Before
THE TOBYHANNA TOWNSHIP BOARD OF SUPERVISORS
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In Re: Regular Business Meeting
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Tobyhanna Township Government Center Building
State Avenue
Pocono Pines, Pennsylvania 18350
Monday, October 12, 2009, beginning at 7:01 p.m.
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PRESENT: JOHN E. KERRICK, Chairperson
HEIDI A. PICKARD, Vice-Chairperson
ANNE LAMBERTON, Board Member
DONALD MOYER, Board Member
JAMIE B. KEENER, Board Member
PATRICK M. ARMSTRONG, ESQUIRE,
Solicitor
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__________________________________________________________
PANKO REPORTING
537 Sarah Street, 2nd Floor
Stroudsburg, Pennsylvania 18360
(570) 421-3620
2
1 MR. KERRICK: I'd like to welcome
2 everyone here this evening for the regular business
3 meeting of the board of supervisors.
4 Pledge of Allegiance, please, to open
5 the meeting?
6 (Pledge of Allegiance was recited.)
7 MR. KERRICK: First item of business,
8 announcements.
9 MS. PICKARD: Okay. The fall cleanup
10 is running currently from October 10 through the 17th.
11 The hours are Monday through Friday, eight to four;
12 Saturday, eight to three; the same prices as last year.
13 That was advertised two times in the Journal, posted at
14 the library and the post office.
15 We have trick or treat hours Saturday,
16 October 31 from six to eight p.m. and Council of
17 Governments is advertising that. And I want to announce
18 two executive sessions on 9/30/09 from 5:30 to 5:45 and
19 October 5, '09, 5:30 to 5:45.
20 MR. KERRICK: That's it?
21 MS. PICKARD: That's it.
22 MR. KERRICK: We have no minutes?
23 MS. PICKARD: No, we just got them
24 today. They'll be on next month's agenda.
25 MR. KERRICK: Next item of business,
3
1 consider the treasury report dated October 12, 2009.
2 Total amount for board approval, $771,396.93.
3 What's the board's pleasure?
4 MS. PICKARD: I had a couple things on
5 that. We had on there some things we wanted to
6 reappropriate from contingency. We have other things --
7 bills that hadn't come in, but we wanted to appropriate
8 25,000 on the funds balance from contingency to cover some
9 of the road work that we were currently involved in on
10 Evergreen, the last week of Stony Hollow Road and going
11 back to February, we had approved a funds balance, the
12 Mack truck clutch repair of 7313 -- 7317.03, but that was
13 not on our minutes. I wanted to put that in for our
14 audit. So we were appropriating the 25,000 for those
15 items as well. Some of them are in the bill pack and some
16 of them we have post -- POs out on them.
17 So with that, if we could have a
18 motion to approve the appropriation from funds balance
19 from contingency and also the bill pack dated October 12
20 in the amount of $771,396.93.
21 MR. KERRICK: Is that a motion?
22 MS. PICKARD: That was a motion.
23 MR. KEENER: Second.
24 MR. KERRICK: Motion and second on the
25 floor.
4
1 Questions or comments from the board?
2 Questions or comments from the public
3 on the motion?
4 Call the vote. Jamie?
5 MR. KEENER: I vote in favor.
6 MR. KERRICK: Anne?
7 MS. LAMBERTON: I'm going to abstain.
8 MR. KERRICK: Donny?
9 MR. MOYER: I vote in favor.
10 MR. KERRICK: Heidi?
11 MS. PICKARD: I vote in favor.
12 MR. KERRICK: Motion carried.
13 Next item, solicitor's report.
14 MS. PICKARD: Oh, wait. I had one
15 other thing.
16 MS. PICKARD: Pat Lenahan is here to
17 speak about our nonuniform pension. I have that under
18 treasurer's report --
19 MR. KERRICK: Might have it under new
20 business. We'll do it now.
21 MS. PICKARD: No, I have it under
22 treasurer's report.
23 MR. KERRICK: That's fine.
24 MS. PICKARD: I have a secret code.
25 MR. KERRICK: Short? Sweet?
5
1 MR. PATRICK LENAHAN: I can make it
2 really short, really sweet.
3 MR. KERRICK: That's what we like to
4 hear. Thorough, though.
5 MS. PICKARD: I just wanted to
6 reiterate, last fall, before things got really crazy, we
7 had talked about moving from Legg Mason to the Roosevelt
8 Group and things have changed, and now Pat had some better
9 suggestions for us to lower the cost of the management of
10 our pension plan.
11 MR. PATRICK LENAHAN: Are you folks
12 ready? Or --
13 MR. KEENER: Yep.
14 MR. KERRICK: Yes, sir.
15 MR. PATRICK LENAHAN: As Heidi and I
16 just reviewed the pension account, and it's set up well
17 and it's actually rebounding well, your (inaudible) are up
18 slightly more than the 22 percent year to date, slightly
19 better than the -- than the stock market itself.
20 (Inaudible) up about 18 percent year to date. I wasn't
21 really coming to review the pension, but to talk about
22 changes.
23 The bottom line is we put this pension
24 account together many years ago. There's a lot of new
25 products available. I don't think there's anything
6
1 dramatically wrong with it, but I think you can do better.
2 There are new products that are available and pricing's
3 gotten much better than when you first did this business.
4 So I think you can save some money.
5 If you want to just look in this book
6 I handed out. If you want to turn to Tab 1, flip that
7 over. That's your basic -- this is our basic asset
8 allocation and I've given you your turn current asset
9 allocation and then the proposed asset allocation. It's
10 not really much of a change with the exception we might --
11 you know, I think we should consider adding a little bit
12 more to the commodity side or the alternatives side, and
13 that would be a jump from two percent up to the proposed
14 allocation of eight percent. That's just the basic
15 allocation; stocks, bonds, cash and alternatives or
16 commodities.
17 The following page is little bit more
18 detailed. We look at the stocks or the equities we own.
19 The current allocation is about 77 to 23 percent; 77
20 percent being in large cap stocks, large companies, and 23
21 percent being in smaller BID, also known as SMID.
22 The proposed allocation, we keep
23 everything the same. We flip the page over, you can see
24 domestic versus foreign when we talk about our equities or
25 stocks. The current allocation is a little heavy on the
7
1 domestic side, 93 percent, only 7 in foreign securities
2 and the proposed allocation raises the international and
3 foreign exposure a little bit from 7 to 15.
4 The following pages are fixed income
5 or the bond allocation. Currently you're about 85 percent
6 in short-term US treasury, seven years or less in duration
7 and 15 percent in global -- global bonds. The proposed
8 changes would be to put 33 percent of that money in the US
9 total bond market and 33 percent in tips or treasury
10 inflation, protected securities and 34 -- 33 percent in
11 global bonds.
12 The yield on your treasuries, when we
13 did this, seven -- five to seven year treasury, that's a
14 nice yield many, many years ago. The current yields on
15 some of these bonds are just north of two percent and the
16 management fee is also two percent. So I think that's
17 something -- you know, that's one of the reasons that this
18 is kind of telling us we need to take a look at this
19 account.
20 We -- flip over to Tab 2. What is an
21 exchange traded fund and -- the exchange traded funds
22 didn't exist when we first did this account. An exchange
23 traded fund is a basket of investments. So if you wanted
24 to buy healthcare, you could buy healthcare ETF for
25 exchange traded fund. It may own 50 or 100 different
8
1 healthcare stocks, something that's trying to represent
2 that sector. There are also different ETFs that represent
3 different countries. You can buy a France ETF, maybe have
4 50 to 150 French companies.
5 ETFs, compared to a mutual fund, which
6 is a -- which is an investment bucket that's run by an
7 active manager, the ETFs are significantly cheaper than
8 buying a mutual fund or hiring a money manager. The
9 internal fee on an ETF may be anywhere from five basis
10 points to half a percent; whereas a mutual fund, the
11 average expense -- even in a no-load fund maybe anywhere
12 from one to closer to three percent.
13 ETFs, there's a host of different
14 companies, Spiders, Vanguard, Eyeshare, Power Trust --
15 Power Shares, First Trust, many different companies create
16 the ETF in general. And an exchange traded fund is
17 something that's new since we first put this account
18 together. The reason I'm bringing that up now is I think
19 maybe you should include some ETFs or exchange traded
20 funds in your mix going forward.
21 I've kind of gone over the changes and
22 asset allocation and then what we need to do is, we need
23 to go back through and hire managers or find products to
24 fill those buckets. In other words, if we have some money
25 allocated in foreign stocks, we need to find an
9
1 appropriate manager, appropriate product for those --
2 those stocks.
3 In the next section I have a whole
4 array of -- of proposed managers. I think -- I think the
5 core domestic portion should be run -- it should follow
6 Dorsey Wright's research. Dorsey Wright -- I included a
7 page -- first page of Section 3, I believe it is, talks
8 about their research group. And as we flip it over, it
9 talks about sector rotation. Instead of having Legg Mason
10 manage your current stock portion, I think you should use
11 Dorsey Wright's sector rotation model. It uses ETFs, it
12 breaks down -- if you see where I'm going to try to point
13 to the section here, and see how it breaks the S and P
14 into a bunch of different sectors. All this product does
15 is, it wants to own the sectors of the S and P that are
16 outperforming the S and P itself and it wants to sell
17 those that are weak compared to the S and P.
18 There's not -- there's no a motion,
19 it's not a manager. It's just a -- it's strictly numbers,
20 so you don't have a manager that's pushing a stock back or
21 has a gut feeling that a company may come back. It's a
22 discipline and if you 're better than the S and P, we own
23 you; if you're weaker than the S and P, we sell you.
24 The following page shows the returns
25 of that product versus the S and P itself. In fact, if
10
1 you look at the individual in years here, you can see the
2 outperformance almost every year, not every year, but
3 almost every year. That's called relative strength. The
4 following page, where it says knowing what's in season or
5 relative strength, I just included that as a little piece;
6 if you want to read it on your own time to make this a
7 little quicker. Again, it talks about owning the sectors
8 that are outperforming S and P and selling those that are
9 weaker.
10 The next section, which would be a
11 small piece of money that would go into a small and mid
12 cap, or that SMID that we looked at in the asset
13 allocation in the first portion. Sometimes it makes sense
14 to own an ETF because it can save you a lot of money.
15 Sometimes it doesn't make sense to own an ETF. Sometimes
16 there's a management group that can outperform an index on
17 a regular basis; and quite honestly, they can demonstrate
18 that they're worth the cost. In small and mid cap value
19 land, this manager demonstrates, TransAmerica demonstrates
20 on a consistent basis that they can outperform the ETF
21 (inaudible) bond. So in this case I suggest using the
22 mutual fund as opposed to the ETFs.
23 There's some -- the following page is
24 just a piece from TransAmerica themselves. This is --
25 some key details. The next page, which has quarterly
11
1 overview from the Citi private client investment strategy
2 on the top here, that would be the discipline of the
3 product that we use to use to manage the international
4 piece. Just like sector rotation that I talked about a
5 few minutes ago, this is country rotation. It owns five
6 countries. It always owns five countries, but it looks at
7 a quantitative model and it wants to own five best
8 performing countries.
9 And if we go down -- if we skip -- you
10 know, float a few pages in there, it says -- Page 3, on
11 the bottom -- it's got performance written on the top. I
12 think one more page for most of you. Right there.
13 That'll show you its performance versus the international
14 index. There's outperformance in 2008, although it had it
15 down near the EAFE -- I mean -- I'm sorry, the MSCI or
16 EAFE index was down 41 percent. The product was down 38.
17 It did have a rough year. The years prior to that, the
18 E -- MSCI EAFE was up 9; the product was up 16. Prior to
19 that, up 19 versus a product up 28.
