Before
THE TOBYHANNA TOWNSHIP BOARD OF SUPERVISORS
---
In Re: Conditional use hearing on the
application of Anthony Novak,
Lost Trails, L.L.C.
---
Tobyhanna Township Government Center Building
State Avenue
Pocono Pines, Pennsylvania 18350
Wednesday, November 11, 2009, beginning at
6:30 p.m.
---
PRESENT: JOHN E. KERRICK, Chairperson
HEIDI PICKARD, Vice-Chairperson
JAMIE B. KEENER, Board Member
ANNE LAMBERTON, Board Member
PATRICK ARMSTRONG, ESQUIRE, Solicitor
---
Panko Reporting
537 Sarah Street, 2nd Floor
Stroudsburg, Pennsylvania 18360
(570) 421-3620
2
INDEX TO WITNESS
APPLICANT'S
WITNESS DIRECT
ANTHONY NOVAK .................................. 9
INDEX TO EXHIBITS
BOARD FOR INTO
EXHIBIT NO. I.D. EVD.
1 A Proof of Publication ...... 4....8
2 A Certificate of Posting .... 4....8
3 A Legal Notice .............. 6....8
4 Correspondence Dated
November 5, 2009 ............ 7....8
5 Correspondence to the
Pocono Record for
advertisement of said
hearing...................... 7....8
6 Notification to Mr. Cahill
of said hearing.............. 7....8
7 Correspondence Dated
October 16, 2009 ............ 7....8
8 A Conditional Use Application
Dated September 30, 2009 .... 7....8
9 Planning Commission comments
as outlined by
Attorney Armstrong .......... 8....8
APPLICANT FOR INTO
EXHIBIT NO. I.D. EVD.
1 A Packet .................. 21
3
INDEX TO EXHIBITS CONTINUED
APPLICANT'S FOR INTO
EXHIBIT NO. I.D. EVD.
2 Correspondence Dated
October 20, 2009 .......... 26
3 An Email .................. 26
4 A Map ..................... 30
*Exhibits retained by Attorney Armstrong.
---
4
1 MR. ARMSTRONG: Good evening.
2 My name is Patrick Armstrong, the solicitor for
3 Tobyhanna Township. We are here this evening for a
4 conditional use public hearing. The application
5 was filed by Lost Trails for a right to operate an
6 ATV use recreational facility on its property.
7 And at this point I'm going to open up the hearing.
8 And some housekeeping items for purposes of this
9 hearing are I'm going to be marking certain records
10 and exhibits for the board.
11 Exhibit B-1 will be the proof of publications
12 from the Pocono Record evidencing that the legal
13 notice for this public hearing was advertised on
14 October 27 and November 7 or, I'm sorry, November
15 3rd. Exhibit B-2 is a certificate from the
16 Township of Tobyhanna zoning officer, Phyllis
17 Haase, certificating that she posted the property
18 on November 4, 2009 at 3:10 p.m.; and attached to
19 that exhibit are photographs of the property with
20 the legal notice posted on the property.
21 (A Proof of Publication was
22 marked for identification by Mr. Armstrong as Board
23 Exhibit No. 1.)
24 (A Certificate of Posting was
25 marked for identification by Mr. Armstrong as Board
5
1 Exhibit No. 2.)
2 MR. ARMSTRONG: Exhibit B-3 is
3 the actual legal notice. And the legal notice
4 states that notice is hereby given that the board
5 of supervisors of Tobyhanna Township will consider
6 a conditional use application of Anthony Novak,
7 Lost Trails, L.L.C., at a public hearing to be held
8 on Wednesday, November 11, 2009, at 6:30 p.m., at
9 the Tobyhanna Township Government Center Building,
10 State Avenue, Pocono Pines, Monroe County,
11 Pennsylvania. The legal notice continues to state
12 that the location of the proposed indoor/outdoor
13 commercial recreational use is Lot 4, Block 95
14 along Sullivan Trail Road, State Route 4004,
15 Tobyhanna Township, Pennsylvania, and is the
16 property of Pocono Manor Investors, L.P., being
17 known as Monroe County Tax Map Parcel No. 19/111902
18 and PIN No. 19634400958628.
19 The applicant, pursuant to the
20 Township of Tobyhanna Code of Ordinances, Chapter
21 155 -- Section 155-16.D.1 and Section 155-102,
22 regarding indoor/outdoor commercial recreational
23 uses, has requested an approval to maintain the use
24 of an ATV recreational facility on the
25 aforementioned property. A copy of the conditional
6
1 use application may be viewed at the Tobyhanna
2 Township building during regular business hours.
3 A public hearing on this conditional use
4 application shall take place at the aforementioned
5 time and place before the board of supervisors of
6 Tobyhanna Township, and all interested parties and
7 the public are welcome to attend.
8 (A Legal Notice was marked for
9 identification by Mr. Armstrong as Board Exhibit
10 No. 3.)
11 MR. ARMSTRONG: Exhibit B-4 is a
12 correspondence dated November 5, 2009 from my
13 office to the applicant, Mr. Novak, notifying him
14 again of the public hearing this evening, as well
15 as the review of the planning commission at the
16 planning commission meeting of November 5th, 2009.
17 Exhibit B-5 is a correspondence from Margie Argot
18 from Tobyhanna Township Administration Building to
19 the Pocono Record requesting that the legal notice
20 be advertised on October 27th and November 3rd.
21 Exhibit B-6 is correspondence from my office to
22 James Cahill of Pocono Manor Investors, the owner
23 of the property, notifying Mr. Cahill of the public
24 hearing this evening for November 11, 2009.
25 (Correspondence Dated November
7
1 5, 2009 was marked for identification by Mr.
2 Armstrong as Board Exhibit No. 4.)
3 (Correspondence to the Pocono
4 Record for advertisement of hearing was marked for
5 identification by Mr. Armstrong as Board Exhibit
6 No. 5.)
7 (Notification to Mr. Cahill of
8 said hearing was marked for identification by Mr.
9 Armstrong as Board Exhibit No. 6.)
10 MR. ARMSTRONG: Exhibit B-7 is a
11 correspondence from my office dated October 16th of
12 2009, addressed to Tony Novak of Lost Trails,
13 L.L.C., notifying him of the public hearing this
14 evening. Exhibit B-8 is the application of Lost
15 Trails, L.L.C., for the conditional use dated
16 September 30th, 2009. And Exhibit B-9 is a
17 correspondence from my office to the board of
18 supervisors outlining the comments from the
19 planning commission at the planning commission's
20 November 5th, 2009 meeting reviewing the Lost
21 Trails conditional use application.
22 (Correspondence Dated October
23 16, 2009 was marked for identification by Mr.
