Before
THE TOBYHANNA TOWNSHIP PLANNING COMMISSION
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In Re: Regular Business Meeting
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Tobyhanna Township Government Center Building
State Avenue
Pocono Pines, Pennsylvania 18350
Thursday, November 5, 2009, beginning at 7 p.m.
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PRESENT: MARK SINCAVAGE, Chairperson
JOSEPH MILLER, Vice-Chairperson
ROBERT BAXTER, Board Member
ANNE LAMBERTON, Board Member
PATRICIA M. RINEHIMER, Board Member
ROBERT McHALE, P.E.,
Township Engineer
PATRICK ARMSTRONG, ESQUIRE, Solicitor
ALSO PRESENT: PHYLLIS HAASE, Zoning Officer
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Panko Reporting
537 Sarah Street, 2nd Floor
Stroudsburg, Pennsylvania 18360
(570) 421-3620
2
1 MR. SINCAVAGE: I'll call the
2 regularly scheduled meeting of the Tobyhanna
3 Township Planning Commission for Thursday, November
4 5, to order. Any public comment? None.
5 We'll need approval of the
6 October 2009 minutes.
7 MS. HAASE: Mr. Chairman, I have
8 one correction on Page 19, Line 25, the correct
9 name should be L-e-l-l-o.
10 MR. SINCAVAGE: Anything else?
11 Motion to approve as corrected?
12 MR. MILLER: I'll make that
13 motion.
14 MR. SINCAVAGE: Do I have a
15 second?
16 MRS. LAMBERTON: I'll second it.
17 MR. SINCAVAGE: Motion and
18 seconded. All those in favor please say aye.
19 MR. MILLER: Aye.
20 MRS. LAMBERTON: Aye.
21 MS. RINEHIMER: Aye.
22 MR. SINCAVAGE: Aye.
23 We received the proposed
24 schedule for 2010 on the flash drive. Is there any
25 problems, conflicts? Are we all okay?
3
1 MS. HAASE: I just want to
2 mention for July and September, if you notice we
3 changed the meetings due to the holidays. As long
4 as that was acceptable.
5 MR. SINCAVAGE: That's better.
6 I looked at that. That way it doesn't conflict.
7 It's not the first week right before the holiday.
8 Motion to approve the schedule
9 for 2010 as submitted.
10 MR. MILLER: I'll make the.
11 MRS. LAMBERTON: Second.
12 MR. SINCAVAGE: Motion. Second.
13 All those in favor please say aye.
14 MR. MILLER: Aye.
15 MRS. LAMBERTON: Aye.
16 MS. RINEHIMER: Aye.
17 MR. BAXTER: Aye.
18 MR. SINCAVAGE: Aye.
19 Locust Ridge Quarry, still on
20 extension until next month, I believe.
21 MR. ARMSTRONG: Actually, they
22 gave us that indefinite extension, but they did
23 respond I think a couple months ago when we sent
24 out a letter, saying because of the economy --
25 MR. SINCAVAGE: So we need a
4
1 motion to table.
2 MR. MILLER: So moved.
3 MRS. LAMBERTON: Second.
4 MR. SINCAVAGE: Motion and
5 second. All those in favor please say aye.
6 MR. MILLER: Aye.
7 MRS. LAMBERTON: Aye.
8 MS. RINEHIMER: Aye.
9 MR. BAXTER: Aye.
10 MR. SINCAVAGE: Aye.
11 First item under new business is
12 Lost Trails.
13 MR. TONY NOVAK: I'll be
14 speaking. I'm Tony Novak.
15 MR. SINCAVAGE: You might want
16 to explain to the board what we are here for
17 tonight.
18 MR. ARMSTRONG: Lost Trails, if
19 you remember, was before you back somewhere in the
20 summer, I think July, with the presubmission of
21 their conditional use application. Since that time
22 they did submit their conditional use application
23 and it's scheduled for a public hearing next week,
24 I believe it's November 11th--
25 MR. TONY NOVAK: 11th.
5
1 MR. ARMSTRONG: -- at 6:30
2 before the board of supervisors. And pursuant to
3 the zoning ordinance, whenever there is a
4 conditional use public hearing scheduled,
5 application, the applicant and the application may
6 be reviewed by the planning commission, and the
7 planning commission can provide any comments that
8 it sees fit for the board to consider at the public
9 hearing. So that, in a nutshell, is why it's on
10 your agenda tonight, why the applicant is here, if
11 you wanted to review the plan again and any
12 additional comments you may have, any questions of
13 the applicant you have. It's beneficial to us that
14 he's actually here tonight. So, thank you,
15 Mr. Novak.
16 MR. SINCAVAGE: I think one of
17 the comments that we've heard about the project
18 from neighbors out there was that they were
19 concerned about the noise, concerned about dust,
20 concerned about traffic as usual, and I'm wondering
21 how you may be addressing those items or looking
22 into those items.
23 MR. TONY NOVAK: Well, the only
24 complaints that I know of, that I'm aware of, is
25 from the Pocono Township side, the people who
6
1 reside at the resort in the -- they call them the
2 cottages. And there it is only 3 or 4 people who
3 come to the meetings every once in a while.
4 However, this project is way on the other side of
5 the mountain. They are probably 3, 4, 5 miles
6 away. We do conduct an ATV guided tour activity
7 over there at the resort. We start off by the golf
8 course. We don't utilize any of these trails
9 whatsoever. There is other existing trails on the
10 other side. To the best of my knowledge, I believe
11 that is their complaint, is with that, that's going
12 on over there. But as far as this goes, I don't
13 know of any complaints about the noise and stuff
14 like that. So I don't know how to address the
15 board.
16 MR. SINCAVAGE: What about dust?
17 I have seen the dust flying across 380 myself.
18 MR. TONY NOVAK: We had that
19 occur once. If I may, up here on the map there is
20 a section right here. There is a little hump where
21 you see -- you can see us, you can see 380 and
22 that's where there is a big sign for 380 is right
23 there. That happened a year ago. I think Phyllis
24 had called me and asked me to investigate what is
25 going on now. There is a -- I'll call it a trail,
7
1 existing lane right here, this black line. It's
2 very close to 380. I had closed that down, and
3 there was a hump that was all dirt and the people
4 like to -- they were riding on it and causing a
5 cloud of stuff down. So what we did is we closed
6 that completely off and planted some grass on it
7 and everything so it's not dirt anymore and made
8 sure that they don't go anywhere near 380 on that
9 trail system there. Ever since we did that, I have
10 not heard of any complaints. I have not witnessed
11 myself any of that dust or anything coming over.