20 Again, that's a discipline. It
21 doesn't involve a manager with a motion and it continues
22 to show -- you know, consistently shows outperformance.
23 That, again, is ETFs; and, again, it makes sense in that
24 area to own an ETF product rather than hire a manager. I
25 couldn't find a manager with performance that was worth
12
1 paying for. In other words, this product beat the active
2 managers.
3 The next section is -- we have to do
4 something about the treasuries that I mentioned earlier.
5 And I already showed you the asset allocation. Instead of
6 85 percent treasuries, I think we should buy -- again, we
7 could buy AGG, which is an ETF or exchange traded fund.
8 It mirrors the total US bond market, extremely low fees.
9 The internal fees are only .24, you know, less than --
10 less than a quarter of one percent. The current yield is
11 north of three percent. The yield alone would be the
12 treasury product that you currently own. It's very
13 diversified and, again, it mimics the US bond market.
14 Another third of the money we were
15 consider -- we'd consider TIP, another ETF. It's treasury
16 inflation protected security. These are treasury bonds
17 inside this portfolio, just like what you did -- or do
18 own. But these bonds are adjusted every year for
19 inflation. So if we think we're entering an inflationary
20 environment or we could be, the advantages this fund could
21 -- somewhat takes, or this ETF takes the risk of inflation
22 out of the equation. Should give you better returns.
23 They only omit the pure treasury bonds themselves.
24 With the remaining third of the fixed
25 income money, Templeton Global bond, again, in this case
13
1 the management fee is 1.32 and it makes sense to have
2 these folks manage the money. They consistently beat any
3 ETF I could find for global bonds. I also included a
4 piece from them.
5 The last piece is a -- there's a
6 piece -- again, Dorsey Wright would give us instruction on
7 how to manage some commodities. The reason we own
8 commodities -- and if you turn two pages in, one or two
9 more pages, both of those will show you that. But
10 commodities have a very low correlation of stocks or
11 bonds. So the reason you put them in a portfolio is, it
12 reduces your volatility while typically enhancing your
13 returns. In fact, this data, I think, stops in '06 here,
14 but if you look here, if we went from 19 -- we took 37
15 years. There's only been two instances where both stocks
16 and commodities have both finished negative in the same
17 year.
18 So the point that we're making is, if
19 you have a bad year in the stock market, typically the
20 commodities and/or the fixed income side helps smooth it
21 out, they tend to rally when the markets are down. That
22 did not happen last year for the past year, year and a
23 half is the one time, and the last 50 where everything
24 went wrong at the exact same time. Didn't make any
25 difference if we owned cash, stock or bonds. Everything
14
1 got hit and we got hit hard.
2 So really what I'm throwing at you is
3 a ton of information. We went through it extremely fast
4 and it really -- you know, in front of a group like this
5 it's hard for me to really get into the meat and the
6 potatoes of things, but -- you know, my father, myself and
7 our firm spent a lot of time on -- on this. The package
8 that I've shown you, you know -- and if you have any
9 questions, I'll be happy to field -- it's very general
10 what I said. The performance should be at least as good
11 as what you have. It should -- you know, if you look at
12 past performances, it would be significantly better.
13 The costs are significantly cheaper.
14 You pay about two percent to have your assets managed, all
15 in -- this would be at least one and a half percent or
16 less. That saves you -- I think we -- you know, I did
17 some math the other day -- at least 28 -- 26, $2800 a year
18 annually just in fees.
19 So some -- you know, if you want to
20 sit down one on one or if you want me to come up and speak
21 to you at length, you know, as a group, I could do that.
22 But some of this I think you have to kind of just take my
23 advice on. And the bottom line is, you know, I think this
24 is a well thought out plan. You'd be very versified. We
25 have low cost. We'd have a very focused goal. I think we
15
1 should probably do reviews. If you did this, I think we
2 should sit down, review it quarterly and maybe come up and
3 do a presentation annually to you folks.
4 Any questions?
5 MS. PICKARD: If we want to make the
6 switch, what -- what would we need to do? What, would you
7 come --
8 MR. PATRICK LENAHAN: Probably it
9 would be one or two documents that I would need at least a
10 majority of your signatures on, if not -- this is a
11 group -- five is your group --
12 MS. PICKARD: Yeah.
13 MR. PATRICK LENAHAN: You're not --
14 MR. ARMSTRONG: I'm not a member.
15 MR. PATRICK LENAHAN: Right. You
16 know, if I can get all five of your signatures, that's --
17 I don't know how you folks do business. If I can get all
18 five signatures, that's perfect. Some groups, you know,
19 want three out of five.
20 MS. PICKARD: Well, if we were going
21 to make --
22 MR. PATRICK LENAHAN: I think the
23 clean businesses have --
24 MS. PICKARD: -- a decision, we'd need
25 to make it at a public meeting, whether we wanted to put
16
1 that on the agenda and take that out or get the
2 information from Pat or wanted Pat to look at something
3 differently. It's not something I want to let lay around.
4 MR. KERRICK: -- last year.
5 MR. KEENER: Basically we would
6 take --
7 MS. PICKARD: We didn't do it last
8 year.
9 MR. KERRICK: We didn't do it last
10 year. We talked about it.
11 MS. PICKARD: Then the bottom fell
12 out.
13 MR. PATRICK LENAHAN: Last year was a
14 tough year. I mean, because it was just -- you know, it
15 was the one time in many years, like 50 years, that
16 everything went wrong at the same time. So, you know, we
17 did -- we were -- you know, we didn't discuss it, which
18 was prudent, but we're finally doing that. That's not --
19 you know, we don't really have a good answer at what to
20 do.
21 In hindsight it might not have been
22 the worst idea to let it settle. We had a nice rebound,
23 nothing hurt us. I just think it's been so long since we
24 put this together, I think there are better products out
25 there than what we originally thought about and there's
17
1 certainly products that are less expensive than this --
2 this was.
3 MS. PICKARD: I like the idea of
4 reviewing this quarterly and having you come in annually.
5 I think that's important.
6 MR. KEENER: Yeah. If we could get a
7 quarterly report, you know, it would give us an idea and
8 maybe send a letter, here's how things are working and
9 even if you have other recommendations to keep an eye on.
10 If we could --
11 MR. PATRICK LENAHAN: There's a lot of
12 change here too. You know, originally it was a thing we
13 did quite actively. And I'm going back many years. I'm
14 trying to think if we -- I'm drawing a blank. We're
15 before Steve Seacheck (phonetic). Was anyone involved --
16 MR. KERRICK: Rich?
17 MR. PATRICK LENAHAN: Maybe. Many,
18 many years.
19 MR. KERRICK: Chris?
20 MR. PATRICK LENAHAN: My point is, at
21 one point pension was a good subject and we reviewed it
22 quite often. Then we had a couple manager changes and
23 then we had a temporary manager that we hired I think here
24 for a while and that's kind of when -- that was prior to
25 you --
18
1 MS. PICKARD: Stepping in.
2 MR. PATRICK LENAHAN: -- stepping in.
3 So that's kind of when we stopped staying on top of the
4 pension as much as we probably should. And then, quite
5 honestly, since Heidi stepped back in, you know, it's --
6 we've been looking at it but it's been such a traumatic
7 time that it wasn't appropriate to make change.
8 MR. KEENER: I definitely think the
9 distribution in the funds is probably where we need to be
10 and certainly reducing the equity side and increasing
11 commodities is going to make this a lot more stable. I --
12 do we want to look at it until next month and take action
13 or do you want to do something now? What are your
14 thoughts?
15 MR. KERRICK: Well -- my thoughts?
16 MR. KEENER: Yeah.
17 MR. KERRICK: I think that Pat and
18 Heidi have been working on this and I'm okay with this.
19 MR. KEENER: Ready to go with it?
20 MS. PICKARD: I feel comfortable if
21 we're going to review this and we can make a change, but I
22 knew we wanted to get like Mason out of there. We're
23 really getting hit with fees and right now the interest
24 rate's not barely supporting his fees.
25 MR. KEENER: Yeah.
19
1 MS. PICKARD: And I hate to let that
2 go, you know, so much longer. I mean, in the budget, in
3 our main -- you know, we're making a tenth of what we
4 usually were making. This is just strictly down for the
5 pension plan.
6 And the other thing probably next
7 month we'll have on our agenda is the resolution for
8 assets moving because our actuarial had reported to us
9 that we will need to start funding the nonuniformed
10 pension plan. Right? We usually get about between 45 and
11 50,000 from the state, which is declining.
12 We're also to make up this loss that
13 we've had. We will not have to do anything next year, but
14 the following year, if we don't do the assets moving,
15 we'll have to come up with $30,000 out of our general fund
16 dollars. If the assets move, we can drive that down and
17 then they just passed new legislation to make that 130
18 percent valuation, so we'd only have to cough up like
19 10,000 for the next couple of years.
20 So, you know, it's not the best
21 scenario from any direction, but, like I said, the
22 legislation just changed that assets moving from 120 to
23 130 to recognize that, you know, everybody's in the same
24 boat in the state.
25 MR. KEENER: You want to make a
20
1 motion?
2 MS. PICKARD: I'll make a motion that
3 we have Pat forward his changes for -- and I'm just trying
4 to think, to move from Legg Mason to -- I'm not sure. We
5 have the ETFs and the different managers. I don't know
6 what --
7 MR. MOYER: Just to change the whole
8 portfolio.
9 MS. PICKARD: To change the portfolio
10 as described in Pat Lenahan's report from Morgan Stanley.
11 MR. KERRICK: Motion.
12 Do we have a second?
13 MR. MOYER: Second.
14 MR. KERRICK: Questions or comments
15 from the board?
16 Questions or comments from the public?
17 Ms. Snell?
18 MS. SUE SNELL: How many employees and
19 former employees are dependent on this pension plan,
20 approximately?
21 MS. PICKARD: All our full-time
22 employees.
23 MS. SUE SNELL: Approximately how
24 many?
25 MS. PICKARD: Well, there's 13 to 15
21
1 in here now. Maybe 15 currently.
2 MS. SUE SNELL: And former employees?
3 MS. PICKARD: There's a handful. I
4 know right now we have Wayne and --
5 MR. KERRICK: Three?
6 MS. PICKARD: Maybe three.
7 MS. SUE SNELL: Twenty people?
8 MR. KERRICK: Roughly twenty people.
9 MS. SUE SNELL: And approximately how
10 much is in the pension fund right now?
11 MS. PICKARD: Pat, 500?
12 MR. PATRICK LENAHAN: I don't know if
13 I was at liberty to discuss this, but the pension is 524,
14 525,000 as of last night. To answer your question in
15 terms of withdrawals that are currently coming out, I only
16 see about 5,000 year to date --
17 MS. PICKARD: Four or five thousand --
18 MR. PATRICK LENAHAN: -- we're talking
19 like about one percent of the account value in terms of
20 money going out to help people using the pension right
21 now. At some point other folks will have to make -- you
22 know, use that as retirement money -- or there'll be
23 pension payments made to other folks, but I think
24 currently it's about one percent of the account value
25 that's actually used in pension payments.
22
1 MS. PICKARD: And it's a ten year
2 investment.
3 MS. SNELL: Okay. Thank you.
4 MR. KERRICK: Any other questions or
5 comments? Call the vote.
6 Jamie?
7 MR. KEENER: I vote in favor.
8 MR. KERRICK: Anne?
9 MS. LAMBERTON: I vote in favor.
10 MR. KERRICK: Donny?
11 MS. PICKARD: I vote in favor.
12 MR. KERRICK: Heidi?
13 MS. PICKARD: I vote in favor.
14 MR. KERRICK: I'll vote in favor.
15 Motion carried.
16 Thank you.
17 MR. PATRICK LENAHAN: Thank you,
18 folks.