24 Armstrong as Board Exhibit No. 7.)
25 (A Conditional Use Application
8
1 Dated September 30, 2009 was marked for
2 identification by Mr. Armstrong as Board Exhibit
3 No. 8.)
4 (Planning Commission comments as
5 outlined by Attorney Armstrong were marked for
6 identification by Mr. Armstrong as Board Exhibit
7 No. 9.)
8 MR. ARMSTRONG: Any comments
9 from the applicant or the public on those certain
10 documents?
11 MR. NOVAK: There are no
12 comments on the documents.
13 MR. ARMSTRONG: Those documents
14 will be entered into the record, identified as B-1
15 through B-9 as set forth previously.
16 We are here for a public hearing
17 this evening. Is there anyone in the audience that
18 wishes a party status other than the applicant?
19 Seeing none, anyone in the audience that wants to
20 make any kind of public comment may still do so.
21 This is a public hearing for a
22 conditional use application. The board of
23 supervisors are sitting in a quasi judicial
24 position here this evening. They will be hearing
25 the testimony of the applicant and the evidence
9
1 submitted by the applicant, and will be making a
2 decision on this conditional use application based
3 upon the township zoning ordinance as well as other
4 applicable ordinances and regulations governing the
5 conditional use being applied for.
6 Having the majority if not all
7 the housekeeping items wrapped up, I would now hand
8 it over to the applicant, if the applicant would
9 like to present his case, call any witnesses and
10 move forward with the presentation to the board.
11 I will remind the applicant that if you are going
12 to be testifying and anyone else that's going to be
13 testifying here tonight you will need to be sworn
14 in by the court reporter.
15 So, who is going to testify here
16 this evening?
17 MR. NOVAK: I will.
18 MR. ARMSTRONG: Just you, Mr.
19 Novak?
20 ---
21 ANTHONY NOVAK, the Applicant,
22 having been duly sworn, was examined and testified
23 as follows:
24 MR. NOVAK: As you stated,
25 I am here for a conditional use permit, outdoor
A. Novak - Direct 10
1 commercial recreation, on the property that you had
2 described here, on Pocono Manor property off of
3 Sullivan Trail. If I may, I'll go on with an oral
4 presentation and then I can answer any questions
5 that you guys may have.
6 The purpose of the outdoor
7 recreation is a family-oriented ATV trail riding
8 facility. The property consists of existing
9 trails, dirt roads and parking areas that are left
10 over from the property's previous usage as a
11 surface mining operation. The site contains
12 approximately 192 acres with various elevation
13 changes which are desirous of ATV riders. The
14 primary usage of this particular property would be
15 for parking and staging, which would be loading and
16 unloading of the ATVs off the trailers, as well as
17 a play area for riders to practice ATV riding
18 techniques.
19 I have Exhibit A -- and you all
20 have my presentation -- which is a birds eye photos
21 of the area showing what was commonly known as a
22 pit. Proposed structures of a non-permanent that
23 we have there consisting of a roll-off type shed
24 used for checking in the Lost Trails members. And
25 we also have three port-o-john sanitary facilities.
A. Novak - Direct 11
1 MR. ARMSTRONG: Mr. Novak, if I
2 may just stop you. For purposes of the
3 stenographer, why don't we -- you have Exhibit A.
4 Were you referring to these --
5 MR. NOVAK: That is correct.
6 MR. ARMSTRONG: -- these three
7 photographs?
8 MR. NOVAK: Three photographs.
9 MR. ARMSTRONG: Okay. Why don't
10 we refer to them as Exhibit A-1 -- Applicant's 1?
11 MR. NOVAK: I also have other
12 photographs in the packet which are showing the
13 shed and the port-o-john. That's correct. Those
14 are the exhibits.
15 MR. ARMSTRONG: And we'll mark
16 these as A-2.
17 MR. NOVAK: The property abuts
18 to an additional 1200 acres which is in Pocono
19 Township and used by Lost Trails for the members'
20 primarily trail riding. The nature of the
21 operation is to promote a secure, legal and
22 organized environment for families to experience
23 responsible ATV riding. The facility is open five
24 days, Thursday through Monday. Our hours of
25 operation are 9 a.m. to 5 p.m. And this is a
12
1 seasonal activity. We are open January through
2 November. We are closed the weekend right after
3 Thanksgiving, which begins the rifle season for
4 hunting and we close down.
5 Responsible ATV riding is
6 maintained and encouraged by the following. We do
7 require proper riding gear at all times, such as
8 helmets and goggles. We have signage and
9 directional arrows on all the trails. Barriers are
10 in place to keep riders within the property
11 boundary. And also the barriers are to keep them
12 out of sensitive environmental areas or neighboring
13 properties. Our security does patrol the trail
14 several times a day, offering assistance and
15 ensuring all riders keep a safe protocol while
16 visiting the facility.
17 ATV sound levels are kept within
18 a DCNR guideline, which is 99 decibels. That's
19 when it's measured 20 inches away from the machine.
20 All ATVs have a Lost Trails safety I.D. flag with a
21 6-foot whip pole attached for quick and easy member
22 identification. We provide an ATV safety course
23 taught by a DCNR certified safety instructor for
24 inexperienced ATV riders. And the Pennsylvania
25 state law requires children between the ages of 8
13
1 and 16 years of age to take this course. I do have
2 as an exhibit, the DCNR certification letter,
3 stating that I am one of the trainers and I'm
4 certified by the state.
5 The safety flags that I
6 mentioned, it kind of worked in our favor because
7 we figured that when we open this up that we would
8 pretty much be blamed for just about every ATV
9 problem that existed in the township. And what we
10 use the flags, other than our own identification --
11 but it is to help the neighbors when they see ATVs
12 riding up and down Sullivan Trail in the
13 development, if they do not have a flag on their
14 ATV, you can be assured it's not any of our members
15 that are riding because our members all have to
16 have the flag.
17 The Lost Trails ATV Adventures
18 is consistent with the Monroe County Comprehensive
19 Plan in the following ways. It proposes keeping a
20 large acreage dedicated to recreational activities.
21 It conserves the environmental quality, that is the
22 county's principal attraction for visitors and
23 residents alike. It contributes to property as one
24 form of open space preservation. It aides in
25 contributing towards a commercial agenda and the
14
1 tourist industry, which is the third largest level
2 of visitor spending and employment of any
3 Pennsylvania county after Philadelphia and the
4 Allegheny Mountains.
5 It assists in preserving an area
6 with high scenic value of superior views of the
7 Monroe County landscape. And I'm speaking
8 specifically along the back mountain road and
9 Summit Road corridor, which you have the views of
10 the entire Camelback and Delaware Water Gap from
11 back there. The proposed outdoor recreational use
12 of the property will overt residential sprawl. As
13 long as it's being used for residential -- I mean
14 for recreational purposes, such as ours, obviously
15 there will be no development going on while we are
16 occupying the property.