12 That kept it down. So that was the only instance
13 that I was aware of as far as dust goes. Otherwise
14 we are down in a pit situation down there. It gets
15 a little dusty for us, you know, down in the
16 parking area, but not coming out of there.
17 MR. SINCAVAGE: I know you even
18 mentioned this. Do you have a problem with people
19 coming onto the site when you operate?
20 MR. TONY NOVAK: Well, you have
21 1200 acres adjoining this piece of property in
22 Pocono Township, which is a massive trail system.
23 MR. SINCAVAGE: Is that owned by
24 Pocono Manor?
25 MR. TONY NOVAK: Yeah. They own
8
1 like 3500 acres there. That's been going on for
2 years as far as I know. People just come on and
3 they ride. Even some of the people that were here,
4 even the cottages who complained, their kids have
5 ATVs and they ride there. Okay? As far as I know,
6 not with any permission from the Manor. Okay? And
7 then you do have a lot of people that come over
8 from Stillwater Lake Estates and from Emerald
9 Lakes, coming in and riding. While we are there we
10 don't usually see them because they know we patrol.
11 I have people in security driving throughout the
12 1200 acres plus this area here. What goes on at
13 night and stuff -- you can't literally fence in the
14 3500 acres, period. Whether we are there or not,
15 that proceeds to go on. Bobby Felins, who does the
16 mining in there, has, on occasion, people come in
17 and destroy his machines, drive his machines into
18 the ponds that are there. I mean, he told me some
19 stories. But all that was before us and whether we
20 are there or not, I don't think that has a bearing
21 on what is going on. At least for our X amount of
22 time, 5 days a week, between 9 and 5, that activity
23 seems to cease because we are there.
24 MRS. LAMBERTON: Did you ever
25 consider any screening put up against 380, like for
9
1 plantings or trees?
2 MR. TONY NOVAK: I have not.
3 MRS. LAMBERTON: I have had
4 complaints for the dust as well in that area where
5 most of the traffic is, where your parking lot is,
6 where people go around to the pit. Just for your
7 information.
8 MR. SINCAVAGE: Where's the pit?
9 Can you show it to us.
10 MR. TONY NOVAK: Well, the pit
11 is --
12 MR. SINCAVAGE: Well, show me
13 where your parking area is. Let's do that.
14 MR. TONY NOVAK: Okay. Right
15 there is the parking where everybody comes in,
16 pulls in, parks, unloads and then they come down
17 over here is where they check in with us. So
18 that's the parking area. These routes you see,
19 these are all existing routes that were done by the
20 mining. We call this whole thing the pit. This
21 whole thing is generically known throughout, from
22 people you talk to, as the pit on Sullivan Trail.
23 Okay? So when people ride throughout these areas,
24 these lines here, these roadways, they are all
25 existing. This is a pond here. There is a pond
10
1 right there. There is another pond there and a pond
2 there. We are calling them ponds, but they are
3 collection, water collection. There is an aerial.
4 MR. ARMSTRONG: Tony, actually,
5 that's what I just handed Mr. Sincavage. You
6 submitted your conditional use --
7 MR. TONY NOVAK: Yeah. There is
8 a bird's-eye aerial of the area there.
9 MR. ARMSTRONG: Are these
10 depictions you're talking about?
11 MR. TONY NOVAK: Correct.
12 MR. SINCAVAGE: I saw these in
13 the package. In this picture, you can see that
14 there is a vehicle parked right near 380.
15 MR. TONY NOVAK: Yes. I use
16 that as an overflow parking. This section here.
17 That also prevents them from coming over.
18 MR. SINCAVAGE: So you do use
19 that area for parking?
20 MR. TONY NOVAK: Yes.
21 MR. SINCAVAGE: Well, then I
22 think your screening question is pretty
23 appropriate.
24 MRS. LAMBERTON: Absolutely.
25 MR. TONY NOVAK: You don't want
11
1 people to see the vehicles?
2 MRS. LAMBERTON: Not
3 necessarily.
4 MR. SINCAVAGE: Screening would
5 also help to cut down on the dust.
6 MRS. LAMBERTON: The dust.
7 MR. SINCAVAGE: You would hope.
8 Any other comments or questions?
9 MR. ARMSTRONG: Just for
10 purposes of the commission to consider, the zoning
11 ordinance does actually have a list of certain
12 conditions that you can consider. Parking
13 facilities should be provided in conformance with
14 the zoning ordinance. Signage -- are you proposing
15 any signs?
16 MR. TONY NOVAK: Not right now,
17 I'm not, no.
18 MR. SINCAVAGE: Going back to
19 your parking area, your parking lots I do not
20 believe are gravel.
21 MR. TONY NOVAK: There is gravel
22 in there. It used to be a staging area for the
23 trucks when they were waiting, I guess, to collect
24 their stuff.
25 MR. SINCAVAGE: Is that area up
12
1 by 380 gravel?
2 MR. TONY NOVAK: No. That part
3 is not, no.
4 MR. SINCAVAGE: I'm sorry. Go
5 ahead.
6 MR. ARMSTRONG: This indicates
7 adequate fencing, screening, natural growth not
8 less than 8 feet in height where required by the
9 board of supervisors; adequate sanitary facilities
10 in accordance with rules and regs of the Department
11 of Environmental Protection; there is a requirement
12 that they comply with the noise regulations of the
13 township; the prevention of any noxious smells or
14 odors; adequate lighting shall be provided after
15 dark for any roadway, street, parking area or
16 walkways, ramps, steps, where deemed appropriate by
17 the board; subsurface disposal area constructed to
18 serve the facility use shall not encroach on any
19 required parking area.
20 So those are just some of the
21 things set forth in the zoning ordinance.
22 MR. SINCAVAGE: The noise level,
23 have you ever had any decibel testing done out
24 there or has the township done any.