19 So what I'll do is, I'll take action,
20 you know, I'll get the ball rolling. Some things may or
21 may not need a signature and I'll follow up with Heidi,
22 okay?
23 MS. PICKARD: All right.
24 MR. PATRICK LENAHAN: Thank you for
25 your time. I appreciate it.
23
1 MS. PICKARD: Thank you, Pat.
2 MR. KERRICK: Next item, solicitor's
3 report.
4 MR. ARMSTRONG: There are -- if I'm
5 looking at the right agenda, there are two things under my
6 report. One is the Act 167 Storm Water Ordinance. The
7 planning commission recommended the Act 167 Ordinance as
8 proposed and revised recently to be adopted by the board.
9 I don't know if you're in a position to authorize it to be
10 advertised yet, seeing how we haven't forwarded it to the
11 county or anyone else with respect to reviewing it. I
12 think it was forwarded to the board members, oh, two weeks
13 ago or so, then the people will have a chance to take a
14 look at it.
15 If you'd rather just tonight authorize
16 it to be forwarded onto the county and any other entities
17 that need to review it, we could do that, or if you're
18 comfortable with authorizing it to be advertised for a
19 certain date then chances are we're looking at -- we got
20 to give the county like 30 days, so we're looking at
21 December for the public hearing. Or if you wanted to wait
22 until we actually forward it to the county, that's up to
23 you.
24 MR. KEENER: I'd say go ahead and
25 forward it to the conservation district and the county for
24
1 review and then we'll take action next month to set a
2 date, a date for --
3 MR. MOYER: We'll discuss it at the
4 workshop.
5 MS. PICKARD: Is that where it has to
6 go, just the county and the --
7 MR. ARMSTRONG: I know those two for
8 sure. I'm not sure if DEP -- if we need to forward it to
9 DEP. I don't think we do. I'll confirm.
10 MR. KEENER: It'll go to DEP for
11 approval.
12 MR. MOYER: Yeah.
13 MR. KEENER: Or concurrence.
14 MR. ARMSTRONG: And the other thing
15 under my report is the Lost Trails conditional use
16 application. We need to schedule a public hearing for
17 that conditional use application. It was filed, I
18 believe, two weeks ago. You have 60 days to schedule the
19 hearing, which would probably take us, Heidi, some time in
20 November, I think. I don't know if the board has any --
21 MS. PICKARD: I was reluctant to put
22 it with our regular agenda time-wise unless we scheduled
23 it before --
24 MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, it's up to the
25 board.
25
1 MS. PICKARD: -- what we scheduled.
2 MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. If you want to
3 schedule it for --
4 MR. KERRICK: I'd have it separate.
5 MS. PICKARD: That's what I'm saying.
6 MR. KERRICK: We did this --
7 MS. PICKARD: Unless we wanted to do
8 it on a work session --
9 MR. KERRICK: A separate night for it
10 because it will drag into the meeting.
11 MS. LAMBERTON: I agree.
12 MR. KEENER: Or we can do it after our
13 work session?
14 MS. LAMBERTON: Yeah.
15 MR. KEENER: If our work session goes
16 until four, and we then go right into the hearing from
17 four to six?
18 MR. MOYER: We might be out of here by
19 midnight that way.
20 MR. ARMSTRONG: Whatever the pleasure
21 of the board is.
22 MS. LAMBERTON: That's all right.
23 MS. PICKARD: I don't --
24 MR. KEENER: We can continue if it
25 goes after six o'clock. We'll continue the hearing.
26
1 MS. PICKARD: So what -- if we have
2 our work session at 3:30, I hate to --
3 MR. KERRICK: In November?
4 MS. PICKARD: In November that would
5 be.
6 MR. KERRICK: I won't be here. Not
7 that it matters.
8 MS. PICKARD: No. We can't have that.
9 MS. PICKARD: We need John.
10 MS. LAMBERTON: Absolutely.
11 MR. KERRICK: You can handle it
12 without me.
13 MS. PICKARD: No.
14 MR. KEENER: I won't be here the --
15 December the 7th.
16 MS. PICKARD: We have --
17 MR. MOYER: We don't have 60 days.
18 MS. PICKARD: We have 30 or 60 days,
19 when --
20 MR. ARMSTRONG: We had 60 days from
21 the date it was filed.
22 MR. MOYER: What was the file date?
23 MR. ARMSTRONG: Two weeks ago.
24 MR. MOYER: Two weeks ago?
25 MR. KEENER: How about November the
27
1 11th?
2 MS. PICKARD: That's Veteran's Day,
3 isn't it?
4 MR. ARMSTRONG: I think when we were
5 talking at the work session, we were talking November, but
6 I can't find the time.
7 MR. MOYER: The work session?
8 MR. KEENER: November the 11th or the
9 18th. The other days are --
10 MR. KERRICK: I don't think we're
11 back -- no.
12 MR. KEENER: November the 18th?
13 John, November the 11th or the 18th?
14 Did you say the 11th's Veteran's Day?
15 MS. PICKARD: I don't know.
16 MR. MOYER: Maybe.
17 MR. ARMSTRONG: The submission --
18 submission date was September 30.
19 MR. MOYER: Take care, Pat.
20 MR. PATRICK LENAHAN: Take care.
21 MR. KERRICK: Thank you, Pat.
22 MR. ARMSTRONG: Basically, October,
23 November; we're looking at November.
24 MR. KEENER: Wednesdays work the best
25 for me.
28
1 MR. JEFFREY EVANS: That is Veteran's
2 Day. They don't move Veteran's Day.
3 MS. PICKARD: Yeah.
4 MR. KEENER: How about the 18th?
5 MS. SUE SNELL: Columbus Day.
6 MS. PICKARD: Yeah.
7 MR. KERRICK: 11th or 18th is fine
8 with me.
9 MR. JEFFREY EVANS: Columbus is dead.
10 He can't complain.
11 MS. PICKARD: We'll make it --
12 MR. KEENER: 11th and if we have to
13 continue, the 18th.
14 MR. ARMSTRONG: You can do it that way
15 if you want.
16 MR. KERRICK: Continue?
17 MR. KEENER: Let's hope not.
18 MR. MOYER: Yeah, with that one.
19 MR. ARMSTRONG: Well, I mean, you just
20 have to schedule the first hearing within 60 days. If
21 you're going to continue it --
22 MS. PICKARD: We understand the 19th
23 is the last day. We'll make it the 11th?
24 MR. KEENER: Yes.
25 MR. ARMSTRONG: November 11?
29
1 MR. KERRICK: What time? I think we
2 better eat first.
3 MS. PICKARD: I don't want to make it
4 too late. I won't be here.
5 MR. KEENER: 7 to 9?
6 MR. ARMSTRONG: Whatever the pleasure
7 of the board is.
8 MS. PICKARD: 6:30? Right at 7?
9 MR. KEENER: 6:30 is fine.
10 MR. ARMSTRONG: 6:30?
11 MS. LAMBERTON: Is that good?
12 MR. MOYER: Yeah.
13 MS. PICKARD: 11/11/09 at --
14 MR. KERRICK: 6:30.
15 MS. PICKARD: -- 6:30. How many
16 times -- does that just need one advertisement or do we
17 need to --
18 MR. ARMSTRONG: It's a public hearing.
19 It'll be -- it'll be two. And that's all I have under
20 my -- I believe that's all I have under my report.
21 Is there anything else from the board
22 for me?
23 MR. KERRICK: I don't think so. Do we
24 have anything else?
25 MR. KERRICK: Next item of business --
30
1 next would be new business. First item, future land use.
2 Do we want to --
3 MR. KEENER: Mr. Chairman, if I
4 could --
5 MR. KERRICK: Sure.
6 MR. KEENER: -- we've been working on
7 planning -- I guess we completed the regional
8 comprehensive plan back in 2005. Recently we've been
9 working on our future land use plan, which you see over
10 here to the left, which is -- includes the latest
11 revision -- revision from our meeting last week with the
12 county planning commission. Really what we've done is
13 taking it from a 40,000 foot level of the regional
14 planning looking at Coolbaugh, Tobyhanna, Tunk, Mount
15 Pocono and creating our regional comprehensive plan.
16 This then was our future land use
17 that, you know, specifically looks at Tobyhanna Township
18 and identifies what we want to be as far as land uses when
19 we grow up. We're also currently working with Carson
20 Helfrich of community planning to do our zoning and
21 subdivision -- subdivision land development regulations.
22 It just so happens that our state
23 planning conference was last week down in Philadelphia --
24 actually Valley Forge, and I ran into Mark Evans, a
25 colleague of mine that I worked with on a project down in
31
1 Marshalls Creek a couple years ago and it led me to -- and
2 in some of the sessions I was in, really led me to take
3 another look at what we were doing and to really identify
4 something that I think is missing, which is really
5 creating a vision of what we want to look like physically.
6 You know, we've -- we've looked at
7 some of the needs we have in the regional comp plan.
8 We've looked at, you know, housing, we've looked at
9 transportation issues, we've looked at, you know,
10 certainly our future land use, but physically what do we
11 want to look like? We want to maintain the character of
12 certain areas like Pocono Pines and some of the
13 architecture we have from some of the older cottage style
14 housing.
15 You know, do we want to look at our
16 commercial properties and say, hey, you know, let's give
17 some guidance to future land development projects that
18 helps them really fit into the Tobyhanna Township, Poconos
19 environment? And I think as we're working right now with
20 the zoning, we're preparing to establish dimensional
21 criteria that I think when we look at it, we don't really
22 define what we want to look at -- what we want to look
23 like.
24 Lake Naomi, do you have architectural
25 standards within your development?
32
1 MR. JEFFREY EVANS: (Mr. Evans nodded
2 his head.)
3 MR. KEENER: Similar to those
4 architectural standards, I think we should be looking at
5 what we can put together to provide guidelines for not
6 only architectural standards, sign standards, road
7 dimensional standards and really in -- you know, we were
8 driving -- Mark and I were driving through Lake Naomi and
9 you have streets that are probably, you know, 18 to 20
10 feet in width with curves that helps to reduce the speeds
11 and you don't have a -- you know, a high speed development
12 where people can actually walk down and not have to worry
13 about getting run over. That's the type of character that
14 we want to look at when we're establishing our design
15 criteria.
16 So what I asked Mark to do is to maybe
17 come to us and show you what he's done in some other areas
18 throughout Pennsylvania and New Jersey and, you know,
19 other parts of the country to give a little idea of doing
20 some potential visioning, community visioning, you know,
21 bringing people in and helping to engage them to define
22 what we want to look like. Certainly I think Blakeslee is
23 a huge opportunity to create a village center and, you
24 know, Mark can talk a little bit about that; but, you
25 know, even Pocono Summit, which we talked about looking at
33
1 a borough village mixed use type land use in Pocono Summit
2 of which we're just a portion of that.
3 You know, we've talked about in the
4 Pocono Lake -- what are we calling that crossroads?
5 Pocono Lake? Is that what we're calling it, John? The
6 Kerrick intersection? Locust Lake?
7 MS. PICKARD: Locust Ridge.
8 MR. KEENER: Locust Lake?
9 MR. KERRICK: Locust Ridge.
10 MR. KEENER: Yeah. I mean, that whole
11 area, you know, what do we want that to look like. To
12 really, you know, just -- I wanted Mark to give you an
13 idea of the process that -- that he's doing in other
14 locations. He's currently working in Barrett Township
15 doing something very similar.
16 So, if -- Mark, if you would -- again,
17 this is Mark Evans -- give them maybe a little bit of your
18 background and --
19 MR. MARK EVANS: Sure. Thank you for
20 the opportunity. Jamie, thanks.
21 The -- I am an architect and town
22 planner. For the last 15 years I've been involved in
23 physical planning of -- you know, shaping quality
24 architecture consistent with community values in
25 Pennsylvania communities. And so part of what I
34
1 believe -- you know, having been a visitor to your
2 township for many, many years, coming up here for
3 recreation, I know the character of what's going on here.
