Before
THE TOBYHANNA TOWNSHIP PLANNING COMMISSION
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In Re: Regular Business Meeting
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Tobyhanna Township Government Center Building
State Avenue
Pocono Pines, Pennsylvania 18350
Thursday, July 9, 2009, beginning at 7:00 p.m.
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PRESENT: MARK SINCAVAGE, Chairperson
JOSEPH MILLER, Vice-Chairperson
ROBERT BAXTER, Board Member
ANNE LAMBERTON, Board Member
ALSO PRESENT: PHYLLIS HAASE, Zoning Officer
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___________________________________________________
PANKO REPORTING
537 Sarah Street, 2nd Floor
Stroudsburg, Pennsylvania 18360
(570) 421-3620
2
1 MR. SINCAVAGE: I'll call the
2 regular scheduled meeting of the Tobyhanna Planning
3 Commission to order for July 9, 2009.
4 Our first order of business is, to
5 approve the June 2009 minutes. A copy is here if
6 anybody in the public wants to see them.
7 Is there any question or comment or
8 receive them electronically?
9 MR. MILLER: I make a motion we
10 approve the minutes as delivered.
11 MR. SINCAVAGE: I have a motion.
12 Do I have a second to the motion?
13 MR. BAXTER: Second.
14 MR. SINCAVAGE: Motion and second.
15 Any discussion?
16 All in favor please say aye?
17 Aye.
18 MR. MILLER: Aye.
19 MR. BAXTER: Aye.
20 MS. LAMBERTON: Aye.
21 MR. SINCAVAGE: Next item on our
22 agenda is John McElroy. State your name for the
23 record.
24 MR. JAMES HENDRICKS: My name is Jim
25 Hendricks, I'm with HRG. I'm representing John
3
1 McElroy this evening. I see Bob is not here today.
2 MR. SINCAVAGE: Yes, but we are.
3 MR. JAMES HENDRICKS: And you are
4 who I came to see.
5 MR. SINCAVAGE: That's right.
6 MR. JAMES HENDRICKS: The -- I guess
7 first I want to say thank you because if you look
8 at the date that we submitted, and it was well past
9 our required submission date, Mr. McHale worked
10 with us, as he has in the past, to do a quick
11 review that we quickly responded to; and the result
12 is the drawings that you see here on the wonderful
13 high-tech presentation that we have. I really
14 appreciate that too.
15 Back in February I presented this
16 plan just -- not formally but just to help the
17 board become familiar with it. This is on Route
18 115 just north of Keswick Pointe and Fern Crest
19 intersection. We have a 12,000 square foot retail
20 building and a 6100 square foot restaurant with a
21 full access off of 115 and full access off of Fern
22 Crest Road right there.
23 The HOP is in its second review by
24 PennDOT. And as a result of the traffic impact
25 that we're having on the area, 115 is being widened
4
1 from McGinley's driveway, is actually where it
2 starts up here, and it's being widened all the way
3 down to about a hundred feet past John McElroy's
4 property tying in the taper that's there from
5 Keswick Pointe now.
6 So ultimately there is going to be a
7 left turn lane coming here for Fern Crest which
8 ends right there and then picks up again as soon as
9 you're past Fern Crest, provide a left turn in to
10 our project, which also has a -- this is a left
11 turn lane in both directions which will accommodate
12 these driveways that you see on the south side of
13 115 in the future, if that's needed.
14 The properties are served by two
15 on-lot wells. There was an issue with fire water
16 recently and we're exploring alternatives to
17 providing the fire water. Initially we intended to
18 come from a dry hydrant at Camelot Lake that's
19 about 5,000 feet away. Mr. McHale expressed some
20 concern, if we could find a better way to do that
21 so we have tentatively a 47,000 gallon tank; we
22 have room to put it in this location right there.
23 We've also had some discussions with
24 Mr. Hannig about in the future perhaps having some
25 access to his water. That's not a 50 percent
5
1 deal -- or, you know, it's just something that
2 we're talking about in the future because he is
3 going to have a hydrant very near here to supply
4 water to this facility. But I think there's some
5 issues with providing water to someone outside of
6 his community that has to be dealt with. And
7 that's the alternatives we're exploring for water.
8 If you'd like, I'll go through
9 Mr. McHale's letter and --
10 MR. SINCAVAGE: I don't think we
11 need to do that because Bob's recommending
12 approval. I know I have a couple of questions that
13 I can start and then if the board has any ones,
14 they can jump in.
15 One of the issues was the buffer and
16 you're asking, I believe, for a partial waiver to
17 that.