17 The proposal also coincides with
18 one of the primary principles of a reasonably
19 adopted strategic plan prepared by the Pocono
20 Mountain Vacation Bureau, which outlines the need
21 to focus on providing a quality experience at all
22 Pocono Mountain attractions and properties. Its
23 support to the tourism industry in its effort to
24 upgrade facilities and respond to changing trends
25 will be an important component of the county
15
1 economic development effort. A major changing
2 trend is acknowledging that ATV riding is a family
3 recreational activity enjoyed by lots of people.
4 In the state of Pennsylvania there are over 300,000
5 registered ATVs second to only Texas with
6 registered ATVs. There are probably as many
7 unregistered ATV vehicles in the state as well with
8 very little places for them to ride.
9 Environmentally, the Lost Trails
10 is working with DEP and Monroe County Conservation
11 District to identify sensitive areas and develop an
12 E and S plan to maintain an environmentally
13 friendly facility. We have recently received an
14 approval of our E and S plan, which I believe the
15 township already has. I'd like to submit that.
16 In my original packet I had given you the
17 application. Now you have the approval.
18 MR. ARMSTRONG: Shall we
19 identify this as A-3?
20 MR. NOVAK: You may. We've
21 gained a lot of community support. Located
22 immediately adjacent to the property along the
23 southern route of Sullivan Trail is a development
24 commonly known as Blueberry Estates. And along
25 its northern route separated by Interstate 380,
16
1 there is portions of Emerald Lakes Development.
2 These developments and its property owners are
3 identified as the closest residential areas to the
4 proposed outdoor recreational area. We have
5 statements signed by the local residents showing
6 their support for this proposal, and I hereby
7 submit that. That should be in your packet.
8 I have it as Exhibit E.
9 MR. ARMSTRONG: This is again
10 the letter from?
11 MR. NOVAK: From local
12 residents. In my packet I have it as Exhibit E,
13 local community support, residential statements.
14 MR. ARMSTRONG: We'll mark that
15 as A-4.
16 MR. NOVAK: If I may, I'll read
17 the statement that was signed. It was addressed to
18 whom it may concern. "As a property owner of
19 Tobyhanna Township, I believe having a designated
20 area for ATV riding will cut back on the illegal
21 riding on our roads, on our private properties and
22 within our developments. We feel the Lost Trails
23 ATV Adventures is benefiting our township and
24 surrounding area because they are providing a safe
25 and organized place for families to enjoy
17
1 recreational ATV riding without interference with
2 the rest of our community." And it's signed by
3 approximately 34 residents which are located
4 directly across the street from the property that
5 we are requesting the conditional use permit.
6 We also have local business
7 support located within Tobyhanna Township and the
8 Pocono Mountain surrounding area businesses which
9 have received a noticeable increase to their
10 establishments as a direct result from the Lost
11 Trails ATV Adventures. The types of businesses
12 range from the small mom-and-pop deli, such as
13 Joe's Quik Mart, to the large corporations as the
14 Days Inn hotel chain and Great Wolf Lodge.
15 Statements signed by the local businesses declaring
16 an increase in their business and stating their
17 support for this proposal is hereby submitted. In
18 my packet I have it as Exhibit F. Here's the
19 statement.
20 MR. ARMSTRONG: We'll mark that
21 as A-5.
22 MR. NOVAK: Okay. I'll go ahead
23 and read the statement that was signed. "To whom
24 it may concern. As a business operating in the
25 Pocono Mountain area, we have had a noticeable
18
1 increase in the patronage and/or in referrals to
2 our activities attributable to the Lost Trails ATV
3 Park Adventures. We feel the Lost Trails is a
4 benefit to our area and provides a needed activity
5 for its residents, vacationers and a promotion to
6 the Pocono Mountain's tourism business." And
7 that's also signed by various local businesses by
8 about 30 to 35 names.
9 If I may, at this point I want
10 to introduce another exhibit. There was an email
11 that I had received from Laura Colinet, if I
12 pronounce the name correct, C-o-l-i-n-e-t. She is
13 the supervisor at the Keystone Welcome Center at
14 Endless Mountain. The email goes, "Hi. I
15 supervise one of the Pennsylvania State welcome
16 centers. I was recently at one of the other
17 centers and they had your brochures. I was
18 wondering if we could also get us a supply. We are
19 constantly asked about ATV trails and you're in a
20 great location for the traffic that we get. If you
21 could send us 4 to 500 brochures, we would be
22 grateful. If you have any questions, please feel
23 free to call me. Thank you, Laura." I'll submit
24 this.
25 MR. ARMSTRONG: We'll mark this
19
1 as A-6.
2 MR. NOVAK: We've also -- I
3 guess I would call it maybe like a reverse
4 community, but we've done our share with
5 contributing back to the community. We have run
6 several charity events at the Lost Trails. One was
7 for a little girl named Samantha, who was stricken
8 with cancer, who lives locally over in Lehighton.
9 We were able to raise over $7,000 at the park for
10 her cause, to help her pay for her medical bills.
11 We also had another charity
12 event for a fallen police officer from
13 Philadelphia, who was killed in the line of duty
14 and left a wife and two small children. The
15 officers got together, asked us if we would hold a
16 charity event, and we agreed to that. And we also
17 raised over 5 or $6,000 for that family as well.
18 And recently we had another
19 event for the Pocono Summit Volunteer Fire Company,
20 more local for us, where we raised money, gave some
21 of the proceeds that came in for their volunteer
22 fire department, for whatever cause they needed the
23 money for. And we do do special events two or
24 three times a year if people contact us. We hold a
25 special for them. Also, we have plans to do it for
20
1 the local first aid squad and stuff because we want
2 to help the people who help us when we need them.
3 So, I just wanted to mention that as well. That is
4 it for my oral presentation, and I can entertain
5 any questions that the board may have.
6 There is a map up on the screen
7 here of the property depicting the pit or what we
8 want the conditional use for. You'll see -- see
9 these black lines right here are residual trails
10 for dirt roads or access roads that go into this
11 hole what used to be the quarry. It's not too
12 clear, but that spot right there, the quarry was 28
13 acres. It has been reduced to 5 acres. We stay
14 out of this entire area. We are not allowed to
15 ride in there. Okay? This section over here that
16 looks like honeycombs is a moth sanctuary with
17 endangered moths. It's about 52 acres. We do not
18 ride in there as well.
19 These are the areas or trails
20 that you see up through here. That's the rod and
21 gun club, which is now Pocono Sports. That's their
22 shooting range. I guess they are allowed to shoot
23 in there, but we are not allowed to do anything
24 else in there. So, that's part of their routes
25 that they use. This is 380 right here. This is
21
1 Sullivan Trail going down through here. This is
2 Blueberry Estates where the people had signed those
3 statements, which is directly across the street
4 from us. And this corridor here is the power line.