25 MS. HAASE: DCNR I believe has a
13
1 regulation.
2 MR. TONY NOVAK: DCNR does
3 right. 99 decibels, when you measure it at 20
4 inches away from the vehicle. Okay? And that's
5 what we adhere to. We do keep a meter there. If
6 we feel there is anybody over that and we have an
7 ear for that now, from being there, we can pretty
8 much pinpoint you pretty fast, if we do a test and
9 you fail, you can't ride.
10 MR. MILLER: Do you permit
11 mufflers other than stock?
12 MR. TONY NOVAK: Do we permit
13 mufflers other than stock?
14 MR. MILLER: Because the
15 modified machines --
16 MR. TONY NOVAK: Well, they have
17 modified mufflers, but they still have to meet the
18 99 decibels. That's not to say that any non-stock
19 muffler that they purchase does adhere to that and
20 that's why we would have to meter that, which is
21 what we do.
22 MR. SINCAVAGE: You do that?
23 MR. TONY NOVAK: Yes, we do.
24 You will find, since you asked that question, every
25 machine that comes off the assembly line with a
14
1 stock muffler, meets that or is below that.
2 MR. MILLER: Right.
3 MR. TONY NOVAK: That's a state
4 requirement, federal requirement.
5 MR. MILLER: When we get into
6 modifying those engines, mufflers --
7 MR. TONY NOVAK: Correct. We
8 find people like to take off -- they think if it's
9 louder, it makes their machine faster. They
10 actually lose power on their machine and they
11 actually burn more gas. When we educate them, they
12 are like, I didn't know that. They claim they are
13 racers and they race at other places. And I say,
14 well, if you're a racer you would know that. Okay?
15 MR. SINCAVAGE: Bob, do you have
16 any comments?
17 MR. McHALE: PennDOT, you had
18 indicated I guess they are reviewing it?
19 MR. TONY NOVAK: I went and
20 checked with them two days ago. The Stroudsburg
21 office submitted it down to the Allentown office on
22 October 9th. They have not heard back anything
23 yet, so I have not gotten anything back from them.
24 But they are reviewing for the driveway permit, the
25 access permit off of Sullivan Trail.
15
1 MR. ARMSTRONG: Do you have a
2 vehicle count per day that you look at as how many
3 vehicles per day you use?
4 MR. TONY NOVAK: I'm not sure I
5 came prepared for that. We have probably about --
6 we get like about 140 people on a Saturday or
7 Sunday, but that's not a vehicle count. Most of
8 them arrive -- you can see in some of the pictures.
9 They have 4, 5, 6 ATVs on the back, and that's -- I
10 had to resubmit for the driveway permit. I gave
11 them a count. We keep a roster for our insurance
12 purpose. I provided them with a roster and gave
13 them a daily count for the entire month. And had
14 advised that the formula, if they so choose to use
15 it, the roster is the individual names, and on
16 average, 4 or 5 vehicles come into the park, I
17 mean, ATVs on one trailer, so they would have to
18 take the total count and divide it by 4 or 5,
19 whichever number they choose, to come up with the
20 actual vehicle count coming in. So it's anywhere
21 between 15, 25, maybe 30 tops, as far as vehicles
22 go. But we do have like 150 people out of that,
23 though. So that's part of what they were going to
24 investigate.
25 MR. SINCAVAGE: Any other
16
1 comments, questions from the commission? Would the
2 commission like to recommend to the board of
3 supervisors that the applicant gravel the parking
4 lot and driveways and the driveways leading to the
5 parking lots, so that there is some sort of hard
6 surface for those areas; and secondly they screen
7 the place along the 380 area that is currently
8 open?
9 MRS. LAMBERTON: I would like to
10 see something up there.
11 MR. MILLER: What kind of
12 screening would you like to see?
13 MR. SINCAVAGE: I think they can
14 do a berm and just put landscaping, some shrubs
15 that would be easy enough to grow during the
16 summer, that blocks very well, likes the full sun.
17 MR. TONY NOVAK: How high of a
18 berm?
19 MR. SINCAVAGE: I would say
20 probably 4 to 6 feet, just so you can block that
21 out. Shrubs on top and on the side and that would
22 make a difference. You know, do some shrubs. I
23 wouldn't look so much for trees. I don't see what
24 trees are gong to do, but shrubs --
25 MR. MILLER: On top of the berm.
17
1 That would be good.
2 MRS. LAMBERTON: Yes. The
3 evergreens would block it more.
4 MR. SINCAVAGE: It sounds like
5 the noise issue is under control.
6 MRS. LAMBERTON: Is there any
7 type of dust control that we could look at, any
8 type of watering or --
9 MR. TONY NOVAK: At some of the
10 parks, if dusting becomes a major issue, they have
11 a watering -- they call it a watering truck or
12 canister, it could even be in the back of an ATV or
13 back of a pickup truck with a nozzle on it, maybe 5
14 foot, 6 foot pipe with a bunch of holes in it and
15 what you do is just drive, let it seep out and turn
16 the dust more into moist dirt -- okay? -- which
17 wont let it dust up. And you will see they may
18 even do that at NASCAR races, in some spots.
19 MR. ARMSTRONG: I was thinking
20 they probably have one of those in the quarry.
21 MRS. LAMBERTON: Most quarries
22 require it.
23 MR. TONY NOVAK: Really? I know
24 they don't have one. I'm not seeing one there.
25 MR. SINCAVAGE: I know Locust
18
1 Ridge does.
2 MRS. LAMBERTON: They have to.
3 MR. TONY NOVAK: If what they
4 are doing is producing a lot of dust, yeah.
5 MRS. LAMBERTON: It might be
6 something to consider.
7 MR. BAXTER: Is the quarry here
8 still active?
9 MR. TONY NOVAK: Yes. It was
10 reduced to 5 acres. This whole area was a quarry,
11 to the best my knowledge, like 28 acres. It has
12 now been reduced to this section right here, which
13 is 5 acres. That was part of the packet. I don't
14 know why it was reduced. I don't know if that was
15 a state thing. I don't know the reason for that.
16 So it's reduced there. We do not ride in this 5
17 acre piece. We stay out of that area and,
18 consequently, we ride on the rest of the residual
19 that's here. So it is active or permitted on that
20 5 acres.