18 MR. JAMES HENDRICKS: Right.
19 MR. SINCAVAGE: Is that correct?
20 MR. JAMES HENDRICKS: Yes, we are.
21 Is the landscape planning available?
22 Thank you, Phyllis.
23 There is a 25 foot buffer required
24 on the backside because this is a commercial zoned
25 property and the zone line is right here. This is
6
1 a residential property; there is a residence
2 located right here. The buffer zone -- well, first
3 let me say that the ordinance requires that this
4 zone be maintained without any construction in it
5 and the vegetation needs to be left as-is and/or
6 supplemented.
7 The last time I presented the plan
8 there was some indication from the board they would
9 like to see more landscape vegetation for buffer.
10 So we have supplemented the Douglas fir with white
11 fir trees and an offset pattern here in the buffer
12 zone to help buffer the visual effects of it.
13 The reason we are asking for a
14 partial waiver is because we have -- I'd have to
15 show you the lighting plans, but there are a couple
16 of lights right back here on this line that are
17 only about a foot off of the edge of the pave. And
18 to make our grading plan work, we do need to --
19 MS. HAASE: Is this what you wanted
20 to see?
21 MR. JAMES HENDRICKS: Yes. There's
22 a light here and I believe there's one other right
23 here and the others are on the building.
24 MR. SINCAVAGE: Okay.
25 MR. JAMES HENDRICKS: And it's just
7
1 barely off of the pavement, but we also need to
2 grade -- do some grading within about a foot, two
3 feet of the edge of pave, which is -- the edge of
4 pave is the edge of the 25 foot buffer, to be able
5 to get our drainage to work effectively. But
6 whatever we would disturb right there certainly we
7 would put back.
8 MR. SINCAVAGE: So are you going to
9 clear the buffer then?
10 MR. JAMES HENDRICKS: Oh, no.
11 MR. SINCAVAGE: The landscaping plan
12 shows quite a few trees in there. Is that going to
13 be supplemental to what's existing?
14 MR. JAMES HENDRICKS: Yes, that's
15 the plan now.
16 MR. SINCAVAGE: Because that's
17 pretty heavily wooded, isn't it?
18 MR. JAMES HENDRICKS: It is heavily
19 wooded and the trees there are fairly mature trees.
20 The undergrowth is mostly about knee high, and I
21 think the concern was that the existing trees would
22 not provide adequate buffer as far as visual
23 effects.
24 MR. SINCAVAGE: So you're going to
25 clear, though, that foot and a half to do your
8
1 grading?
2 MR. JAMES HENDRICKS: Yes.
3 MR. SINCAVAGE: So you are going to
4 be clearing somewhat of the buffer?
5 MR. JAMES HENDRICKS: Yes.
6 MR. SINCAVAGE: Okay. And that's --
7 the partial waiver is for that and to allow the
8 lights?
9 MR. JAMES HENDRICKS: Yes.
10 MR. BAXTER: But where all these
11 trees are going in -- and by the looks of this
12 plan, it looks like it's gonna be just a solid wall
13 of staggered trees.
14 MR. JAMES HENDRICKS: It would
15 effectively be that. We're looking at certainly
16 mature trees here. I don't think that we would
17 have any problem with clearing some of that buffer
18 to make adequate, you know, space for the trees
19 that we're planting, knowing that it will be some
20 time before they're mature.
21 MR. BAXTER: Well, that was kind of
22 what I was wondering because that doesn't look like
23 there's room for anything left that is already
24 existing there. And to get that amount of trees
25 in, would you have to clear some of the existing
9
1 lower vegetation? Which would make sense because
2 then it's being replaced with larger trees. Are
3 those -- these are all evergreens?
4 MR. JAMES HENDRICKS: Yes, they are.
5 They're Douglas fir and white fir. The trees that
6 are there are mature trees and they're fairly
7 widely spaced out, probably, I don't know, you walk
8 through there. I had pictures the last time I was
9 here. They're 30 feet, sometimes 40 feet apart.
10 MR. SINCAVAGE: It is a very mature
11 forest and you can see the note there, you know,
12 that the trees are to be planned in such a manner
13 as to not disturb any existing trees. So, you
14 know, the way the plan is presented, though I
15 agree, that's why I raised the question also, you
16 know, I wanted to know if it was gonna be cleared
17 but they're saying no.
18 MR. BAXTER: Well, 'cause you almost
19 think for these to live and make them worthwhile
20 putting them in, you do need to do some -- not of
21 the major trees but the undergrowth.
22 MR. SINCAVAGE: Right. Pruning.
23 MR. BAXTER: So that you're not
24 putting all of these in shaded things where they're
25 doomed to die, as we've seen in so many other
10
1 landscape plans.