5 And then this is the township boundary between
6 Pocono Township and Tobyhanna Township.
7 MR. ARMSTRONG: Mr. Novak, for
8 purposes of clarity, I'm looking through your
9 packet, it looks like there are some additional
10 documents, the deed, the license agreements.
11 MR. NOVAK: That was all
12 required as the application.
13 MR. ARMSTRONG: So for purposes
14 of probably simplicity, why don't we just mark his
15 submission packet as A-1 and leave it at that?
16 We'll put them all back in the order that he has
17 them in his submittal packet and we'll just mark
18 the whole packet as A-1.
19 (A Packet was marked for
20 identification as Applicant's Exhibit No. 1.)
21 MR. NOVAK: We had submitted for
22 an HOP. I have not heard back yet from PennDOT.
23 I understand they are in the process of some kind
24 of restructuring or reorganization. It was
25 forwarded down to the Allentown branch, and I'm
22
1 waiting to hear back from them on that.
2 MR. ARMSTRONG: So, you don't
3 have PennDOT approval yet for the entrance?
4 MR. NOVAK: Not yet.
5 There is a wetlands crossing.
6 If I may, right here located on the map, this
7 darkened area is a wetland. We had submitted our E
8 and S plan, which included a structure that needed
9 to be built for that crossing. The approval of the
10 E and S plan comes first. Johnny Motts from Soil
11 Conservation has since forwarded that to DEP, and
12 we should be receiving our permit to go ahead an
13 implement the final stages of that wetlands
14 crossing.
15 MR. ARMSTRONG: Do any of the
16 members of the board have any questions of the
17 witness/applicant at this time?
18 MR. KEENER: Yes, I have a few.
19 You had talked about the HOP application. And I
20 see you submitted a minimum-use driveway
21 application. And under the title of that is a
22 driveway which is expected to be used by not more
23 than 25 vehicles per day. And I'm looking at the
24 aerial and I see probably 30 that are parked there.
25 MR. NOVAK: They had asked me to
23
1 resubmit and give them more information. So what
2 we submitted with our new application -- they also
3 said submit that, the same application for a
4 minimal use. We submitted our roster, which we
5 have to send to our insurance company that does a
6 head count of everybody that comes in there. From
7 that they were going to use a formula if everybody
8 shows up with four, five or even six ATVs on a
9 trailer. So, the head count does not necessarily
10 indicate vehicle count. They were going to use
11 that, figure out -- there is different degrees of a
12 low-volume HOP. And based on that information,
13 they were to get back and advise me probably to
14 switch it to low volume, and how much work for what
15 needs to be done to do that. But my understanding
16 is there is different types of low volume depending
17 on your actual count.
18 MR. KEENER: Right. You had
19 mentioned about the emergency services support.
20 Do you have a report or any indication on the
21 number of accidents or emergency calls that you've
22 had since you've been in operation?
23 MR. NOVAK: Been in operation?
24 No, I do not. Approximately six.
25 MS. PICKARD: What time frame?
24
1 MR. NOVAK: Since I've been
2 operating, in 2007.
3 MR. KEENER: Thirdly and lastly
4 for now, you say you received the plan approval for
5 the E and S permit. Have you implemented that plan
6 that was approved, and has anybody been out to
7 inspect it and --
8 MR. NOVAK: The E and S plan as
9 a whole, we've implemented on the direction of
10 Johnny Motts at Soil Conservation over a year ago,
11 interim portions of the plan for sediment and
12 erosion, and he recommended that we do that.
13 It was actually the entire submission. What we did
14 is actually what we were planning on doing for the
15 permit. We instituted the crossing already.
16 We have seven basins installed. We have water bars
17 installed while we are waiting for their actual
18 permit approval. So, yes, they have been
19 implemented already for the past year and a half
20 MRS. LAMBERTON: I have a
21 question. Do you have a daily limit of maximum
22 ATVs that are allowed at one time?
23 MR. NOVAK: We do not have an
24 actual number. And I don't think we've ever even
25 come close to -- that would be based on -- the
25
1 limit would be based on the parking. Once you
2 can't park anybody anymore, you're pretty much --
3 you're done. You can't have anymore. And we have
4 not never approached that situation since we've
5 been open.
6 MR. KEENER: What is the current
7 number of members?
8 MR. NOVAK: Well, we have daily
9 members, the ones who come and just pay $35 to ride
10 for the day. And then there is actual memberships
11 where people pay like a family membership and don't
12 need to pay. I don't have that number. And I'm
13 not sure what number I would give you. You mean
14 since we've opened?
15 MR. KEENER: A total head count
16 of people who might be riding ATVs.
17 MR. NOVAK: On any given day or
18 since I have been open?
19 MR. KEENER: If you have
20 memberships, yes. As of today, how many members do
21 you have, that you have a membership with?
22 MR. NOVAK: Actual memberships,
23 not the daily riders?
24 MR. KEENER: Right, membership.
25 MR. NOVAK: 250.
26
1 MR. KEENER: Sorry. Go ahead.
2 MRS. LAMBERTON: I'm good.
3 MR. ARMSTRONG: For purposes of,
4 first, some more housekeeping, you marked your
5 submittal packet as A-1. And we still have the one
6 that is correspondence dated October 20, 2009 from
7 the Monroe County Conservation District regarding
8 the E and S control plan. That will be A-2.
9 And the email you received from Laura Colinet will
10 be marked as A-3.
11 (Correspondence Dated October
12 20, 2009 was marked for identification as
13 Applicant's Exhibit No. 2.)
14 (An Email was marked for
15 identification as Applicant's Exhibit No. 3.)
16 MR. ARMSTRONG: And for purposes
17 of the board of supervisors, what has been marked
18 as B-9 this evening, we'll take notice as
19 correspondence to the board subsequent to the
20 planning commission's meeting review of this plan.
21 The applicant was at that meeting.
22 MR. NOVAK: The planning
23 commission?
24 MR. ARMSTRONG: Correct.
25 MR. NOVAK: Correct.
27
1 MR. ARMSTRONG: And the planning
2 commission made the following recommendations.
3 The planning commission recommended the supervisors
4 approve the proposed application so long as the
5 applicant installs an acceptable berm with
6 appropriate landscaped screening along the
7 property's boundary with 380, Route 380. The
8 recommendation was also subject to the applicant
9 installing sufficient gravel in the parking lot and
10 the driveway to help decrease the amount of dust
11 created by the proposed use.