4 I have been working in and around the
5 county for the last six years and so my colleague Phil
6 Ellinger (phonetic) has been working in Barrett Township.
7 And I believe there's a lot of consistency of helping to
8 shape a land use vision, which is really, you know,
9 starting to talk about what -- you know, centers and
10 character. And in many ways your 940 corridor is your
11 gateway, it is your front door and the impression that you
12 establish at your crossroads really sets the tone for what
13 people expect as they move, you know, deeper into your
14 natural areas of your township.
15 So what I am here to talk about is
16 just sort of laying out a process, a visioning process of
17 taking from -- so that -- connecting the dots between land
18 use and zoning regulations, which I understand that Carson
19 Helfrich will ultimately be crafting. I believe there's a
20 commute -- sort of a participation process in terms of
21 testing ideas and visual. Let me just show you a few
22 examples here.
23 During a community visioning process,
24 getting people involved and bringing images that are from
25 the township and maybe a few images from some other
35
1 villages and hamlets from throughout the region and tie
2 them together. Traditional neighborhood design concepts,
3 typically where we're really understanding, what are the
4 building blocks that have made our hamlets and our
5 villages work throughout the state. Pennsylvania is one
6 of the states in the nation that acknowledges this time
7 honored traditional neighborhood design approach and that
8 is one of the areas of expertise that I bring.
9 And this is a similar example. We're
10 transforming highway corridors into village centers. It
11 can happen through effective visioning and through then
12 tying that vision to design guidelines and ultimately to
13 your ordinance. It's not just about imagery. It's about
14 then tying that down into design guidelines ordinances.
15 Those are a number of the examples where I've directly
16 been involved with that sort of visioning process that
17 ultimately results in ordinance recommendations. And I
18 would view this as a collaboration with your planning
19 consultant where you would be feeding community input and
20 feeding sort of the metrics, the dimensions that can
21 create quality places that really build on the character
22 that is your township.
23 And so these happen to be from other
24 places, but oftentimes creating walkable places that have
25 a strong sense of identity, a strong sense of character
36
1 and scale, takes testing and getting, you know, sort of
2 percentage votes on people saying if you present four
3 images, which of these images might be most appropriate?
4 So sometimes these -- this can involve
5 a workshop process where -- where we might, you know,
6 invite members of the public to participate in testing
7 ideas and typically this process really lays out in terms
8 of an initial visioning effort, which may be a sort of --
9 you know, set the framework, might involve a workshop or
10 two where one would look at some initial concepts. That
11 could lead towards a simple design guideline book that
12 might sort of tie the dimensions and ultimately that would
13 assist your ultimate -- any adjustments that you would
14 need to make to any of your zoning or SALDO districts.
15 Ultimately it's about connecting the
16 dots between your local initiatives and regional, Monroe
17 2020 countywide initiatives, and making sure that for any
18 of the four townships, making sure that it connects back
19 to your regional planning efforts for multimunicipality.
20 And then ultimately it's connecting between conservation
21 design, as well as the physical form of what would -- what
22 would happen.
23 The -- I think we're -- place making,
24 really, you know, we can begin to share images like the
25 ones you would see in an area where people could vote and
37
1 say hey, what would -- you know, what percentage of people
2 would prefer to see the image on the bottom right-hand
3 corner or the bottom -- upper right-hand corner and there
4 may be different opinions and we could have those be
5 reflected in the ultimate design recommendations.
6 Here's an example. This example right
7 here is where -- in some communities we've used keypads
8 and in some cases we've used simply handmade -- hand drawn
9 sort of ballots where people can vote on their preferred
10 images. Here's an example along the highway corridor
11 where if you look at the images on the left, this is a
12 commercial corridor with a number of underutilized
13 commercial buildings on the left. And the process that we
14 went through was one of -- of creating incremental
15 transformations with multiple property owners who might
16 get engaged in -- in filling buildings in and around the
17 existing street right of way.
18 This is an existing crossroads where
19 the municipality had placed a -- a gazebo, but it was
20 surrounded by a number of other, you know, not
21 contributing land uses and through the process of setting
22 design guidelines and setting community character, this
23 became an infill opportunity to bring some buildings to
24 create a more walkable, sort of pedestrian oriented
25 experience.
38
1 In a similar way, this is a grocery
2 store with a surface parking lot in front, 1960s, outmoded
3 and outdated, and the question this community was saying
4 is, what can we do to create a sense of place? And so
5 that ultimately became a transformation. Those images you
6 see on the left were images that the community had
7 selected and said, this is the character that we want to
8 see. We want to have walkable sidewalks, we want to have
9 a community gathering place.
10 So from that feedback that we got on
11 the left-hand side with the images that were most
12 preferred, we then came up with a recommended realignment.
13 This is something that, from my conversations with Jamie,
14 the Blakeslee area might be a candidate for saying there
15 are some underutilized shopping areas in that vicinity.
16 Maybe there's ways to reconfigure buildings to create a
17 quality sense of place and realign some of the businesses
18 in that immediate area and create --
19 So here's another view looking at the
20 shopping center in the distance and with the same types of
21 uses, the same grocery store, the same one story
22 restaurants and service businesses, a community green
23 became the centerpiece of this crossroads and that became
24 part of the vision that this community embraced. But it's
25 not just about one property. It's about a number of
39
1 individual properties, you know, through the design
2 guideline and zoning process encouraging a selective and
3 sort of incremental change over time.
4 This may take ten years for it to
5 materialize, but if you lay the framework, get community
6 support and then have your ordinances match that -- the
7 image on the left was one that was supported by the
8 community. This happens to be a community that Looney
9 Ricks Kiss architects has been involved in building in
10 Plainsboro, New Jersey. This is a mixed use infill
11 village center next to a 1700s crossroads, so that could
12 easily have been a strip shopping center. It became more
13 of a walkable district.
14 This is Historical Village of
15 Hartsville in Bucks County. That's the historic
16 Hartsville Inn in the distance. These are infill
17 buildings on the right-hand side. Another example, this
18 was an old car -- an old car dealer -- excuse me, a car
19 manufacturing parts location and this was a part of a
20 community planning process that my colleagues and I worked
21 on to create infill, in this case for some town homes
22 around the community green, as well as a bank and offices.
23 So the final -- the recommendation of
24 what I'd like you all to consider and decide whether you
25 want to move forward would be that typically we'd be
40
1 really looking at heritage character analysis,
2 understanding what is the character of your community,
3 photographing places that are admired and respected
4 within -- within your community and, you know,
5 photographing those.
6 The next stage would then be holding a
7 workshop or two, whatever we decide would be the right --
8 the right format to engage community stakeholders in what
9 would happen. Next we would then sort of get community
10 input and then through that community visioning workshop
11 that could then lead to a village center visioning, really
12 coming up with what's possible for Pocono Summit, for
13 Locust Lake Crossroads, for Locust Ridge area, what would
14 happen at Pocono Pines.
15 Jamie and I looked at a number of your
16 important crossroads and there are opportunities to set
17 the sort of vision in motion that could guide what happens
18 at those important crossroads and that may result in a,
19 you know, 12 page design guideline that could have images
20 and have dimensions that could then frame and guide the
21 next step in your zoning and SALDO process.
22 So that's the recommendation and we'd
23 love to get your feedback.
24 MR. KEENER: I think one of the keys
25 that he kept bring out is, it's really a transition. I
41
1 mean, it's not something that happens over night, and he
2 said 10 years. It could be 15, 20 years and I think if
3 you look at what has happened in the Poconos over the
4 past, what, 20 to 30 years, you know, there's been a huge
5 transition from what it was. And, again, that stuff
6 doesn't happen over night.
7 And I think -- you know, what I would
8 like to see is, we've invested so much in this planing
9 process that I would like to see some guidelines to help
10 with -- again, the picture really tells the story. We put
11 dimensional standards in a zoning ordinance, it really
12 doesn't tell people, here's what you're going to look
13 like. So, you know, again, I think -- I think it's a
14 piece that's missing in the process that we're in right
15 now. Like he said, it could be as simple as a 12 page
16 document that says here's what your residential areas
17 should look like, here's what your commercial areas should
18 look like, here's what your village centers should look
19 like, or this is what you want them to look like.
20 Okay. You're showing -- that's an
21 example?
22 MR. MARK EVANS: These are some
23 examples of some pages where the -- this could be -- I
24 mean, this is for another place. This would not be
25 what -- yours, but this could be photographs saying here's
42
1 what the community said they would like to see for these
2 kinds of buildings, and then it could have some
3 recommendations about the building types, what the form
4 might look like and then ultimately that can become pieces
5 of it, such as the dimensional piece could become
6 regulatory and pieces of it could become advisory to say
7 this is the community aspiration.
8 So if someone comes in as a
9 development applicant and you could show them this as what
10 you would like to see at this village crossroads, it may
11 help certain applicants to get some -- some ideas about
12 what Tobyhanna Township would like to see.
13 MR. KEENER: Mark, and I think one of
14 the misconceptions is that a lot of the national retailers
15 will absolutely refuse and fight fitting into the
16 community. That's not necessarily the case. There is
17 times when that will happen, but if, again, we have a
18 document that we can put in front of them and say here's
19 what we would like to see in our community and encourage
20 that, oftentimes I think we can get those retailers to
21 change their tune because they, again, are coming in and
22 want to be part of the community and want to be
23 successful.
24 MR. MARK EVANS: Looney Ricks Kiss
25 architects has implemented village centers in about 25
43
1 states across the nation. We have photographs of real
2 places that have been implemented where we can say CVS did
3 it, we can say Rite Aid did it, we can say, you know, this
4 grocery chain did it, this -- these businesses looked at
5 the trade-offs of where their formula fits and they do
6 adjust their -- their -- their norms when a community says
7 this is what we want the character of our community to
8 look like. And it doesn't always have to be a one size
9 fits all approach.
10 MR. KEENER: I mean, I understand
11 our -- our budgeting issue right now and certainly I know
12 it's not something that we can pull money out of our
13 budget to take care of at this point. I did speak with
14 Cindy from DCED and she antic -- actually, Mark and I had
15 lunch with her last Tuesday and she said that this really
16 could be a continuation of the planning process that we've
17 started and there is a possibility that there would be
18 grants depending on what happens with the state budget.
19 There would potentially be DCED grants that we could apply
20 for and, again, I would go after the county planning
21 office to see if there's grant funds available also to
22 continue the planning effort in support of what we've done
23 so far.
24 So, you know, what I would like to --
25 to do is to maybe ask Mark to put together a budget number
44
1 of what it might cost and then maybe we sit down at the
2 planning office and we contact Cindy and have a discussion
3 with her once she sees what is coming out of the budget,
4 the state budget, see what opportunities are out there.
5 What -- what's our timetable on the
6 zoning and SALDO? That's about a two year process.
7 MS. PICKARD: It was a two year
8 process. I mean, you had mentioned about leveraging some
9 of that as an SMS grant. Is that feasible?
10 MR. KEENER: That's -- well, that's --
11 yeah. That's what I was wondering, if we can't contact
12 the county planning office and see if there's money
13 available there. So --
14 Again, I think we would be remiss if
15 we didn't have something like this to -- you know, to
16 supplement what we're doing in the zoning and SALDO
17 regulations.
18 MS. PICKARD: Are we just targetting
19 certain specific areas in this, like Blakeslee and Pocono
20 Pines and Pocono Summit?
21 MR. KEENER: Well, I think there's
22 several themes that -- you know, and I think the borough
23 village centers are really the impact areas, but even some
24 of the other, you know, place making opportunities like
25 over here with the flagpole and the landscaping and the
45
1 monument, you know, some of those really do add to the
2 character of the community.