2 MR. JAMES HENDRICKS: Well, perhaps
3 we should revisit that with our landscape architect
4 because the -- a lot of this area is actually
5 shaded most of the time because of trees that are
6 there. Although they're well dispersed, they are
7 mature trees.
8 MR. SINCAVAGE: But when you open up
9 that frontage I would think you're gonna get a lot
10 more sunlight in it because that's the southern
11 exposure.
12 MR. JAMES HENDRICKS: Yes.
13 MR. BAXTER: West.
14 MR. SINCAVAGE: I'm sorry, west
15 exposure, you're right.
16 MR. BAXTER: Well, I just would hate
17 to see that amount of nice trees put in if they're
18 doomed to die in three to five years because of
19 shade or --
20 MR. JAMES HENDRICKS: Right.
21 MR. BAXTER: -- snowplow damage, if
22 they're right on the very edge of the buffer.
23 MR. JAMES HENDRICKS: Okay. Well,
24 we did originally have significantly less trees in
25 that area, and I don't know if it was a comment
11
1 from the board or from the township engineer, we
2 supplemented it to provide additional, so maybe --
3 MR. BAXTER: Well, I like the amount
4 of trees. I think that that --
5 MR. JAMES HENDRICKS: You think
6 that's a good thing.
7 MR. BAXTER: Yes, I do. I just want
8 to see them all live.
9 MR. JAMES HENDRICKS: Okay. So
10 perhaps we could have a -- be allowed to actually
11 cut some of the existing vegetation.
12 MR. SINCAVAGE: The undergrowth, not
13 trees.
14 MR. JAMES HENDRICKS: The
15 undergrowth.
16 MR. SINCAVAGE: Right.
17 MR. BAXTER: Yes.
18 MR. JAMES HENDRICKS: We'll add a
19 note to the plan to that effect. And that won't
20 affect the waiver?
21 MR. SINCAVAGE: No, no, because a
22 waiver is gonna be a partial waiver anyhow, so
23 that's correct. The other thing I wanted to go
24 over, if you can explain it to me, Jim, is the
25 drainage plan.
12
1 MR. JAMES HENDRICKS: Yes.
2 MR. SINCAVAGE: If you can go to
3 that, Phyllis, please.
4 I'm sorry, there's no more questions
5 on landscaping, was there?
6 MR. BAXTER: No.
7 MS. LAMBERTON: No.
8 MR. SINCAVAGE: This is on the
9 grading plan, Jim, those underground basins?
10 MR. JAMES HENDRICKS: Yes, the
11 grading plan.
12 MR. SINCAVAGE: If you can zoom in
13 on the Area 1, that would be a good one. Where is
14 the discharge point for this subsurface
15 infiltration bed?
16 MR. JAMES HENDRICKS: This discharge
17 is through this inlet box right here. And it comes
18 out of this inlet box; and, of course, that flow is
19 metered as it comes out here. There's an existing
20 natural drainage -- well, it's not natural, it was
21 actually created right here, so there is a
22 discharge point preexisting here.
23 The other discharge points, the
24 property sheet flows -- and currently there are
25 some existing culverts under 115 that take the
13
1 water across the other side of Route 115.
2 MR. SINCAVAGE: So that Swale 1 is
3 going to flow around and go back to that natural
4 flow area.
5 MR. JAMES HENDRICKS: Yes. This
6 Swale 1 will take the water around here. It's
7 actually receiving treatment. This is a BMP swale.
8 MR. SINCAVAGE: Right. Is that
9 depressed?
10 MR. JAMES HENDRICKS: Yes.
11 MR. SINCAVAGE: Okay. Could the
12 subsurface system become supercharged? And if
13 so -- I mean, it could; we could have a
14 thousand-year flood.
15 MR. JAMES HENDRICKS: It could. I
16 believe that we checked that with the hundred-year
17 event and it will not supercharge. Over that, all
18 bets are off.
19 MR. SINCAVAGE: Right. And if it
20 does supercharge, where is the water gonna come
21 out?
22 MR. JAMES HENDRICKS: The water is
23 then gonna exit the curb cuts and the other natural
24 areas that we have. I mean, obviously this outlet
25 will be full and to its capacity, but there's areas
14
1 where we have curb cuts that are going out to the
2 swale or to existing culverts.
3 MR. SINCAVAGE: So is the pavement
4 on that surface permeable?
5 MR. JAMES HENDRICKS: Pervious. No,
6 it's not. We're actually trying to avoid that. I
7 know it's a green lead item to have pervious
8 pavement, but we are sheet flowing the water. And
9 we have a high point across here so we're sheet
10 flowing water in this direction to this inlet, and
11 the water in this area is sheet flown back over
12 here.