12 The recommendation was also
13 conditional in the applicant complying with all
14 township ordinances; and further subject to the
15 applicant complying with all other laws and
16 regulations and receiving all required outside
17 agency approvals, including but not limited to,
18 PennDOT, Pennsylvania DEP and those required by the
19 county. Those were the recommendations by the
20 planning commission that are outlined in Exhibit
21 B-9.
22 MR. NOVAK: Part of our
23 application also was we have a 12 by 28 shed, that
24 shed that's pictured there, which is larger than
25 what I understand is allowed. And during our
28
1 preliminary meeting when I met with the board,
2 it was asked if that would be a -- is the right
3 terminology a variance?
4 MR. ARMSTRONG: What are you
5 referring to?
6 MR. NOVAK: The shed that we
7 have on the property, I think it needs to be,
8 according to the zoning laws, 200 square feet, and
9 the zoning officer can give you the permit. If
10 it's bigger than 200 square feet, which ours is,
11 okay, not by a lot but a little bit, we were asking
12 for, I guess the terminology would be, a variance.
13 MR. ARMSTRONG: Oh, you're
14 looking for --
15 MR. NOVAK: A waiver.
16 MR. ARMSTRONG: A waiver.
17 MR. NOVAK: A waiver, yeah.
18 MR. ARMSTRONG: A waiver of land
19 development.
20 MR. NOVAK: That was already
21 done at the preliminary. I'm only submitting a
22 site development plan.
23 MR. KEENER: That's what it is.
24 It goes to that definition of the 200 square foot
25 and the zoning requires land development.
29
1 MR. NOVAK: But in the
2 preliminary -- is that the right term, preliminary
3 meeting that we had?
4 MR. ARMSTRONG: Presubmission.
5 MR. NOVAK: -- presubmission,
6 we covered a couple of -- it's in the minutes.
7 We covered a couple of things. I was asked about
8 waivers. And if I remember correctly, the board so
9 desired it and said they would waive that. It's
10 not a permanent structure. It's one of those
11 roll-off sheds that can be moved or taken out at
12 any time.
13 MS. KEENER: Would you object to
14 having, let's say, a 100-foot buffer up Sullivan
15 Trail, around 380 to contain the vehicles away from
16 that set area?
17 MR. NOVAK: A buffer from
18 Sullivan Trail?
19 MS. KEENER: Like the perimeter
20 of where we are in Tobyhanna Township, I'd like to
21 see some sort of buffer area that keeps the ATV
22 traffic away from Sullivan Trail and 380 a little
23 bit.
24 MR. NOVAK: The closest portion
25 to Sullivan Trail that exists at this point is
30
1 right here. That's the entrance going in. And
2 right there, there is like a -- there is an
3 existing trail that sits there. Maybe it's about
4 60 or 70 feet. The rest of this area here is well
5 over the 100-foot buffer you're asking for. It's
6 probably 3 or 400 feet already. It's all woods.
7 And as a matter of fact, there is only one trail
8 right there that goes down. And this green is a
9 trail and that is it. Everything else right here
10 from Sullivan Trail to the power line is 400 feet
11 or more. Okay?
12 MR. ARMSTRONG: Mr. Novak, do
13 you have a hard version of that. What I'm going to
14 do is, you're referring to this on record, it needs
15 to be marked. I don't have it in my packet, so
16 we're going to mark this as A-4.
17 (A Map was marked for
18 identification as Applicant's Exhibit No. 4.)
19 MR. KEENER: Mr. Novak, can you
20 show me on that drawing where the cable is on
21 Sullivan Trail that has the flagging on it?
22 MR. NOVAK: The cable?
23 MR. KEENER: There is a cable
24 that's right adjacent to Sullivan Trail. I just
25 went down there today.
31
1 MR. NOVAK: That is not one of
2 my trails. I blocked it off to prevent anybody
3 from coming on. And it's not even depicted on
4 here, but it is approximately right here. And
5 that's from, I'm going to guess, illegal riders who
6 have been riding there for years. And they had to
7 do a lot of work, I'm going to tell you that,
8 because it's very thick brush. And it goes
9 straight in -- it goes straight to the power line
10 right there, right at that corner.
11 So we purposely had put that up
12 to try to acknowledge that it's there, but please
13 do not come. We have the cable and an orange
14 swimmy that we put on it. We don't want anybody
15 getting clothes-lined or anything like that, but we
16 don't use it.
17 MS. PICKARD: What have you been
18 doing for dust control, especially on that area by
19 380?
20 MR. NOVAK: We've only had -- as
21 far as I know, we only had one incidence of dust.
22 And Phyllis had called me --
23 MS. PICKARD: It's not one
24 incident. I purposely witnessed many.
25 MR. NOVAK: I got a phone call
32
1 about it and stuff. Well, now we will put some
2 gravel up there to keep it all down.
3 MS. PICKARD: How far is the
4 parking to 380 there?
5 MR. NOVAK: We only use this
6 portion. There is a portion up top here that maybe
7 we can -- I think you can see it in one of the --
8 where we put maybe about 15 vehicles. We usually
9 try to only put them up there if they are a truck
10 that has no trailer or a truck with a small
11 trailer. And we keep the main parking for -- some
12 of these people come with big, big trailers down
13 below. So it's kind of like an overfill or
14 overflow parking area is what we use that for.
15 MS. PICKARD: But I see riders
16 in that area where they're loading and unloading.
17 MR. NOVAK: Right. They have to
18 load and unload to go there.
19 MR. KEENER: And I have seen
20 riders between the vehicles and the edge of the
21 interstate, too, in the past.
22 MR. NOVAK: In the past. That
23 was also the same time that Phyllis called me about
24 the dust and stuff. There is a trail there that we
25 have cordoned off and we don't let the people ride
33
1 there. There is also a big -- there used to be a
2 mound of dirt, but now we planted grass and
3 everything. It's more grassy on there. So we do
4 keep them off. We have all flags up. I think you
5 might be able to see that in the picture.
6 To help reduce dust, we can
7 institute a -- for lack of a better term, I'll call
8 it a water truck. It doesn't have to be a truck.
9 It's a PVC tub holding water. When it gets very,
10 very dry, you can drive that around and let the
11 water seep out. It eliminates the dust, creates it
12 to be more moist and you don't have any dust.
13 I would not be opposed to having one of those in
14 our inventory.
15 MR. ARMSTRONG: You said that in
16 Tobyhanna Township it's 192 acres?
17 MR. NOVAK: Approximately, yes.
18 MR. ARMSTRONG: How many acres
19 are in the neighboring township?
20 MR. NOVAK: Approximately 1200.
21 MR. ARMSTRONG: Is it the same
22 operation in both townships?
23 MR. NOVAK: Yes.
24 MR. ARMSTRONG: Same type of
25 riding?