3 You know, you drive down 940 and you
4 look at some of the landscaping, you know, people have out
5 there, some of it is okay, but it's not maintained. And
6 really it's about creating incentives or, you know, your
7 neighbor's taking care of their properties and hopefully
8 it, you know, rolls right into the next property and, you
9 know, 30 years from now we have something that is the wow
10 factor. So --
11 MS. PICKARD: You had mentioned the
12 rehab of the Gray Fields or --
13 MR. KEENER: Yeah, Gray Fields, and
14 again this goes into how you set the criteria for that.
15 Gray Fields is, you know, basically redeveloping an old
16 shopping center into, you know, something that he had
17 showed -- go back to that one slide.
18 MS. PICKARD: These are monies for
19 people -- for developers that are looking to do some of
20 those projects in billing and --
21 MR. KEENER: Yeah, and that's again,
22 where it's a transition over time. You know, right now,
23 you know, is not the right time to be pursuing national
24 retailers or developers that are looking to, you know,
25 come in and do a big project. I mean, there's a lot of
46
1 projects that are sitting on hold right now, but -- and
2 did we know --
3 MS. PICKARD: They just cleaned that
4 up last week. Phil had me go out --
5 MR. KEENER: Yeah, what was -- I
6 mean --
7 MS. PICKARD: That was that old golf
8 course.
9 MR. KEENER: I know what it was. What
10 was the reasoning -- were they -- did they have any plans
11 or does anybody know why they did it?
12 MS. PICKARD: It was an eyesore.
13 MR. KEENER: I know that, and I mean,
14 I -- this is much better than what was out there, but,
15 yeah, in the village center, the one, the transition that
16 you had showed with the crossroads --
17 MR. MARK EVANS: Oh --
18 MR. KEENER: -- on the slide show.
19 MR. MARK EVANS: The slide show, yeah.
20 MR. KEENER: The one he had showed had
21 the -- the Acme.
22 Go to the one where you had the
23 crossroads. Right there you can see -- right even in
24 there is a PNC Bank on the corner.
25 MR. MARK EVANS: And -- and -- and,
47
1 you know, throughout this corridor there are many, many
2 existing buildings that are perfectly fine; however, by --
3 by sort of infilling in and around them, we can create a
4 greater sense of place, a greater sense of identity by
5 just looking strategically at street trees and utilities
6 and sidewalks and building setbacks.
7 Sometimes, you know, many ordinances
8 have 20, 30 year old provisions that have setbacks that
9 sometimes have unintended consequences and this community
10 had many of those examples where the unintended
11 consequences were that the buildings were set so far back
12 that everything that was in the front yard was cars,
13 parking. And this community said we want a mixed use
14 village center ordinance and that is -- that is what all
15 of these buildings then have ultimately conformed to, is a
16 mixed use overlay.
17 MR. KEENER: I don't have my pointer,
18 but just envision this being the square in Blakeslee, all
19 right? On the corner, you know, maybe the post office or
20 maybe this is the community center that's out there now,
21 the post office gets redeveloped into one of these
22 buildings. You know, there might be a -- a barbershop,
23 you know, an accountant, you know. Really it provides for
24 opportunities to create something that is attractive. You
25 know, you come in, say you're coming up 115, you know,
48
1 right now, look. Yeah, and that's what we have, a big
2 parking lot out front. You know, if you put buildings
3 here basically on the corner or even a community green,
4 you know, on the corner.
5 Again, it's the gateway to the
6 township. What do we want to look like?
7 MR. MARK EVANS: This -- many -- many
8 township residents here said this isn't what they think
9 of. This is their gateway entrance, but that's not what
10 they wanted and so this image here really became more of
11 the gateway look that they felt would not be appropriate
12 everywhere, but only be appropriate at the -- you know,
13 sort of at the center of -- of the village.
14 Any other thoughts or --
15 MR. KERRICK: I'd like to get on the
16 train, but I don't know how we fuel the train.
17 MR. KEENER: Well, and that's
18 understood. And I told Mark that -- that from the very
19 beginning that, you know, we don't have the funds to be
20 able to pursue this unless we were able to find it through
21 the county planning or through DCED.
22 But, again, this -- this doesn't
23 happen over night. This is -- this is a process and, you
24 know, something that, you know, we need to keep in mind,
25 as we're going forward with the creation of the
49
1 regulations, you know, how do we want those to apply and
2 what do we want those to really create? What vision do we
3 want to see when we're done with it?
4 MR. KERRICK: Mr. Miller, any
5 comments, planning commission?
6 MR. JOSEPH MILLER: Well, not
7 particularly right now. I just -- several years ago we
8 debated this at the planning commission somewhat and we
9 didn't know how you could dictate really --
10 MR. KEENER: We don't want to dictate
11 it. We want to guide it.
12 MR. JOSEPH MILLER: Guide it. How do
13 you do that? You say this is all you can build there?
14 MR. ARMSTRONG: It's a give and take.
15 MR. JOSEPH MILLER: I don't
16 understand. I understand the concept, but how do you make
17 somebody do that?
18 MR. KEENER: Right now we're dictating
19 ugly because we said you have to have your shopping center
20 set back 300 feet from the main road. So what's that do?
21 Puts cars in the front there, right?
22 MR. JOSEPH MILLER: The front.
23 MR. KEENER: So by us saying you have
24 a zero setback on 115, they put the building up front, put
25 the cars in the back. You know, again --
50
1 MR. JOSEPH MILLER: That comes under
2 zoning.
3 MR. KEENER: Exactly.
4 MR. JOSEPH MILLER: That's easy.
5 MR. KEENER: Exactly. If we want to
6 look like this, if we want to look like this, then our
7 zoning regulations, our dimensional setbacks are going to
8 change.
9 MR. JOSEPH MILLER: Yep.
10 MR. KEENER: Or at least we're going
11 to provide opportunities for them to change. If somebody
12 comes in and like, you know, I want to do this but your
13 zoning ordinance doesn't allow it --
14 MR. JOSEPH MILLER: Right.
15 MR. KEENER: -- they go to the zoning
16 hearing board and like, you know, we don't want to see
17 that. But if we provide the flexibility in our zoning
18 ordinance and we direct or guide the types of
19 developments, the types of uses based on the zoning
20 regulations, that's how we do it. And then we provide
21 these pictures to say, hey --
22 MR. MARK EVANS: And I think -- I
23 think the -- there are -- within the last eight -- eight,
24 nine years, this formed based code concept, is really sort
25 of the evolution of zoning to say what if we begin to look
51
1 at building types where the regulatory guidance is really
2 about dimensions. But if this is a -- an anchor building
3 type, setbacks still apply, like we might have; but
4 identifying the desired forms is a defensible and a
5 very, sort of, you know, now commonly understood idea,
6 that defining the forms, the elements, the building blocks
7 that make a village, you know, and have buildings that are
8 appropriately scaled -- you know, your zoning ordinances
9 presently say you shouldn't have a building that's more
10 than 400 feet long or some dimension like that.
11 This is an additional way to help
12 visualize what those forms should look like and get
13 community buy-in about what it should look like. It is
14 not telling people what to do with the color on their --
15 their -- their cornices and not telling people, you know,
16 whether they should have purple or pink on their windows.
17 That's not what this is about.
18 MR. JOSEPH MILLER: I mean, I don't
19 disagree with you. I think what you're talking about is
20 fine.
21 MR. MARK EVANS: Okay.
22 MR. JOSEPH MILLER: As long as you
23 can -- you know, the idea is to direct good people to the
24 community to do that. And, of course, zoning goes a long
25 way to help promote that. I understand.
52
1 MR. KEENER: Resident developer, do
2 you have any comments?
3 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: I probably had a
4 sign ordinance in the package. I think that's where a lot
5 of things start.
6 MR. KEENER: I agree.
7 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: I drive into a
8 community, I look at their signage. It tells me a lot
9 about how the community feels about itself because, you
10 know, it's real cluttered and everything and you showed me
11 this nice uptempo traditional planning and I'm looking at
12 signage and there's -- you know, it doesn't equate. You
13 know, there's an imbalance and I think it has to be in
14 concert with signs.
15 I mean, you're going have a hard time
16 convincing everybody that they, you know, want to have a
17 traditional design. Some people like that, maybe a
18 different twist of that, you know, as long as it's in
19 concert with the in-town kind of feeling. I'm not sure
20 that in my mind that that, you know, works totally for me
21 in downtown Blakeslee because it kind of like shows too
22 much into the intersection.
23 MR. KEENER: Well, and this -- he's
24 not saying that this architectural character is what fits
25 in Blakeslee.
53
1 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: No.
2 MR. JOSEPH MILLER: Yeah.
3 MR. KENNER: Just --
4 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: I mean, you had
5 an opportunity to hear a little bit more expansiveness,
6 but I do believe you can change orientation like shopping
7 centers and put parking -- you know, break up the parking
8 if nothing else. Get half of it behind and some in front.
9 That's more convenient for some, but, you know, there's
10 certain rules to that, as we all find out, people will
11 drive around the parking lot for 30 minutes looking for a
12 space that's closer so they can go in and work out.
13 I mean, I think it's a rule that
14 maybe, you know, get to -- refer to as a rule 400 feet and
15 if you ever drive by Lehigh Valley Shopping Center, no
16 matter what day you go by, there's always a circle of cars
17 that are pretty well dispersed all in a cluster around the
18 building 400 feet. They'll seek out something inside that
19 perimeter. But, you know, breaking it up in pocket
20 parking spots and parking parks, if you will, I think, is
21 the way to make things go.
22 As a developer, if I came to this
23 township and I wanted to do an infill project and you had
24 an opportunity to show me some of your visioning, it would
25 kind of give me a feeling that I could experiment with
54
1 things that perhaps other townships weren't that, you
2 know -- you know, sometimes you could stay in a brew so
3 long and it becomes a rut. And a lot of municipalities
4 have done just that. They don't want to try and take it
5 into a new direction.
6 I -- like you're talking about road
7 design. So many years we had PennDOT road, you know,
8 calculations and in developments you wind up with
9 thoroughfares that you could probably run the Indy 500 on
10 instead of, you know, making them more curved and linear,
11 naturally slowing the traffic pattern. I think those
12 things are important.
13 MR. JOSEPH MILLER: I'd be interested
14 too. I know a couple years ago when 84 Lumber went in and
15 out on 940 here, I think that's an awful thing, to tell
16 you the truth. But --
17 MR. KEENER: Mark thought it was the
18 most beautiful gateway into the Poconos he's ever seen.
19 MR. JOSEPH MILLER: But I don't know
20 how -- I don't know how you prevent that. That's --
21 that's the thing.
22 MR. KEENER: Well, they -- and we
23 talked about it. If you look at the aerial, you look at
24 the aerial here, I mean, all the residential development
25 really -- to be honest with you, if we didn't need
55
1 industrial and business development type space, I think it
2 would be a great place for a park.
3 MR. JOSEPH MILLER: Um-hum.
4 MR. KEENER: But, you know, we can't
5 take that out of the tax pay.
6 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: Even that
7 example, you know, the lake packs on the front of the
8 building penetrate all the way out to 940. That should
9 have never happened.
10 MR. KEENER: Right.
11 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: You know, three
12 or four trees in front of a huge lumber company to say
13 that that was the landscape plan, should have never
14 happened. I don't like to critique other people's work,
15 but, you know, it's a five minute drive-by. If you really
16 look at it, there's a lot more you can do about it.
17 But little things do make a big
18 difference. You know, if we're to break that up with the
19 proper planning and the light be oriented differently so
20 it, as you're heading towards the building or down the --
21 MR. JEFFREY EVANS: But I've seen Home
22 Depots in a village center where it wasn't unattractive,
23 so they were able to provide the service --
24 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: Well, sure.