21 MR. BAXTER: Is that activity
22 going on while --
23 MR. TONY NOVAK: They haven't --
24 they pulled all their equipment out of there I
25 guess temporarily for another reason for the past
19
1 year.
2 MRS. LAMBERTON: Is there access
3 from Sullivan Trail only?
4 MR. TONY NOVAK: To that piece
5 of property, yes.
6 MRS. LAMBERTON: So they are
7 coming in the same entrance that your customers are
8 bringing the ATVs in.
9 MR. TONY NOVAK: Yes. We met
10 with Chris Cuba (phonetic), he's in charge of the
11 mining. He just had me make sure that the people
12 know that the trucks have the right of way. Okay?
13 And, consequently, we met with Bobby Felins and his
14 operators. They are very aware that we are in
15 there, when they do come in. They are coming in
16 and depositing stuff, maybe 2 or 3 trucks a week
17 from when we are there. You don't usually see them
18 on the weekends. They don't work on the weekends
19 and that's our busy time. So the only lay over
20 that we have would be a Thursday, Friday and a
21 Monday.
22 MR. BAXTER: Is there dust
23 created by their operation at all.
24 MR. TONY NOVAK: Not right now.
25 MR. BAXTER: In the summer.
20
1 MR. TONY NOVAK: They haven't
2 been there. When they were there, they were. They
3 were digging and putting it in that -- I don't know
4 what that's called, the machine that sieves
5 everything --
6 MRS. LAMBERTON: Screening.
7 MR. TONY NOVAK: Screening.
8 They created a little bit of dust. How can you
9 not?
10 MRS. LAMBERTON: That's why they
11 have the watering trucks.
12 MR. TONY NOVAK: So we got our E
13 and S plan and we have a wetland crossing down at
14 the bottom. If you can inch that up a little bit.
15 Right here -- this is wetlands right there, going
16 from left to right. And we had to submit a plan
17 for that area where we can cross, which was
18 approved by MCCD and they forwarded that to DEP. I
19 should be getting the actual permit in the mail
20 from DEP for that, plus the E and S plan for the
21 surrounding area. I can go into details if you
22 want to know what we are building there, but it's
23 just a raised trail and letting the water go
24 underneath so the tires of the ATVs never touch the
25 same soil that runs and causes sediment to go down
21
1 to the creek that's down below. Up here, this
2 section here that looks like honeycombs, that's a
3 52 acre endangered moth sanctuary. We don't ride
4 in there. I don't know if we are allowed to, but
5 we don't. And those other trails you see up here,
6 those are all existing trails. That's the shooting
7 range that they have at Pocono Manor.
8 Now, as I made my presentation a
9 couple months ago I wen across the street to
10 Blueberry Estates with a prepared statement and
11 knocked on every door. And I think we have like 34
12 or 40 names where they actually signed the petition
13 and they don't have a problem with us being there,
14 they don't have a problem with the noise. They
15 actually like that we are there because they said
16 it keeps the kids out of their development and some
17 of the people there come over and participate with
18 us as well.
19 I did go up Sullivan Trail up
20 over here to this section, which is part of Emerald
21 Lakes and likewise did the same thing and just
22 about everybody I knocked on the door who was home
23 signed the same petition. It's all part of the
24 packet in there. So when we opened up, you asked
25 me about people complaining, there may be one or
22
1 two over here and that's it. The rest is coming
2 from cottages on the other side and I don't know
3 why they were coming to the Tobyhanna meetings.
4 That's a whole other issue over there.
5 MR. SINCAVAGE: Because we
6 listen.
7 MR. TONY NOVAK: Because you
8 listen, right.
9 MR. SINCAVAGE: So the
10 commission would make a recommendation to the board
11 of supervisors that the applicant comply with all
12 zoning ordinances that are applicable and comply
13 with all outside agency requirements; suggest that
14 the gravel be placed in the parking lot and on the
15 driveways; and that a screening and berm be placed
16 along the 380 open area to help with the dust
17 situation.
18 MS. HAASE: If I may just
19 clarify, there is one section of the drive that has
20 asphalt down.
21 MR. TONY NOVAK: Yes, the
22 entrance leading in, oh, at least 100 -- I'd say
23 100 feet, if not more, is macadam. I believe
24 probably F and F Paving did that when they opened
25 up the pit.
23
1 MRS. LAMBERTON: Can I ask, in
2 the area that was like the old pit, that's where
3 the aerial is showing all the parking, do the ATVs
4 drive around the parked cars? Is that how it
5 works?
6 MR. TONY NOVAK: No. They
7 unload. Okay. They have to go to and from their
8 vehicles because a lot of people like to picnic
9 there. Okay? We have a 5 mile an hour zone in the
10 parking areas, in the entrance area, but they do
11 have to go from when they unload the vehicle to
12 drive out of the parking area and likewise come
13 back in, but it is not a designated riding area
14 like a trail would be or like the rest of the open
15 area.
16 MRS. LAMBERTON: If I recall, I
17 remember an open area where they run around in
18 circles.
19 MR. TONY NOVAK: That's all up
20 here, up in this area in here. All in here. The
21 pit area is not a designated trail system. There
22 are no arrows, there are no directionals. It's a
23 play area which is commonly known in the ATV
24 community as a place to practice techniques. There
25 is a lot of jumps there, there's hills there and
24
1 stuff like that. So it's a play area for them to
2 play. The actual trail riding they go across the
3 crossing that we had to make there and then go into
4 the trail system.
5 MRS. LAMBERTON: My only concern
6 was really for you, if you're going to put stone
7 down, you don't want that thrown up with all the
8 cars and kids, you know.
9 MR. TONY NOVAK: No. We
10 would -- hopefully they don't make us put really
11 thick stone because then no matter what you do,
12 even the trucks themselves pick it up.
13 MR. SINCAVAGE: But if you use
14 modified or even milling, something like that.
15 MRS. LAMBERTON: That would
16 compress overtime. I just didn't know the
17 difference between the two areas.
18 MR. TONY NOVAK: Yes. They
19 usually respect their areas where the vehicles are.