34
1 MR. NOVAK: Oh, okay. In the
2 1200-acres side is where all the trails are located
3 at. That's where people go and ride on the trails.
4 That's where the signage is.
5 MR. ARMSTRONG: And that's
6 outside of Tobyhanna?
7 MR. NOVAK: That's outside of
8 Tobyhanna, correct. What this area is used for --
9 in the ATV community it's commonly known as a
10 practice area or a play area. There are no
11 designated trails. It's not a trail system.
12 It consists of -- and it used to be the mining pit.
13 And that's why you will find a lot of people
14 illegally riding the coal mines and in any kind of
15 quarry situation. The terrain itself is good for
16 them for hills, going up and down. There is a
17 couple of ponds in there, not wetlands sensitive.
18 They are just collection basins to collect all the
19 water runoff from the hills and stuff.
20 A lot of the little children
21 stay around in that area as opposed to going into
22 the trails. Their machines are very small.
23 They don't have the clearance and they stay around
24 that area. There is a lot more flat areas as well
25 as the hills in there. So, it is a play area.
35
1 There are no designated quote/unquote trails that
2 we tell them, hey, you got to go this way, you got
3 to go that way. It's just a play area for them to
4 practice their techniques, their jumping, their
5 riding skills, going up and down hills and stuff
6 like that. That's why you will have a lot of
7 people kind of riding in different quarries and
8 stuff. It's very inviting for them to do that.
9 MR. ARMSTRONG: This is the area
10 in Tobyhanna?
11 MR. NOVAK: This is the area in
12 Tobyhanna, correct. The only organized trail
13 system is the lead way, which is the power line,
14 that takes them into the rest of the trails. There
15 is two right here, but now we can cross over into
16 Pocono Township and these trails are right here and
17 they continue out.
18 MR. ARMSTRONG: So other than
19 the section by Sullivan Trail Road that's 60, 70
20 feet off from the road, is that the closest section
21 to any of the trails to any neighboring property
22 line, the 60 to 70 feet, or are there sections
23 where there is a trail or a riding trail?
24 MR. NOVAK: The only other trail
25 other than the power line is a trail called No
36
1 Name, which is this green right here, and that's
2 about 3 or 400 feet off Sullivan Trail. And this
3 is all woods, by the way, all this.
4 This property right here is also
5 owned by Pocono Manor, which is directly across
6 from the entrance and from where you were saying.
7 That section, there is no houses. There is
8 nothing. This property here, I can't tell you how
9 big it is. It might be about 5 acres. It's owned
10 by Pocono Manor and it's completely empty.
11 Then you got 380. And across from 380, all this
12 land is owned by Pocono Manor as well.
13 On my map, you will see this is
14 where they used to have -- I guess a concrete batch
15 plant was sitting there off of 380. They have
16 since taken that down about a year ago, a year and
17 a half ago, if that answers your question.
18 MR. ARMSTRONG: So the closest
19 any trail or any riding area in Tobyhanna Township
20 to the property boundary is 60 to 70 feet?
21 MR. NOVAK: Correct. Is there
22 any specific reason for you to ask that?
23 MR. ARMSTRONG: Well, it sounded
24 like there may be an idea with respect to
25 conditions for a buffer, so to speak, to
37
1 neighboring properties.
2 MR. KEENER: And public
3 rights-of-way, road dust issues.
4 MR. ARMSTRONG: Property
5 boundaries. I just want to see -- so there is
6 nowhere closer than the 60 or 70 foot area?
7 MR. NOVAK: No. Not to the best
8 of my knowledge, no.
9 MR. ARMSTRONG: Okay. Other
10 than the illegal trail that you mentioned
11 earlier. It's not illegal, but a trail that you
12 don't --
13 MR. NOVAK: Somebody -- yeah.
14 We don't use it.
15 MR. ARMSTRONG: How did you
16 block it off again? How did you block off that
17 trail?
18 MR. NOVAK: We just put a cable
19 across it and hung a -- they are called swimmies
20 that the children use in the pool. We sliced it,
21 wrapped it around the cable so you can see it.
22 MRS. LAMBERTON: How do you
23 enforce it if other people are riding on your
24 trails while you're open?
25 MR. NOVAK: How do we enforce
38
1 it? We have security that patrols.
2 MRS. LAMBERTON: You just have
3 them leave?
4 MR. NOVAK: Yes. I have
5 personally escorted eight people off the property.
6 We do not chase them. It's too dangerous. We'll
7 follow as far as we can. In the beginning, when we
8 first opened up, we had that a lot. But since they
9 realized that we do -- I think they thought we
10 didn't patrol. We actually do patrol. Now that
11 there is a presence there, we have very little
12 problems with people, or renegades as we call them,
13 coming on during business hours. I can't tell you
14 what happens at night because I'm not there.
15 MR. ARMSTRONG: And you only
16 operate 9 to 5?
17 MR. NOVAK: Correct. We may be
18 there late as 6:00. It's the time it takes people
19 to load up, you know. Like any establishment to
20 get them out, you know, last call is at 5:00.
21 MR. ARMSTRONG: When I say 9 to
22 5, I guess 9 until depending on the time of the
23 year, you know, nighttime, dark time, right?
24 MR. NOVAK: Correct.
25 MR. ARMSTRONG: So this time of
39
1 year people probably aren't riding on the trails at
2 5?
3 MR. NOVAK: Right. You're
4 right. Yes, they are usually off and they are out
5 of the park by 4:30. 4:30, 4:00 it gets dark.
6 MR. ARMSTRONG: Any overnight
7 camping?
8 MR. NOVAK: It's not allowed,
9 no.
10 MR. ARMSTRONG: Any gas stored
11 at the property?
12 MR. NOVAK: We have a tank that
13 we have for our own personal use. We use a
14 generator to -- we plug in because we have lights
15 in the sheds.
16 MR. ARMSTRONG: So it's just
17 used for your generator?
18 MR. NOVAK: Yes.
19 MR. ARMSTRONG: Okay.
20 MS. PICKARD: Where do the
21 riders get gas? They bring gas cans with them?
22 MR. NOVAK: They would bring
23 their own gas cans. They don't travel around the
24 property with the gas cans.
25 MS. PICKARD: I understand.
40
1 They fill up. How far can they go on --
2 MR. NOVAK: Only on one tank of
3 gas.
4 MS. PICKARD: How many gallons
5 does an average ATV go?
6 MR. NOVAK: Anywhere from 2 and
7 a half to 5 gallons. The small machines about 2
8 and a half gallons. A utility quad can hold as
9 much as 5, and you can ride all day.
10 MS. PICKARD: They can ride all
11 day?
12 MR. NOVAK: All day, yeah.
13 MR. ARMSTRONG: Do you ever hold
14 like competitions.