25 MR. JEFFREY EVANS: -- but by planning
56
1 it into the town center, it's not the first thing you look
2 at. And, so, it's the 84 Lumber, but there's other things
3 to buffer it from the highway; so you still have that
4 service without having to look at that --
5 MR. MOYER: Right.
6 MR. JEFFREY EVANS: -- the way you do
7 now.
8 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: Just the way that
9 building broke up the electrical transmission in the
10 background. You know, by putting it there, you take --
11 you deprive people of the view of the things you don't
12 want to look at and put the more attractive things up
13 closer to you so you can absorb the elements.
14 MR. JEFFREY EVANS: This does work and
15 I'm seeing it all over where it is working.
16 MR. MARK EVANS: One of the things
17 that I observed, Sullivan Trail is an opportunity to
18 connect sort of your heritage, your trail and the -- you
19 know, it parallels so much of 940 that if --
20 MR. KERRICK: Sullivan Road.
21 MS. LAMBERTON: Old 940.
22 MR. KERRICK: Sullivan Road, not
23 Sullivan Trail.
24 MR. MARK EVANS: Yes, right. But to
25 really tie those together and begin to sort of weave
57
1 together part of your village crossroads and the
2 importance of that -- that road, I think there's ways to
3 tie together historic character of your community and just
4 so many remarkable homes and businesses and -- and -- and
5 railroad crossroads and things like that, you know, into
6 the fabric of each of these -- these four or five centers.
7 MR. KERRICK: Where do we go from
8 here?
9 MR. MOYER: Get some money.
10 MS. LAMBERTON: Get funding.
11 MR. KEENER: Mark, could you put
12 together a budget number and --
13 MR. MARK EVANS: I am happy to put
14 together a --
15 MR. KEENER: Just of this process.
16 MR. MARK EVANS: Yes.
17 MR. KEENER: And, you know, then we
18 can identify funding opportunities and, you know, again,
19 figure out, you know, with cooperation with Carson and the
20 zoning stuff.
21 MR. MARK EVANS: Okay. I will gladly
22 do that.
23 MR. KEENER: That way we can take it
24 up, we're going to be targeting budgets --
25 MR. KERRICK: It'll be on our next
58
1 workshop to update on.
2 MR. KEENER: Okay?
3 MR. MARK EVANS: Okay.
4 MR. KERRICK: Thank you for your
5 presentation.
6 MS. LAMBERTON: Thank you.
7 MR. KERRICK: Going to do some
8 business tonight?
9 Next item on our agenda, the winter
10 traffic services supplement agreement between PennDOT and
11 the township.
12 What's the board's pleasure?
13 MS. PICKARD: I make a motion that we
14 approve Resolution 2009 dash 021 --
15 MR. MOYER: Second.
16 MS. PICKARD: -- winter traffic
17 service supplemental agreement. We got the correct
18 mileage figures and numbers in. This is year four of five
19 of our winter services agreement with PennDOT and the
20 amount is $37,662.36.
21 MR. KERRICK: Motion and second on the
22 floor.
23 Any questions or comments?
24 Questions or comments from the public?
25 Call the vote. Jamie?
59
1 MR. KEENER: I vote in favor.
2 MR. KERRICK: Anne?
3 MS. LAMBERTON: I vote in favor.
4 MR. KERRICK: Donny?
5 MR. MOYER: I vote in favor.
6 MR. KERRICK: Heidi?
7 MS. PICKARD: I vote in favor.
8 MR. KERRICK: I'll vote in favor.
9 Motion carried.
10 MS. PICKARD: Just one -- to back up
11 with the future land use. Do we need to do anything to
12 move that forward now?
13 MR. ARMSTRONG: The future land use
14 map?
15 MS. PICKARD: Yeah.
16 MR. ARMSTRONG: If the board -- I
17 haven't really been at the meetings with respect to making
18 the final revision for the county, but that map, the
19 regional map which includes Tobyhanna Township, that's
20 pretty much all revised and -- it's not?
21 MS. PICKARD: No.
22 MR. KEENER: Tobyhanna Township is --
23 MS. PICKARD: Ours is.
24 MR. KEENER: Ours is revised. We've
25 actually made some recommendations that the planning
60
1 commission is going to take back to the Coolbaugh
2 Township and Tunkhannock Township --
3 MR. ARMSTRONG: The county planning
4 commission?
5 MR. KEENER: Yes. They're going to
6 take it back to them because they have to adopt -- we all
7 have to adopt the regional --
8 MR. ARMSTRONG: Right.
9 MR. KEENER: -- land use plan.
10 MR. ARMSTRONG: So until that
11 regional --
12 MS. PICKARD: Do we need to send our
13 map back again? We have to send it back to the same
14 party?
15 MR. KEENER: Yes, I think we need send
16 this to them.
17 MR. ARMSTRONG: If ours -- ours is
18 complete?
19 MS. PICKARD: Ours is complete.
20 MR. KERRICK: The dot in that.
21 MS. PICKARD: Except for the little
22 dot that's --
23 MR. KEENER: This little dot right
24 here?
25 MR. KERRICK: In the center there by
61
1 Locust Lake?
2 MS. PICKARD: In the middle.
3 MS. LAMBERTON: That's 940. That's a
4 route number.
5 MS. PICKARD: Oh, okay.
6 MR. KEENER: That's the route number.
7 MR. KERRICK: Oh.
8 MS. LAMBERTON: Yeah.
9 MR. KERRICK: I can't read 940 from
10 here.
11 MR. MOYER: 115?
12 MR. KEENER: Yeah.
13 MR. KERRICK: It's been bothering me
14 all night. I'm like what is in the middle of this?
15 MR. KEENER: This thing doesn't bother
16 you?
17 MR. KERRICK: I didn't see that.
18 MR. KEENER: That one doesn't bother
19 you?
20 MR. KERRICK: I didn't see that one
21 either.
22 MR. KEENER: How about these two over
23 here?
24 MR. KERRICK: Didn't see those either.
25 I can see that one sticks out. Sorry.
62
1 MR. ARMSTRONG: If Tobyhanna
2 Township -- if the board is satisfied that that's the
3 final for Tobyhanna Township, it would probably be
4 appropriate to forward that on to the membering
5 municipalities of the regional comp plan to let them know
6 that this is what you're going to be proposing and there's
7 going to be -- there's going to have to be a public
8 hearing to adopt the regional map.
9 And if those are the only changes,
10 that's fine; but if they want to make changes as well, it
11 sounds like you're making recommendation -- or the
12 county's making recommendations for them to make changes.
13 It's going to be most efficient to make all those changes
14 at one time so we only have one public hearing. I don't
15 have a problem if you want to pour your proposed --
16 MS. PICKARD: Should we do it now or
17 should we --
18 MR. ARMSTRONG: I don't have a copy of
19 that map. I'm sure --
20 MS. PICKARD: This is the only copy we
21 got --
22 MR. KEENER: This was just done --
23 MS. PICKARD: -- Friday afternoon.
24 MR. KEENER: -- Friday afternoon.
25 MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, I think
63
1 realistically you should just make sure --
2 MS. PICKARD: The county?
3 MR. KERRICK: Why don't we send it to
4 the neighbor municipalities --
5 MR. KEENER: Yes.
6 MR. KERRICK: -- and have them take a
7 look at it?
8 MR. KEENER: I think --
9 MS. PICKARD: We need to get it from
10 the county. You -- you got this one from the county.
11 MR. KEENER: Yes.
12 MS. PICKARD: So we kind of
13 circumvented us here in the office. So you want to talk
14 to Christine?
15 MR. KEENER: Because they did it at
16 4:30 Friday afternoon and they aren't open today so they
17 asked if I would deliver it, so I said sure.
18 MR. KERRICK: Very nice. Thank you.
19 MS. PICKARD: So we had a PDF?
20 MR. KERRICK: It's not quite straight.
21 MR. KEENER: We can ask -- ask the
22 county planning -- can't I ask the county planning to send
23 copies to the --
24 MR. MOYER: Send it to them.
25 MR. KEENER: -- other municipalities
64
1 and ask them to review it and also ask them to look at
2 some of the recommendations that we have when we were
3 going through ours?
4 MR. KERRICK: Perfect.
5 MR. MOYER: That's what I was going to
6 suggest, just have the county send that to them.
7 MS. PICKARD: Do we need a motion at
8 all to approve this to forward it?
9 MR. ARMSTRONG: You can make a motion
10 to approve --
11 MR. KERRICK: We're just sending it
12 on.
13 MR. ARMSTRONG: You're not approving
14 the map, you're just forwarding it on.
15 MR. KEENER: Just tell the county
16 planning commission to distribute this to the other
17 municipalities for review and comment.
18 MS. PICKARD: Okay. But when we do
19 have to send it out we have to give -- give it to all our
20 neighbors, we have to send it to Kidder and the school
21 district.
22 MR. KEENER: That's for the hearing.
23 MR. ARMSTRONG: That's for the
24 public -- that will be for the public hearing.
25 MS. PICKARD: We won't have to do
65
1 that. Okay.
2 MR. ARMSTRONG: No, because you're
3 not setting a public hearing tonight, are you?
4 MR. KERRICK: We're not at that stage
5 yet.
6 MR. KEENER: Send it to them to review
7 and then if they have any changes they want to make, they
8 could make their changes. Then when everybody's happy
9 with what they have, in each of their municipalities, then
10 we each have our own public hearing.
11 MS. PICKARD: Okay.
12 MR. KEENER: And that's when we
13 advertise with --
14 MS. PICKARD: With all three.
15 MR. KEENER: Yes.
16 MS. PICKARD: The full regional --
17 MR. KEENER: Yes.
18 MS. PICKARD: -- map. Okay.
19 MS. LAMBERTON: Fair enough.
20 MR. KERRICK: Next item of business,
21 John McElroy pre/final land development plan time waiver.
22 MS. PICKARD: We received an e-mail on
23 September 29 and Jim Hendricks from HRG -- we have a time
24 waiver until December 15 of 2009.
25 I make a motion we approve the time
66
1 waiver.
2 MR. KERRICK: Motion on the floor.
3 Do we have a second?
4 MS. LAMBERTON: I'll second it.
5 MR. KERRICK: Motion and second.
6 Questions or comments from board?
7 Questions or comments from the public?
8 Call the vote. Jamie?
9 MR. KEENER: I abstain.
10 MR. KEENER: Anne?
11 MS. LAMBERTON: I vote in favor.
12 MR. KEENER: Donny?
13 MR. MOYER: I vote in favor.
14 MR. KERRICK: Heidi?
15 MS. PICKARD: I vote in favor.
16 MR. KERRICK: Motion carried.
17 Next item on our agenda, Pine Crest
18 Lake, Phase II, Section 5, Lot A7 time waiver.
19 MS. PICKARD: I also have received a
20 time waiver from Neil DeLuca to extend the time constraint
21 to Section 5, Lot A7 until December 15, 2009, and I make a
22 motion to approve.
23 MR. KEENER: Second.
24 MR. KERRICK: Motion and second.
25 Questions or comments?
67
1 Questions or comments from the public?
2 Call the vote. Jamie?
3 MR. KEENER: I vote in favor.
4 MR. KERRICK: Anne?
5 MS. LAMBERTON: I vote in favor.
6 MR. KERRICK: Donny?
7 MR. MOYER: I vote in favor.
8 MR. KERRICK: Heidi?
9 MS. PICKARD: I vote in favor.
10 MR. KERRICK: I'll vote in favor.
11 Motion carried.
12 Next item, Dr. Vrabec letter of credit
13 reduction. There was some e-mails back and forth.
14 MS. PICKARD: We have an $8,000 letter
15 of credit. We were looking to reduce that.