20 They don't want to kick up the stone. That's not
21 to say they all do. I mean, it's like everything
22 else, we have to patrol it. We are down there all
23 the time and we stop. And we find the little
24 children stay in the open area more than going into
25 the trail system because they have very little
25
1 ATVs. The parents -- we have parents come down
2 with lawn chairs and they pick a spot, it's all
3 wide open, they can watch their children. And
4 everybody else, the older people seem to go into
5 the trail system.
6 MR. SINCAVAGE: Do I have a
7 motion for the items that were listed?
8 MR. MILLER: I'll make that
9 motion.
10 MR. SINCAVAGE: I have a motion.
11 Do I have a second to that motion?
12 MS. RINEHIMER: Second.
13 MR. SINCAVAGE: Motion and
14 second. All those in favor please say aye.
15 MR. MILLER: Aye.
16 MRS. LAMBERTON: Aye.
17 MS. RINEHIMER: Aye.
18 MR. BAXTER: Aye.
19 MR. SINCAVAGE: Aye.
20 MR. TONY NOVAK: Is there a
21 motion that you would recommend -- that you
22 recommend the thing as a whole that you would
23 recommend as a planning commission that based on
24 these items, extra items that you'd like to see,
25 that you actually recommend that they would grant
26
1 the conditional use if you don't see a problem with
2 it?
3 MR. SINCAVAGE: That's basically
4 what we are saying. We are saying the plan is okay
5 with these conditions.
6 MR. TONY NOVAK: Okay. Thank
7 you.
8 MR. SINCAVAGE: Your package was
9 very well done. Thank you for being so
10 cooperative. I know you've been cooperative with a
11 lot of agencies. We certainly appreciate that.
12 MR. TONY NOVAK: Yes. Thank you
13 very much.
14 MS. HAASE: And that's what I
15 would like to say as well, you've been very good to
16 work with.
17 MR. TONY NOVAK: Thank you. I
18 appreciate it.
19 MR. SINCAVAGE: Our next item on
20 the agenda is Aqua Pennsylvania Control Building.
21 They asked to be tabled tonight. There is a copy
22 of an email in our packet.
23 So I'll entertain a motion to
24 table Aqua Pennsylvania Control Building.
25 MR. MILLER: So moved.
27
1 MRS. LAMBERTON: Second.
2 MR. SINCAVAGE: All those in
3 favor please say aye.
4 MR. MILLER: Aye.
5 MRS. LAMBERTON: Aye.
6 MS. RINEHIMER: Aye.
7 MR. BAXTER: Aye.
8 MR. SINCAVAGE: Aye.
9 Act 167 Stormwater. Pat, do you
10 have a comment?
11 MR. ARMSTRONG: The only comment
12 I had was you guys reviewed it and made a
13 recommendation last month. Since then we forwarded
14 it on to the county. We have not received any
15 comments back yet. The supervisors will most
16 likely be authorizing it to be advertised for
17 adoption next month or so. But other than that,
18 there is nothing really new to report.
19 MR. SINCAVAGE: Do you have
20 anything on that?
21 MR. McHALE: No, sir.
22 MR. SINCAVAGE: Arrowhead Lake.
23 I thought they were going to be here tonight.
24 MS. HAASE: Nope.
25 MR. SINCAVAGE: No.
28
1 MR. McHALE: They sent an email
2 to Phyllis requesting some preliminary input.
3 MR. SINCAVAGE: But there is no
4 one here representing them?
5 MR. ARMSTRONG: Have they filed
6 a conditional use application yet, Phyllis? They
7 filed for a presubmission hearing. We had that
8 last month.
9 MS. HAASE: Correct. And I
10 think that was one of the reasons they wanted this
11 to be reviewed. They are presenting something to
12 the township. I have some concerns regarding what
13 they have presented and actually it came at a good
14 time today for the planning commission to take a
15 look at it. Some of the items that it presented
16 were some issues with zoning. The engineering firm
17 doesn't feel that there is a problem, however, the
18 zoning officer does. So they would need to be
19 granted some relief. I'm hoping with the comments
20 from the planning commission, that Mr. McHale and
21 myself, we can get them going in the right
22 direction.
23 If you notice, in their
24 landscaping plan, they have landscaping down at the
25 bottom here. Of course, it's not on their
29
1 property. They are proposing to use the tennis
2 court as dual purpose, not just as a tennis court
3 but also as a parking lot. I'm not very
4 comfortable with that. The ordinance --
5 MR. McHALE: Excuse me, just one
6 second, Phyllis. We need you to stay on the tennis
7 court issue. I'm not really sure how they would
8 stripe that and still be able to put up netting,
9 even if they took the netting down during parking.
10 I mean, you'd have to restripe every time you do.
11 So you wouldn't have the boundaries of the court.
12 MRS. LAMBERTON: Won't it be
13 open?
14 MR. McHALE: Well, they are
15 proposing, if you see at the top -- Phyllis, you
16 want to point to where they have gates now to where
17 I guess they would access with vehicles through
18 those double gates.
19 MR. ARMSTRONG: That's fenced
20 in.
21 MR. McHALE: That area is fenced
22 in. Which is really unique.
23 MR. ARMSTRONG: So they are not
24 proposing to get rid of the tennis courts?
25 MS. HAASE: I'm not happy with
30
1 that. So we have the issue of the tennis courts.
2 MR. SINCAVAGE: I'll just say on
3 the record that they've got to be joking with the
4 landscaping.
5 MS. HAASE: No.
6 MR. SINCAVAGE: Tell them the
7 chairman of the planning commission said you've got
8 to be joking.
9 MS. HAASE: Well, I'm going to
10 speak to them tomorrow.
11 We have the cul-de-sac, which of
12 course, we have plantings in the cul-de-sac. Most
13 importantly, around the property, there is supposed
14 to be a 24 foot buffer. Of course, they are
15 encroaching on that.
16 The stance of the engineer is
17 that it's an existing tennis court, therefore, they
18 should be allowed to remain. However, the section
19 in parking speaks to that if they do any
20 renovations to the building, additions, changes,
21 that even though it may be nonconforming, it has to
22 come into conformance. So the nonconformance issue
23 is not something that we've even discussed.
24 Of course, there was a concern I
25 had here regarding coming in, the radius.