15 MR. NOVAK: No.
16 MR. ARMSTRONG: Competitive
17 competitions?
18 MR. NOVAK: No.
19 MR. ARMSTRONG: On any given day
20 -- I mean, what is the average and then what's the
21 most number of riders you've had on during the day?
22 MR. NOVAK: On average, we'd
23 have 40 to 50 as an average. Most riders we've
24 had, 250 over the course of the day. Does that
25 answer your question? Is that what you were
41
1 asking? Like on a holiday, you've got a Memorial
2 weekend, or like those events that we have, the
3 charity events, I mean, people come because they
4 want to contribute.
5 MR. ARMSTRONG: Other than the
6 trailer and the port-o-potties, there is no other
7 structures on the property?
8 MR. NOVAK: No.
9 MR. ARMSTRONG: Do you know the
10 size of the trailer? You said it's a little over
11 200 square feet. Do you know the actual dimensions
12 of that trailer?
13 MR. NOVAK: I believe it's 12 --
14 MR. ARMSTRONG: If it's in the
15 packet, I should have it.
16 MR. NOVAK: I think I have it on
17 the map. I believe it's 12 by 20.
18 MR. ARMSTRONG: There is three
19 port-o-potties?
20 MR. NOVAK: Correct.
21 MR. ARMSTRONG: And the property
22 is currently owned by Pocono Manor?
23 MR. NOVAK: Pocono Manor
24 Investors.
25 MR. ARMSTRONG: You currently
42
1 lease it or you have a license?
2 MR. NOVAK: We have a license
3 agreement with them, correct.
4 MR. ARMSTRONG: Do you have any
5 intentions to expand the current operation at this
6 point?
7 MR. NOVAK: No.
8 MR. ARMSTRONG: You indicated --
9 are you going to be putting gravel down at the
10 parking.
11 MR. NOVAK: That's what the
12 planning commission had recommended.
13 MR. ARMSTRONG: Okay.
14 MR. NOVAK: The entry is already
15 macadam from the entrance all the way up to the --
16 almost to the mining pit. I guess that's been
17 there since we were there.
18 MR. KEENER: What is the term of
19 the license agreement? When does it expire?
20 MR. NOVAK: I believe it's
21 almost 15 years.
22 MR. KEENER: Almost or -- I
23 didn't see anything in here.
24 MR. NOVAK: I only supplied you
25 with the portions of the agreement to prove that I
43
1 have permission from them. There is an agreement
2 as stated in the prepresentation. When I was asked
3 to present that, it was said that you don't need
4 any of the business details.
5 MR. ARMSTRONG: So this isn't
6 the complete license agreement?
7 MR. NOVAK: No. It was just the
8 proof that I have the authority to be here. That's
9 what you asked of me to present, the license
10 agreements that shows that between me and Pocono
11 Manor and signed by the two parties.
12 MR. ARMSTRONG: But you're
13 representing to this board that the current
14 agreement is for 15 years, the one that's dated
15 2007?
16 MR. NOVAK: Correct.
17 MR. ARMSTRONG: Will you provide
18 that portion of the agreement?
19 MR. NOVAK: Yes.
20 MR. ARMSTRONG: Actually, we
21 should have it all, the agreement. I'm not sure
22 what happened.
23 MR. KERRICK: You asked that
24 question about the financials, and we didn't really
25 care about the financial.
44
1 MS. PICKARD: Can that be
2 redacted out?
3 MR. KERRICK: We just wanted to
4 see the terms.
5 MR. ARMSTRONG: I wasn't at the
6 presubmission, but I'm assuming with respect to the
7 financial you can just redact.
8 MR. NOVAK: Can what?
9 MR. ARMSTRONG: Just redact,
10 white out right over. You know what I mean?
11 MR. NOVAK: Okay. I don't have
12 a problem with that.
13 MR. ARMSTRONG: I'm looking at
14 the zoning ordinance for parking. For a
15 recreational area, indoor/outdoor recreational use,
16 one for each four persons at peak attendance.
17 You said peak attendance. Well, you said over the
18 course of a nine-hour day?
19 MR. NOVAK: Well, I liken our
20 facility to like Dixon Miller, and I don't know --
21 we don't have lines down. We just have square
22 footage area.
23 MR. ARMSTRONG: What's the
24 capacity? Do you know approximately, not including
25 that overflow?
45
1 MR. NOVAK: Not including the
2 overflow?
3 MS. LAMBERTON: You have
4 trailers, a lot of them.
5 MR. NOVAK: Maybe 100 at most.
6 MR. ARMSTRONG: Including the
7 trailers?
8 MR. NOVAK: Yes.
9 MR. ARMSTRONG: Without
10 including the overflow area.
11 MR. NOVAK: Correct, because
12 they vary in size. I mean, some people come with a
13 pickup truck that have two ATVs in the back of a
14 pickup truck and no trailer. They take up a lot
15 less space. And then you have people that come
16 with bigger ones. So, we are roughing that for
17 you.
18 MR. ARMSTRONG: Any signage?
19 There is no signs on the property?
20 MR. NOVAK: People steal them.
21 So what we do is, at the open of business we have a
22 banner out there, like an identification banner
23 that says Lost Trails ATV Park with an arrow, and
24 at the end or close of business we take it down.
25 MR. ARMSTRONG: So just a
46
1 temporary sign during the day?
2 MR. NOVAK: Yes.
3 MR. ARMSTRONG: You've been in
4 contact with the township sewage enforcement
5 officer about the port-o-potties?
6 MR. NOVAK: No, I haven't.
7 MR. ARMSTRONG: Okay.
8 MS. PICKARD: Do you have
9 permits for those port-o-potties?
10 MR. NOVAK: I did not know I
11 needed one, so the answer is no. You need permits
12 for port-o-johns?
13 MS. PICKARD: Yes.
14 MR. NOVAK: I didn't know that.
15 MS. PICKARD: I find that hard
16 to believe that Phyllis didn't --
17 MR. NOVAK: Well, does the
18 township require port-o-johns onsite when you build
19 homes? Some townships do.
20 MS. PICKARD: We thought that we
21 needed them from the building inspector on
22 residential, but it turns out we need them only on
23 commercial.
24 MR. NOVAK: Only on commercial
25 you need them? Okay.
47
1 MS. PICKARD: But if they have
2 them there, some choose to have them there, they
3 would need one.
4 MR. NOVAK: I was not aware of
5 that.
6 MR. ARMSTRONG: Is there any
7 lighting? There is no lighting?
8 MR. NOVAK: No. There is no
9 after-dark activity.
10 MR. ARMSTRONG: Is there any
11 security lighting, like motion detection lighting?
12 MR. NOVAK: No.
13 MR. ARMSTRONG: There is no
14 security, no motion sensors?