16 MR. KERRICK: So you'd make a motion
17 that we reduce it to --
18 MS. PICKARD: I'm trying to --
19 MR. KERRICK: -- 62?
20 MS. PICKARD: If it says so --
21 MR. KERRICK: -- our work session --
22 MS. PICKARD: It's probably in there
23 but maybe reduced by 6200. That would make it 1800.
24 MR. KERRICK: I think it was 18.
25 MS. PICKARD: I'll make a motion that
68
1 we reduce the Vrabec letter of credit from 8,000 to 1800.
2 There's still an issue with the caliber of the landscaping
3 trees.
4 MR. KEENER: How are we going to
5 resolve that issue?
6 MR. MOYER: Yeah, what's the problem?
7 What's the problem with it?
8 MS. PICKARD: She planted little twigs
9 and the planning commission recommended that they haven't
10 grown big enough.
11 MR. KERRICK: Not the planning
12 commission, the zoning officer.
13 MS. PICKARD: The planning commission
14 recommended --
15 MR. KERRICK: Right. They
16 recommended, but the zoning officer measured and they were
17 half of what they should be.
18 MR. KEENER: And that's on the plans
19 that we -- that were approved, correct?
20 MR. KERRICK: Correct.
21 MS. PICKARD: I think right now
22 everything else was done and we need to get her -- her
23 $6200 back.
24 MR. KERRICK: It will cost us more to
25 follow it than if she'd just fix it.
69
1 What's the board's pleasure?
2 MS. PICKARD: I made a motion to
3 approve the --
4 MR. KERRICK: I don't have a second?
5 MR. KEENER: Second.
6 MR. KERRICK: Motion and second.
7 Questions or comments?
8 Questions or comments from the public?
9 Call the vote. Jamie?
10 MR. KEENER: I vote in favor.
11 MR. KERRICK: Anne?
12 MS. LAMBERTON: I vote in favor.
13 MR. KERRICK: Donny?
14 MR. MOYER: I vote in favor.
15 MR. KERRICK: Heidi?
16 MS. PICKARD: I vote in favor.
17 MR. KERRICK: Motion carried.
18 Next item of business, lot joinder,
19 Classic Quality Homes, Lots 4014 and 4015 Cedar Drive,
20 Emerald Lakes.
21 Did our zoning officer review those?
22 MS. PICKARD: She did review those. I
23 make motion we approve the Classic Quality Homes lot
24 joinder for Lots 4014 and 4015, Cedar Drive, Emerald
25 Lakes.
70
1 MR. KERRICK: Motion. Do we have a
2 second?
3 MR. MOYER: Second.
4 MR. KERRICK: Questions or comments
5 from the board?
6 From the public, questions or comments
7 on the motion?
8 Call the vote. Jamie?
9 MR. KEENER: I vote in favor.
10 MR. KERRICK: Anne?
11 MS. LAMBERTON: I vote in favor.
12 MR. KERRICK: Donny?
13 MR. MOYER: I vote in favor.
14 MR. KERRICK: Heidi?
15 MS. PICKARD: I vote in favor.
16 MR. KERRICK: I'll vote in favor.
17 Next item, lot joinder, Christian
18 Charity Foundation, Lot 27 and 28, Shawnee Drive,
19 Arrowhead Lakes. That was reviewed as well?
20 MS. PICKARD: Correct. I'll make a
21 motion we approve the Christian Charity Foundation lot
22 joinder, Lot 27 and 28, Shawnee Drive, Arrowhead Lakes.
23 MR. KERRICK: Do we have a second?
24 MR. MOYER: Second.
25 MR. KERRICK: Motion and second.
71
1 Questions or comments?
2 Questions or comments on the motion
3 from the public?
4 Call the vote. Jamie?
5 MR. KEENER: I vote in favor.
6 MR. KERRICK: Anne?
7 MS. LAMBERTON: I vote in favor.
8 MR. KERRICK: Donny?
9 MR. MOYER: I vote in favor.
10 MR. KERRICK: Heidi?
11 MS. PICKARD: I vote in favor.
12 MR. KERRICK: I'll vote in favor,
13 motion carred.
14 Next item on our agenda, the retiming
15 of traffic signals at Route 940 and Long Pond intersection
16 and Route 940 and I-380 northbound ramps intersection,
17 basically just want to put in the minutes. It was
18 approved by PennDOT and has been done.
19 MS. PICKARD: And we have plans that I
20 think you just need to sign you and I --
21 MR. KERRICK: They'll go back to
22 PennDOT.
23 MS. PICKARD: I'll make a motion we
24 approve the traffic signal retiming plan.
25 MR. KERRICK: Do we have a second?
72
1 MR. KEENER: Second.
2 MR. KERRICK: Motion and second.
3 Questions or comments?
4 Questions or comments from the public
5 on the motion?
6 Call the vote. Jamie?
7 MR. KEENER: I vote in favor.
8 MR. KERRICK: Anne?
9 MS. LAMBERTON: I vote in favor.
10 MR. KERRICK: Donny?
11 MR. MOYER: I vote in favor.
12 MR. KERRICK: Heidi?
13 MS. PICKARD: I vote in favor.
14 MR. KERRICK: I'll vote in favor.
15 Motion carried.
16 Next item, Select Security Services
17 Agreement for the emergency services building. The only
18 change that we did was looking for a five year term.
19 Heidi and I thought a three year term reviewed annually
20 between Select and us, Tobyhanna Township, would be
21 appropriate, so that's what we crossed off and put on
22 the --
23 MS. PICKARD: They said that was fine.
24 MR. KERRICK: Motion to approve?
25 MR. KEENER: So moved.
73
1 MR. KERRICK: Do we have a second?
2 MR. MOYER: Second.
3 MR. KERRICK: Motion and second.
4 Questions or comments?
5 MS. LAMBERTON: That's fair enough.
6 MR. KERRICK: Questions or comments
7 from the public?
8 Jamie?
9 MR. KEENER: I vote in favor.
10 MR. KERRICK: Anne?
11 MS. LAMBERTON: I vote in favor.
12 MR. KERRICK: Donny?
13 MR. MOYER: I vote in favor.
14 MR. KERRICK: Heidi?
15 MS. PICKARD: I vote in favor.
16 MR. KERRICK: I vote in favor. Motion
17 carried.
18 Do we have any mention of --
19 MS. PICKARD: We have some in our
20 packet where the soil scientist is coming out tomorrow.
21 They were looking for a conditional approval based on the
22 information we had subject to the findings of the soil
23 scientist. This is a repair request. Currently the well
24 is under the house and only 40 feet from the
25 malfunctioning septic system. They're looking for a
74
1 waiver from the board for the 85 feet, which is allowable
2 in the code, to 85 feet. This would be contingent upon
3 the review from the soil scientist tomorrow.
4 MR. KERRICK: Would the board be
5 willing to make a motion contingent upon the soil
6 scientist's report so we don't hold the applicant up?
7 MS. LAMBERTON: Absolutely.
8 MR. KEENER: Yeah. My question is,
9 though, on the vacant parcel next to it, has there been
10 septic testing on that or has anybody looked at what that
11 might do to the development of that lot?
12 MR. MOYER: Vacant is -- that's the
13 park there, isn't it? The ball field?
14 MR. KERRICK: No --
15 MR. MOYER: Is there a lot between
16 them?
17 MR. KERRICK: I think there's one lot.
18 We own the next lot up. The township owns the next lot
19 up, but I believe there's one --
20 MR. MOYER: In between it?
21 MR. KERRICK: -- in between it. They
22 did some testing on that particular -- a few years ago. I
23 don't know the outcome or where it was located.
24 MR. KEENER: Okay. All right. I'll
25 make a motion we approve the waiver of the isolation
75
1 distance pending verification that that septic system
2 location works.
3 MS. PICKARD: I'll second the motion.
4 MR. KERRICK: Motion and second.
5 Questions or comments from the board?
6 Questions or comments from the public
7 on the motion?
8 For the record, it's Mohammed Sarker.
9 MS. PICKARD: Yeah.
10 MR. KERRICK: Is that it? That's the
11 applicant's name and it's on Locust Ridge Road.
12 Call the vote. Jamie?
13 MR. KEENER: I vote in favor.
14 MR. KERRICK: Anne?
15 MS. LAMBERTON: I vote in favor.
16 MR. KERRICK: Donny?
17 MR. MOYER: I vote in favor.
18 MR. KERRICK: Heidi?
19 MS. PICKARD: I vote in favor.
20 MR. KERRICK: I'll vote in favor.
21 Next item on our agenda, Keswick
22 Pointe, revision to Phase I PRD.
23 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: On -- you should
24 all have in front of you a letter dated October 9
25 addressing several items from the township engineer,
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1 Mr. McHale. Just by way of a quick review, we have
2 submitted numerous plans that are listed in his letter
3 that needed to be revised largely to take care of some of
4 the past issues of the front road profile entering the
5 project. Also the transition from gravity sewer to a low
6 pressure system and all the redesign that was required.
7 We have had plans submitted earlier
8 and we had come before you on the realignment and on
9 October the 5th we had a meeting here in the township. I
10 thank Bob and John for being at that meeting. We focused
11 with our engineers, township engineer and our excavator
12 and myself on all the remaining issues and pretty much
13 determined how they would be chosen. That was all
14 implemented in a short period of time and turned around by
15 our engineers and back to Bob for review.
16 So at this point, you know, Bob is
17 asking for some things to go forward. Number one is a
18 construction schedule, which we will provide him with, as
19 to when we plan on actually installing the sewer lines so
20 that he can put a schedule together and then come in and
21 inspect from time to time our progress. We also came upon
22 the issue of the overcontrol from the manhole that we're
23 going to enter the township system and we're concerned
24 that we may have odor coming from that manhole, so we came
25 up with a system. We took -- discussed it, came up with a
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1 system that will filter that odor through a charcoal
2 filter.
3 At first we thought that would be
4 located on top of the manhole, but we did find something
5 will actually fit inside the manhole, but we'll have to
6 change the manhole lid to one that's perforated so it will
7 allow the air to escape. So hopefully it works because
8 there will no longer be a sealed lid, but I believe it
9 will work and we've exchanged all the information about
10 that.
11 In addition to that, we've talked
12 about the planning and this mostly was done so that we
13 could size the mains correctly. I mean, we looked at what
14 we might do on our two commercial properties that are on
15 the front edge instead of -- we ran the system out, what
16 we need to make sure the lines were sized properly and
17 that may -- you know, in the future will result in two
18 additional connections there at the time that we do those
19 land development plans.
20 Additionally we're running a trench
21 right by our amenity area leading down to the sewer
22 manhole and we thought it was prudent to run additional
23 lateral from that point into where we're going to have
24 amenities. Should we ever wish to put a bathroom at the
25 amenity area, we'll have a sewer connection, at which time
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1 we'll request an EDU. We don't know that we're going to
2 do that. It might be several years, but it didn't make
3 sense to dig the whole place up to run that lateral.
4 So to that end we talked about those
5 issues. The difference here, even with the other EDUs, we
6 would not exceed the required amount to revise our DEP
7 manual as it has been supplied. Bob made comments about
8 our phasing and we will that put on the plan. I read his
9 comment, which leads me to believe that that was something
10 missed by our engineer because he stated in a meeting that
11 we had that our engineer should put on the plan of Phase
12 III, that that part of the sewer was being constructed in
13 and part of Phase 1-A. In order to make the system work,
14 that has to be installed.
15 The fifth comment here, there was a
16 detail that he's asked for that will be added to the plan.
17 The operational and maintenance manuals and agreements
18 that we've provided to not only the homeowners but the
19 association, the township and the township engineer. I
20 reported to him that those items will be forthcoming. We
21 are just about ready to wrap up our agreements with the
22 company.