31
1 MR. McHALE: I believe when we
2 spoke a month or so ago there was a representative
3 from Pennoni Associates, Mike Fenick, as I recall,
4 here. When we were talking about stormwater
5 management, there was some discussion and I think
6 also maybe in another meeting, work session perhaps
7 with the board, with the lake being right there
8 next to them, we didn't see an issue with peak flow
9 rates, but we did say we would like to see some
10 water quality measures, even though this is not
11 within an Act 167 Model Ordinance area. We felt
12 there would be some reasonable trade-offs between
13 not just doing a direct discharge into the lake.
14 And they didn't want a point source discharge
15 anyway because if they do, they are back into NPDS
16 permit.
17 So, as far as I guess your
18 discussions with them, Phyllis or email, they are
19 looking to not even do any stormwater management,
20 but we really need something for water quality,
21 runoff from the asphalt surfaces, bioretention
22 areas. I think even our planning commission
23 suggested to them to consider bioretention areas in
24 or about the parking area. Is that correct?
25 MR. SINCAVAGE: Yes.
32
1 MS. HAASE: Their main concern
2 is to disturb less than an acre. That is what
3 their main concern is. I think that is why we
4 received this submission.
5 MR. McHALE: But the Monroe
6 County Conservation District had indicated to them
7 that they'd be willing to work with them if they
8 were slightly over that acre, as long as they
9 didn't have that point source discharge. So they
10 were going to use something like a modified level
11 spreader, if you would, and spread the water
12 through the lawn areas before it went into the
13 lake. But, again, there should be some kind of
14 water quality measures incorporated.
15 And there is, according to their
16 plan, areas that they could do that within a
17 reasonable --
18 MR. SINCAVAGE: Yeah. I mean,
19 where is runoff going to go from the roof? They
20 don't have anything planned for that. Where is the
21 runoff from the parking area?
22 MR. BAXTER: If I remember
23 right, the entrance is also sloping down a bit into
24 that whole site.
25 MR. SINCAVAGE: Yes. I mean
33
1 that's a low point in the development. That's a
2 low point in the development because it all slopes
3 down into the lake right there. So there has to be
4 stormwater going throughout. There will be runoff
5 from adjacent property going through there.
6 Anything else Phyllis.
7 MS. HAASE: No, sir.
8 MR. SINCAVAGE: I think your
9 concerns are certainly agreed to by this
10 commission. They have to come into conformance
11 with the ordinance.
12 MS. HAASE: Yes. I really
13 truthfully was not very happy that this was even
14 submitted for review.
15 MR. SINCAVAGE: They have the
16 cul-de-sac, and they are using the cul-de-sac for
17 buffer area.
18 MRS. LAMBERTON: Maybe they want
19 to come in and cut off the road, and then those
20 people couldn't gain access. Is that entrance
21 moved to the right more?
22 MS. HAASE: This one here?
23 MRS. LAMBERTON: Yeah. I don't
24 remember it being there.
25 MS. HAASE: I don't believe so.
34
1 It's just off set.
2 MRS. LAMBERTON: Maybe it's the
3 tennis court that's throwing me off.
4 MR. SINCAVAGE: They certainly
5 have enough area to do parking, what's required
6 there. There is enough area to do it.
7 MS. HAASE: They are required, I
8 believe, 63 or 68 spaces. They do not want to
9 disturb any land. There, again, they are concerned
10 about disturbing over an acre. So they are trying
11 to do a multi-use facility with a tennis court.
12 MR. SINCAVAGE: Okay. Anything
13 else?
14 If there is nothing else with
15 that, we'll move on.
16 Pat, we had discussed the
17 aesthetic value of the Blakeslee area, I guess is
18 the way to put it. I forwarded you and I forwarded
19 the commission an article that appeared in the
20 paper from Hamburg, I'm not sure if they are a
21 borough or township. Maybe we can discuss that a
22 little bit with the commission like you and I did.
23 MR. ARMSTRONG: Yes.
24 Aesthetics, it's an area where you can put
25 something in your SALDO and zoning exactly what you
35
1 want to put in. I have seen townships put in very
2 general broad-stroked requirements. Normally, it's
3 something along the lines -- usually that's set in
4 zoning, that during the review process of the land
5 development or subdivision, that the applicant
6 provide architectural depictions for review of the
7 planning commission as well as the board of
8 supervisors and that's the way it's kind of worked
9 into the ordinance. And then when it gets before
10 the board of supervisors and the planning
11 commission, it becomes more like a give and take
12 situation, because the applicants are always coming
13 in here requesting waivers of numerous amounts of
14 SALDO requirements, zoning -- well, not zoning, but
15 SALDO requirements, and it becomes more of a give
16 and take situation. Okay? You want these
17 waivers -- we want whatever you're going to put in
18 to kind of be characteristic of what we see our
19 township represented. And it doesn't mean a
20 concrete block box of whatever you're proposing.
21 It means, you know, some rural communities, I was
22 telling Mark, prefer to see commercial businesses
23 come in that look like barns. It depends on where
24 you are. I don't know, Tobyhanna Township, if you
25 have an idea of what would represent Tobyhanna
36
1 Township, but that's one process you can consider
2 in the future with respect to applicants coming in.
3 But I think it's a good idea to start getting a
4 game plan together now if you want to start
5 considering taking that route.
6 MR. SINCAVAGE: I said to Pat,
7 our ordinance currently allows us to request to see
8 the elevations of the building. He said, yes. I
9 said at that point can we start requesting to see
10 it look a certain way, the way we want it to look.
11 And he said yes, even the way it's existing right
12 now. So then I said, well, now we have to decide
13 what we want the township to look like. And two
14 buildings that come to mind for me in the Blakeslee
15 area is the ESSA Bank building and the insurance
16 building, Grivner. Those two buildings, I think
17 one is a new built and one is a remodel. So we
18 have two examples. I'd be willing to go out and
19 take some pictures of those. So when the applicant
20 comes in, we can say, even give it to Phyllis, this
21 is what we want your building to look like.
22 Something like this. I was wondering if there was
23 any other buildings --
24 MR. BAXTER: How about the
25 larger scale buildings that we are going to get
37
1 eventually?
2 MR. SINCAVAGE: That's what I
3 was wondering. Does anybody have any ideas?