15 MR. NOVAK: We do have plans to
16 put motion sensors up because we've been robbed.
17 Nobody is immune. There's a gate at the entrance
18 that gets locked every night.
19 MR. ARMSTRONG: With respect to
20 the conditions that the planning commission
21 recommended, do you have any issues with any of
22 those recommendations?
23 MR. NOVAK: No, we do not.
24 MR. KEENER: In the application
25 you have the cover letter to PennDOT for the HOP.
48
1 You referenced three documents that are not
2 included in our packet. I was wondering if we
3 could get copies of those, copies of the membership
4 sign-in logs for the month of August, a calender
5 for August showing the individual member attendance
6 by date, and a calender for August showing the
7 average vehicle count by date. You need to give us
8 those documents to support that letter.
9 MR. ARMSTRONG: Do you have any
10 appropriate approvals that you need for permits
11 from the neighboring municipality, from the
12 operation in the neighboring township?
13 MR. NOVAK: It's a permitted use
14 by right.
15 MR. ARMSTRONG: Okay. And which
16 township is that?
17 MR. NOVAK: Pocono Township.
18 MR. ARMSTRONG: Pocono Township.
19 Do you have those documents from PennDOT or the
20 complete license agreement?
21 MR. NOVAK: No.
22 MR. ARMSTRONG: You don't?
23 MR. NOVAK: I can bring them in
24 and drop them off tomorrow.
25 MR. ARMSTRONG: Are there any
49
1 other questions from the board at this time?
2 MR. KEENER: I don't have any.
3 MRS. LAMBERTON: I actually
4 would like to see that parking moved from 380. I
5 think that would deter a lot visual activity and
6 also ATV activity by the one side of the highway.
7 MR. ARMSTRONG: You mean by the
8 parking along 380, are you --
9 MR. KEENER: Page 1 of the
10 aerial.
11 MR. ARMSTRONG: This one?
12 MR. KEENER: That's correct.
13 MR. NOVAK: That's approximately
14 a 50-foot up there by 380. There is a sign.
15 MR. KEENER: I can tell you
16 you're not 50 feet from the right-of-way.
17 MR. NOVAK: No, I meant length,
18 50-feet along the 380. The planning commission,
19 that's where they wanted me to put a berm up there
20 and shrubs.
21 MR. KEENER: I'd say it's
22 probably about 100 feet because you have 10
23 vehicles lined up. And a typical parking space is
24 10 feet wide. You've got one, two, three, four,
25 five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten vehicles lined
50
1 up according to this aerial.
2 MR. NOVAK: I stand corrected.
3 MR. KEENER: Maybe nine.
4 MR. ARMSTRONG: At this point is
5 there any other comments or questions from the
6 public at this time? Seeing none --
7 MR. KEENER: In addition to
8 that, I'd like to see correspondence from PennDOT
9 regarding the HOP. I don't know if there have been
10 any communications with them at this point or not
11 with the township staff.
12 MR. ARMSTRONG: Okay. So it
13 appears there is three outstanding exhibits yet to
14 be provided by the applicant. One is the entire
15 license agreement with Pocono Manor absent
16 redactions with respect to pricing, finances,
17 whatever; two, the attachments to the PennDOT
18 letter requested by Supervisor Keener, as well as
19 any other correspondence from PennDOT with respect
20 to the HOP. Is that something that the applicant
21 wishes to provide for the board's consideration?
22 MR. NOVAK: Yes, I can give you
23 all that except I'm not clear on what you're asking
24 for, sir. What kind of correspondence would you
25 like me to --
51
1 MR. KEENER: I'd like to see
2 correspondence from PennDOT to say that driveway is
3 a minimum use driveway or that you have the
4 appropriate upgrade to a low-volume driveway.
5 MR. NOVAK: Right. I'm waiting
6 for that to come from them, correct?
7 MR. KEENER: Right.
8 MR. NOVAK: Okay. So we would
9 make that stipulation? Am I using the right term?
10 MR. ARMSTRONG: Well, seeing how
11 there is a handful of documents yet to be submitted
12 before the board, we're probably not going to close
13 the record this evening. Because if you close the
14 record, you can't submit the documents.
15 MR. NOVAK: Oh.
16 MR. ARMSTRONG: So what we'll do
17 is --
18 MR. KEENER: We can continue the
19 hearing.
20 MR. ARMSTRONG: -- we can
21 continue the hearing if you want. When are you
22 meeting next?
23 MR. KEENER: We can do it at the
24 work session in December.
25 MR. ARMSTRONG: You can do it
52
1 then if you like.
2 MR. KEENER: December 7th.
3 MR. ARMSTRONG: Is there
4 anything else at this point that the applicant
5 wishes to provide for testimony or additional
6 exhibits that you have for the board this evening?
7 MR. NOVAK: Not at this time but
8 I have two -- two out of the three I have control
9 of. The third one I don't have control of, which
10 is the HOP comments or approval until it's given to
11 me. I stopped at their office last week.
12 MR. ARMSTRONG: We can make it a
13 condition. If we can't get it by the work session,
14 whatever correspondence with PennDOT, we can make
15 it -- at that point we can probably make that a
16 condition of any decision of this board.
17 Obviously, it's a condition that you're going to
18 comply with DEP or PennDOT.
19 MR. NOVAK: PennDOT, right.
20 MR. ARMSTRONG: And therefore
21 that will be tied into that as well. So at this
22 point is everyone in agreement that this hearing
23 should be continued until December 7th, the work
24 session at 3:30? And we are continuing it for
25 purposes of accepting document exhibits. There is
53
1 no more testimony unless the board wishes to hear
2 more testimony at that time. But at this point, I
3 don't see the need for it unless the board has a
4 different take on it once we get those documents.
5 So at this point we are going to continue the
6 hearing until December 7th at 3:30 p.m., right here
7 at the township office.
8 MR. NOVAK: I hand in the
9 exhibits and then you'll make your decision? Is
10 that how it works?
11 (Discussion off the record.)
12 MR. ARMSTRONG: There is a
13 correction. This hearing will be continued until
14 December 14th at 7:00 in the evening for purposes
15 of receiving the additional documents discussed
16 this evening, concluding the hearing at that time.
17 With that, I'll announce this hearing has been
18 continued.
19 (Hearing adjourned at 7:43 p.m.)
20 ---
21
22
23
24
25
54
1
2
3
4
5
6
7 I hereby certify that the
8 proceedings and evidence are contained fully and
9 accurately in the notes taken by me at the hearing
10 in the above matter; and that the foregoing is a
11 true and correct transcript of the same to the best
12 of my ability.
13
14
15 _____________________________
16 JOSEPHINE HOLLMAN, C.R., N.P.
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25