23 This leads to B, C and D on this list
24 here of No. 6. He mentions the design analysis is done
25 with the Warren's publisher, and that's because I
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1 instructed our engineers that that's the one we were going
2 to use. We're pretty much concluded in our negotiations
3 and the gentleman who's currently maintaining your
4 treatment plant would probably be the person operating our
5 system and our pumps.
6 I've modified, at my request to them,
7 their service agreement, because I think that -- little
8 bit out for the homeowner, so they were acceptant of those
9 changes. Barnes has changed their warranty as it relates
10 to our end-user so that there's a connection there between
11 the pump warranty, for the warranty that we're going to
12 give somebody, the service agreement that will be given to
13 them by the service provider and when those people will
14 interphase, so that there's no disconnect for over two
15 years from the time someone would require -- pump through
16 their ownership.
17 And in that there's information about
18 the maintenance and service agreement that will also be
19 provided that we've already discussed. Most of that's
20 pretty well complete and maybe we can get a copy of that
21 to Bob, even well before we would be putting in any pump.
22 The access agreement, I guess I have a
23 question for Patrick on this, and that is, how to best
24 give the township the right of way, if you will, to enter
25 a lot for emergency purposes. I mean, I can put it in the
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1 covenants of the plan, I can put it in our protective
2 covenants. We can put it on, you know, the section plans
3 as, you know, a covenant. I just don't know where you
4 would prefer to see that being granted.
5 MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. It would
6 definitely be a declaration of covenants. You're talking
7 about No. 6-D? Or no, you're talking about --
8 MR. KEENER: 7.
9 MR. MOYER: 7.
10 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: No. 7.
11 MR. ARMSTRONG: 7 in general.
12 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: His concern is
13 that if a township representative had to enter the
14 property. I would image if you had a malfunctioning pump,
15 I don't expect that the guys that we have servicing are
16 going to play that role and they will have authority by
17 virtue of their agreement to enter the property to turn
18 off a pump or something that's malfunctioning.
19 MR. ARMSTRONG: There's nothing shown
20 on the plans, I'm assuming, per lot. There's no easements
21 shown on the land -- or on the plan.
22 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: Not quite that
23 general, no.
24 MR. ARMSTRONG: Okay. Okay.
25 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: I mean, it's --
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1 it has to be, I think, somewhat specific. I don't know
2 that people would feel good about the township having cart
3 blanche --
4 MR. KEENER: Right.
5 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: -- to enter their
6 property, to walk on their deck and look in the windows.
7 MR. KEENER: Maybe we can Google it
8 and get right down on the deck --
9 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: I'm amazed at how
10 many people do that. Even some landscape providers now
11 will give you a quote by Googling your property --
12 MR. MOYER: Um-hum.
13 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: -- and shrubbery.
14 True Green, they don't come out and look anymore. They
15 get right on Google. They give you a quote. It's scary.
16 MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, we can do it by
17 some kind of a declaration of covenants, but I'll -- we'll
18 talk.
19 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: Yeah, if you have
20 some thoughts on it. I mean, I would make it redundant
21 wherever I can. Like in our informational packets, I want
22 to disclose to the owner that here's what we're doing with
23 this, the gentleman who's going to, you know, maintain
24 your pumps.
25 MR. ARMSTRONG: Right.
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1 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: At the same time
2 we want you to know that we've granted the township the
3 right to enter the property should there be an emergency.
4 MR. KERRICK: I don't know if we even
5 need it.
6 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: I don't think you
7 do either because you're saying that's really their
8 problem and I don't know that you want to walk into that
9 can of worms. Because if somebody -- you know, no good
10 deed goes unrewarded.
11 MR. KERRICK: We've been called in
12 other areas that we have the pumps now and usually the
13 homeowner's there. I don't really think -- I'll talk to
14 Bob, but, I mean, I wasn't aware he was going to put that
15 on there. The only thing we're responsible for is the
16 main.
17 MR. KEENER: Yeah. I think --
18 MR. ARMSTRONG: I think -- let me --
19 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: I would suggest
20 your experts to call our guy and let him be the one
21 entering the property.
22 MR. KEENER: Yeah, we'll take it to
23 the property, to the right of way -- into the right of way
24 and it's private from there on.
25 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: I can also tell
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1 you, we're talking -- I think I mentioned this before.
2 We're talking to Peabody and Barnes people. They now have
3 some technology, maybe like GPS, that they can actually
4 put a transponder or something onto the unit and if
5 there's a problem they'll send out a signal and they'll
6 get it, if there's something wrong with that pump.
7 So, you know, sometimes the technology
8 might take care of that for you.
9 MR. KERRICK: Oh, I see.
10 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: We haven't got
11 the price on that. I'm sure it's an add-on, but --
12 You'll advise me on that one, but in
13 the meantime --
14 MR. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, I guess there's
15 an O and M agreement required because now there's the
16 grinder pump proposed.
17 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: Yeah, we have
18 an -- you know, we have an operation's agreement we're
19 putting together with them as a service.
20 MR. ARMSTRONG: Okay. Okay.
21 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: But I guess the
22 real issue is, if the township and their representatives
23 want the ability to enter the property by some, you know,
24 covenant, I just need to know the mechanics of that.
25 Construction cost estimate. I've
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1 advised -- our excavator now is working on that because
2 they were waiting for us to tie down the components of the
3 tie in, which we took care of at the meeting and now had
4 been put on paper for Bob and he's already -- now we're
5 costing that as it relates to the differential between our
6 gravity system and a pressure system, and I'm hoping that
7 that will allow us to maybe have some savings for partial
8 (inaudible) letter. But, you know, that remains to be
9 seen.
10 Based on, you know, this being on Roy,
11 Bob has made a recommendation here that we approve the
12 revised final plan to Phase I of Keswick Pointe, which
13 incorporated all of these things. And, of course, once
14 that's done, I'll ask which of these sheets, if any, he
15 needs have put on record to revise those that are already
16 of record.
17 MR. KEENER: I make a motion we
18 approve revised final plan, Phase I for Keswick Pointe PRD
19 subject to the items on Bob McHale's letter dated October
20 9, 2009, and review by our solicitor of any and all
21 agreements that are identified in the same.
22 MR. KERRICK: Motion. Do we have a
23 second?
24 MS. LAMBERTON: I second it.
25 MR. KERRICK: Motion and second.
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1 Questions or comments?
2 Questions or comments from the public?
3 Call the vote. Jamie?
4 MR. KEENER: I vote in favor.
5 MR. KERRICK: Anne?
6 MS. LAMBERTON: I vote in favor.
7 MR. KERRICK: Donny?
8 MR. MOYER: I vote in favor.
9 MR. KERRICK: Heidi?
10 MS. PICKARD: I vote in favor.
11 MR. KERRICK: I'll vote in favor.
12 Motion carried.
13 Thank you, Mr. Hannig.
14 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: This is a
15 sideline for those of you who don't visit the project. I
16 didn't bring any photos tonight, perhaps I should have,
17 but we now have a 300 some thousand gallon water tank in
18 place and bolted down because it's empty, I don't want it
19 to blow away and wind up in somebody else's neighborhood.
20 MR. KEENER: It will wind up on top of
21 township property up on the hill and we can provide water
22 to everybody in Blakeslee.
23 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: Well, that's
24 there, and we have the foundations in awaiting the arrival
25 of our pump station, our well house, all modularized and
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1 everything already premounted. All the the pipes have
2 been ran under the various slabs and under the tank where
3 you see all this, but the first gallon of water coming out
4 of the system is going to cost more than your finest glass
5 of wine you've ever had, believe me.
6 MR. KERRICK: Thank you, Mr. Hannig.
7 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: My pleasure.
8 Thank you.
9 MR. KERRICK: Next item on our agenda,
10 TEC PTO request for waiver for their festival permit fee.
11 What's the board's pleasure?
12 MR. KEENER: I make a motion we
13 approve the waiver request for the festival permit fee for
14 TEC.
15 MR. KERRICK: Motion. Do we have a
16 second?
17 MS. LAMBERTON: I'll second that.
18 MR. KERRICK: Motion and second.
19 Questions or comments?
20 Questions or comments from the public
21 on the motion?
22 Call the vote. Jamie?
23 MR. KEENER: I vote in favor.
24 MR. KERRICK: Anne?
25 MS. LAMBERTON: I vote in favor.
87
1 MR. KERRICK: Donny?
2 MR. MOYER: I vote in favor.
3 MR. KERRICK: Heidi?
4 MS. PICKARD: I vote in favor.
5 MR. KERRICK: I'll vote in favor.
6 Motion carried.
7 Pat, do you have anything else?
8 MR. ARMSTRONG: Brief executive
9 litigation, but nothing --
10 MR. KERRICK: Okay. Anyone else from
11 the board?
12 MR. KEENER: Yes. October the 25th,
13 the canine 5K walk to benefit our canines for Pocono
14 Mountain Regional Police. If you'd like to walk, it would
15 certainly be appreciated, that you'd attend and walk in
16 support of our two new police dogs that we need to replace
17 our current ones that are going to be retiring.
18 So, October 25, I think it's -- what,
19 eight a.m.?
20 MR. KERRICK: I think so.
21 MR. KEENER: Okay.
22 MR. ARMSTRONG: What's the life span
23 on a dog? Is it -- I mean --
24 MR. KEENER: There's six --
25 MR. ARMSTRONG: -- job span?
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1 MR. KEENER: Six to eight years old --
2 MR. KERRICK: Six to eight years.
3 MR. KEENER: -- when they're -- when
4 they're to be retired. They get them when they're puppies
5 and they train them to the point that they're able to take
6 them out on duty, and then anywhere from six to eight
7 years old, then they have to be retired.
8 MR. ARMSTRONG: Hmm.
9 MR. KERRICK: What's a dog's life year
10 compared to ours? Seven?
11 MS. PICKARD: Seven.
12 MR. KEENER: Seven.
13 MR. KERRICK: Fifty-six? Okay.
14 MR. KEENER: Yeah, it's about time to
15 retire, but they've been very good dogs and have -- I
16 don't know if you saw the article in the paper last week,
17 in the Pocono Record there's a very good article about
18 what they've done, accomplishments they've had.
19 MR. MOYER: Yeah, I read it.
20 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: They get up for
21 adoption or --
22 MR. KEENER: They will be adopted by
23 their handlers.
24 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: Oh, really?
25 MR. KEENER: They have -- they're
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1 going to keep them. I mean, they -- basically they're
2 their dogs. They sit --
3 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: Any kind of
4 pension?
5 MR. KEENER: -- sit at the back door
6 waiting for them to get home.
7 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: Do they got a
8 pension?
9 MR. KEENER: Milk bones.
10 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: Life supply of
11 milk bones.
12 MR. KERRICK: Unfortunately they don't
13 last long after that --
14 MR. KEENER: No.
15 MR. KERRICK: -- because they -- they
16 miss the action of going to work every day and routine.
17 MS. LAMBERTON: It's a test.
18 MR. KEENER: -- might be going in and
19 retire.
20 MR. KERRICK: Anyone from the public
21 have anything to add?
22 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: Where is that
23 walk? I'm sorry.
24 MR. KEENER: At the school.
25 MR. KERRICK: At the school, Pocono
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1 Mountain West.
2 MR. KEENER: I can e-mail you a flyer
3 if you're interested.
4 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: When I get
5 home --
6 MR. KERRICK: We don't need a motion.
7 We're adjourned.
8 Thank you for participating, stopping
9 by.
10 (Meeting concluded at 8:45 p.m.)
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7 I hereby certify that the proceedings
8 and evidence are contained fully and accurately, to the
9 best of my ability, in the notes taken by me at the
10 meeting in the above matter; and that the foregoing is a
11 true and correct transcript of the same.
12
13 ________________________________
14 Jessica L. Holt, C.R.
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