4 MRS. LAMBERTON: That article
5 with the woman with the McDonald's and having it
6 conform to their area, that's something we should
7 seriously look at.
8 MR. SINCAVAGE: Any other
9 buildings that currently are done that would typify
10 what you want the township to look like? If you
11 wanted to email me and I can run out or if you guys
12 have a digital camera, we'll get --
13 MRS. LAMBERTON: You want to
14 figure out what look you think would fit.
15 Everybody's opinions are going to be different.
16 You have to start somewhere. Do you want a rustic
17 Poconos, big lake communities?
18 MR. McHALE: Many of the larger
19 retailers already have prototypical drawings that
20 they prepare for various type of communities. They
21 have colonial styles, they have southwestern, they
22 have, you know anything you can just about imagine.
23 They might have a dozen different styles, but
24 unless you ask them for something like that, they
25 will give you a straight box. So that's -- what
38
1 Mark is saying is true, you have to have something
2 in place as to what you'd like to see.
3 MRS. LAMBERTON: And in your
4 SALDO that requires it.
5 MR. ARMSTRONG: You can put
6 certain provisions in SALDO and zoning, however, if
7 you don't have it, it still doesn't mean you can't
8 ask the questions. You can't say, hey, you want a
9 waiver of this, which is the equivalent of -- I
10 mean some waivers add up. They do add up to money
11 to the applicant. If the township in the past has
12 been willing to grant a number of waivers, it's not
13 out of place for the township to also ask, well,
14 wait, let me see the building you're proposing and
15 let us see, you know, if it's appeasing to us.
16 MR. BAXTER: But it has more
17 teeth if it's in SALDO.
18 MR. SINCAVAGE: Right.
19 MR. ARMSTRONG: What it does in
20 SALDO, one thing it does is it notifies the
21 applicant, oh, they are going to want to see
22 architectural depictions. So they will come before
23 you -- I mean, I have been at other townships -- I
24 was telling Mark this afternoon or this morning,
25 whenever we spoke, that with certain, for example,
39
1 pharmacy chains, they come in, and they have three
2 maybe like Bob said, 3 or 4 actual architectural
3 depictions of possible stores. They always start
4 with the cookie cutter, but depending on the
5 commission, depending on the board, sometimes they
6 are okay with it and sometimes, you know -- I have
7 represented boards that are stubborn, they want
8 what they want, and sometimes they have an
9 architectural depiction that everyone is agreeable
10 to, sometimes they don't and they keep pushing.
11 There are times that the developer, the applicant
12 will just wash their hands and they will, you
13 know -- depending upon what you're looking for.
14 It's not out of place at this point to start
15 asking. There is nothing wrong with asking the
16 questions.
17 And, like Mark said, there is a
18 provision right now that, you know, allows you to
19 require or request, what is it, the elevations?
20 MR. SINCAVAGE: Elevations of
21 the building.
22 MR. ARMSTRONG: Another thing to
23 keep in mind, another aspect of this is a lot of
24 times you see the aesthetic provisions being
25 handled in the zoning, particularly with like a
40
1 village commercial or a village residential
2 district within a township. Blakeslee, what is
3 that zoning?
4 MS. HAASE: Commercial.
5 MR. SINCAVAGE: Commercial right
6 now.
7 MR. ARMSTRONG: So say for
8 instance if you think it's a good place to have
9 like a village commercial district, that's when you
10 start considering, well, what's village. And a lot
11 of times you think village is shorter setbacks, I
12 think Mark, you mentioned that this morning,
13 shorter setbacks of the road, because if you think
14 back to historical villages, I mean --
15 MR. SINCAVAGE: And then I asked
16 Pat, instead of doing -- well, number one, Rob, to
17 get to your question, it's better that we have it
18 written in the zoning. Right now we are in the
19 process of doing the comprehensive. Right now I
20 think we are at letter G, after 2 or 4 months of
21 meeting now.
22 MS. HAASE: Since April or May.
23 MR. SINCAVAGE: Its' a lengthy
24 process.
25 MRS. LAMBERTON: The definitions
41
1 are where it is at.
2 MR. SINCAVAGE: And I agree with
3 that, but we are waiting to get the comprehensive
4 plan and if that's going to happen, we can put it
5 in at that time, but I see that being probably two
6 years off yet. So for us to get started now, at
7 least if we have some depictions, like Pat said,
8 try twisting arms a little bit, maybe we can get it
9 done.
10 The other thing, instead of
11 trying to change the whole SALDO for the whole
12 township, can we do an overlay district in
13 Blakeslee? Pat said yes we can do that.
14 MR. ARMSTRONG: You can do an
15 overlay district in Blakeslee, depending on what
16 you want.
17 MR. SINCAVAGE: Right.
18 MR. BAXTER: So there is that
19 one big piece at the corner. There is a sizeable
20 number of acres and eventually somebody is going to
21 do something with that.
22 MR. SINCAVAGE: And showing on
23 that future land use map there that we've been
24 working on, that whole red area, if we put the
25 overlay district in that whole red area in
42
1 Blakeslee --
2 MR. ARMSTRONG: The project that
3 was subdivided a couple years ago has 50 acres of
4 commercial property.
5 MR. BAXTER: Which piece?
6 MR. SINCAVAGE: Right down in
7 here. This is 940, this is 115. This is the park
8 now. This is that big piece right there. I mean,
9 we could get a big development there. It is in the
10 sewered area. They are not allocated a lot of
11 sewer, but they do have sewer capacity in the
12 plant.
13 MR. BAXTER: And the piece on
14 the corner.
15 MR. SINCAVAGE: Right. And
16 Jaime Keen has been talking, to his credit, about
17 doing a redevelopment of Blakeslee Corners,
18 bringing in federal money, state monies to do that,
19 redo that corner.
20 MR. BAXTER: That would be nice.
21 MS. HAASE: We have an
22 individual right now that is purchasing a lot of
23 land in the commercial industrial district in
24 Blakeslee. I foresee something happening in the
25 near future.
43
1 MR. SINCAVAGE: Right, because I
2 know the Christ of King Church I think is under
3 contract.
4 MRS. LAMBERTON: Commercial
5 industry.
6 MS. HAASE: Commercial
7 industrial.
