the
5 applicant indicate ability to communicate and
6 confirm that Tisher Corporation, the developer for
7 Phases 5 and 6, is agreeable to the revisions.
8 MR. BAXTER: I make that motion.
9 MR. MILLER: Do I hear a second?
10 MS. RINEHIMER: I second it.
11 MR. MILLER: Any comments? All
12 in favor?
13 MR. BAXTER: Aye.
14 MS. RINEHIMER: Aye.
15 MRS. LAMBERTON: Aye.
16 MR. MILLER: Aye.
17 Next item is open discussion.
18 Anything? Bob, do you have anything for the board?
19 MR. McHALE: No, sir.
20 MR. MILLER: Anybody?
21 Anybody have any questions or
22 comments. There is no public.
23 Motion to adjourn.
24 MR. BAXTER: So moved.
25 MR. MILLER: Second to that?
18
1 MS. RINEHIMER: Second.
2 MR. MILLER: We are adjourned.
3 (Meeting adjourned at 7:18 p.m.)
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10 I hereby certify that the
11 proceedings and evidence are contained fully and
12 accurately in the notes taken by me at the hearing
13 in the above matter; and that the foregoing is a
14 true and correct transcript of the same.
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18 JOSEPHINE HOLLMAN, C.R.
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