8 MRS. LAMBERTON: Can you put
9 those specs on industrial as well or how would that
10 work? That's kind of different. That's pretty
11 much commercial, village commercial, wouldn't you
12 say? A warehouse is a warehouse.
13 MR. SINCAVAGE: You can make a
14 warehouse look --
15 MRS. LAMBERTON: Tastefully
16 done.
17 MR. SINCAVAGE: When you get
18 down into Lehigh Valley, the commercial buildings
19 still look nice. They are big warehouses. They
20 are still big huge boxes, but they look kind of
21 nice.
22 MRS. LAMBERTON: It makes a
23 piece of property worth more because it will
24 attract people.
25 MR. McHALE: Could this overlay
44
1 that you're speaking of have, with the character of
2 this overlay for Blakeslee, be able to apply to
3 like the Pocono Pines area also or would you have
4 different characteristics for that?
5 MR. SINCAVAGE: I'm only saying
6 Blakeslee for an example, but we can put the
7 overlay -- we can suggest the overlay be placed
8 anywhere we want to, all those village centers that
9 we talked about or it can be in all the red areas
10 there or all the red and I think -- what did we
11 call that Anne?
12 MRS. LAMBERTON: Magenta.
13 MR. SINCAVAGE: Magenta colored
14 area, which I think is business development, is
15 that what it is?
16 MS. HAASE: Borough village
17 center mixed use.
18 MR. SINCAVAGE: That's it. And
19 those areas could be overlaid with that
20 requirement. We can pick out the district.
21 MS. HAASE: I think that's
22 important as well because it's surrounded by
23 residential or residential development, so I think
24 that is important.
25 MR. ARMSTRONG: I mean, at the
45
1 end of the day, what an overlay district is, pretty
2 much it's a floating district. Typically where you
3 see the overlay districts is with towers, cell
4 towers or like airports. That's typically where I
5 have seen overlay districts, but it's not to say
6 you can't use them for the other.
7 MR. SINCAVAGE: I think it's
8 been used more in Monroe County for what we are
9 talking about.
10 MS. HAASE: What happens in
11 situations like 84 Lumber or Pizza Hut, where
12 generally their trademark is a color. 84 is blue,
13 Pizza Huts are red. What happens in situations
14 like that?
15 MR. ARMSTRONG: I'm not telling
16 you it's going to be easy. They have their
17 trademarks.
18 MRS. LAMBERTON: I've seen
19 drawings of CVS done to conform to the area if they
20 want to.
21 MR. ARMSTRONG: If they want the
22 site enough they will make changes. There is a lot
23 of unknown factors. I have seen developers walk
24 away. I have seen developers conform.
25 MR. McHALE: They can still use
46
1 the colors. It's just maybe they just don't use as
2 much of the color and it still draws your eye and
3 attention to it, you know, their Pizza Hut style or
4 whatever.
5 MR. ARMSTRONG: Something else
6 to consider, kind of along the same side but a
7 little off track, is your signage. I have not
8 really looked much at your sign ordinance, but this
9 comes into play as well because you have some
10 corporations that come in and they want to put
11 their building and their signs are big. I have not
12 looked at the ordinance. I'm not sure of the date
13 that you're sign ordinance was adopted.
14 MS. HAASE: There is a few
15 sections that need to be revised. The township has
16 always been very restrictive on the signage. You
17 definitely can tell the difference when you go to
18 our sistering townships. That's something that's
19 been a very big issue with this township.
20 MR. McHALE: With the larger box
21 building, larger retailers too, there should be
22 some proportion there to make it look proper
23 because when you go to the super center, for
24 example, in the Mount Pocono Borough, and you look
25 at the signage on that building or what's out front
47
1 compared to the size of that building, it just
2 looks disproportionate. So somehow it would be
3 good to work in something to have some leeway for
4 your discretion as you're viewing that elevation to
5 be able to say, no it doesn't look quite right or
6 yes it does and be able to work with them on it.
7 MR. ARMSTRONG: Just with
8 signage, a popular thing that I have seen in the
9 township that I have been at for the past year or
10 two, are these low level monument type signs. It's
11 a pretty popular thing for townships now adays.
12 MS. HAASE: One thing I would
13 ask the commission to consider, when we discussed
14 this previously, is electronic signage. That's
15 something that we really need -- we have something
16 that's extremely vague that's a big fear of mine.
17 I think I've mentioned it before to the supervisors
18 and the commission, we need to really do something
19 about that. Right now it speaks to it's allowed
20 for time and temperature, but I think possibly that
21 could be something that you could dispute.
22 MR. SINCAVAGE: Okay. So if you
23 see any buildings that you like, take pictures of
24 it. Just share it amongst ourselves or if you want
25 I can go. Just tell me where it is and I'll go
48
1 take a picture of it. I'll get ESSA and the
2 insurance.
3 MRS. LAMBERTON: I don't know
4 the insurance building.
5 MR. BAXTER: It's on 940.
6 MS. HAASE: On the right hand
7 side.
8 MR. SINCAVAGE: It was a remodel
9 of an old typical Blakeslee home or Pocono home
10 really. They did a very nice job.
11 MR. TONY NOVAK: A streetscape
12 drawing, so you know what you guys all have in
13 mind, what the town wants to look like.
14 MR. SINCAVAGE: The other thing
15 is maybe we can ask the supervisors and Pat to
16 start looking at an overlay district and
17 redevelopment. I don't know if they go together or
18 not, redevelopment and overlay district. I think
19 we can get the overlay district done much quicker
20 because we don't want to change the SALDO and the
21 zoning because we are in the middle of the
22 comprehensive plan. So we have to leave that
23 process go. I think we can get the overlay done
24 pretty quickly.
25 MR. ARMSTRONG: You're talking
49
1 an overlay for like village type?
2 MR. SINCAVAGE: Yes. Anything
3 else?
4 We'll stand adjourned.
5 (Meeting concluded at 8 p.m.)
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7 I hereby certify that the
8 proceedings and evidence are contained fully and
9 accurately in the notes taken by me at the hearing
10 in the above matter; and that the foregoing is a
11 true and correct transcript of the same.
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15 JOSEPHINE HOLLMAN, C.R.
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