13 So this subsurface is receiving
14 water from the roof of the structure and from --
15 right in here there's a line. So there's not a
16 huge area that's feeding this area that's gonna
17 come out into this swale. But in the event of a
18 significant storm, this inlet is also discharging
19 here. So we're picking up this water that hits
20 here.
21 MR. SINCAVAGE: And what are you
22 putting in there? Are you just putting in 2-B?
23 MR. JAMES HENDRICKS: The subsurface
24 infiltration beds are actually rain tanks. They're
25 just under two foot in height and they're
15
1 cylinders, they're plastic cylinders, and they come
2 in blocks. I don't know if you have the detail
3 sheets there.
4 MR. SINCAVAGE: Yeah, I'm confused
5 by it, that's why I'm asking. It's something I
6 haven't seen before.
7 MR. JAMES HENDRICKS: They have a
8 tremendous amount of volume for their size as far
9 as storing water and they're actually designed for
10 H-20 lows, and, you know, we've gotten a letter
11 from the manufacturer.
12 There were two concerns that
13 Mr. McHale had and one was the loading of the
14 traffic and then how they would perform in cold
15 weather or freezing weather in relation to that;
16 because we think that plastic gets brittle when it
17 gets cold. Is this gonna hold up? And we did our
18 own calculations in addition to doing the ones that
19 they have with their catalog, and I'm satisfied
20 that the H-20 loading is adequate. And we had them
21 provide some certification.
22 They have these installed in Maine
23 with the same amount of cover we have here. The
24 minimum cover we have here is right at 18 inches.
25 Most of our cover is around two feet or better over
16
1 the top of the rain tanks. The bottom of the rain
2 tanks slope approximately one percent.
3 There have been failures with some
4 of these products mostly with, I would call it,
5 knock-off products. But whenever there's been a
6 failure, it's been because the installation wasn't
7 correct. And so we have significant notes on the
8 drawing that there will be a representative of the
9 manufacturer on-site prior to the start and all the
10 way through.
11 And we're requiring that the
12 manufacturer have their engineer certify that it
13 was installed according to our plans and their
14 standards. We're also requiring that Mr. McHale
15 and HRG are notified before they start work on that
16 so that we can observe it; because, as you know, I
17 have to certify the as-builts for the whole site.
18 We don't want our client to experience any problems
19 with this down the road.
20 They have -- they are using these in
21 Maine; they have been used for several years. And
22 the feedback that I got from the manufacturer is,
23 even though they are above the frost depth, they
24 don't freeze because they are influenced by the
25 ground temperatures below that they extend into.
17
1 MR. SINCAVAGE: Any questions from
2 any other board member?
3 MS. LAMBERTON: No.
4 MR. JAMES HENDRICKS: Mr. Sincavage,
5 the reason that these are as large as they are is
6 because of the ratio that's required by the
7 regulations. The volume can actually be handled
8 with a much smaller area, but the ratio of surface
9 area to impervious area is what rules in the size
10 of these.
11 MR. SINCAVAGE: I've just never seen
12 it before so I just wanted to understand it. Thank
13 you.
14 MS. HAASE: Jim, have you had a
15 discussion with the sewer enforcement officer?
16 MR. JAMES HENDRICKS: Yes. I
17 actually talked to him again today. And we've had
18 discussions on and off. We are planning on tying
19 into the public sewer system, and that line comes
20 right down in the right-of-way.
21 That was a real issue there because
22 we had swales and we couldn't get the cover on the
23 sewer line and we were faced with either relocating
24 of the sewer -- which none of us really want to do
25 that, it's the main. And PennDOT was kind enough
18
1 to allow us to curb this area and we eliminated the
2 swales that we had here with the standard shoulder
3 details for PennDOT road work. So we were able to
4 maintain the cover over the sewer line.
5 When I talked to the SEO, the
6 conversation was primarily about the number of EDUs
7 in service, and right now there are six EDUs
8 assigned to the restaurant building. There's one
9 EDU assigned to the 12,000 square foot retail
10 building, and that is based upon the criteria in
11 the ordinances. However, there's an understanding,
12 and the ordinance requires, that if that were to be
13 divided into, say, three or four separate tenants,
14 there will be an EDU and a tap-in fee required for
15 each one of those units.
16 Now, the lateral will still provide
17 for the flows from the building, but Mr. McElroy
18 understands that that is what will happen should we
19 develop that into three or four locations. He
20 actually paid some assessment fees when the sewer
21 line was first installed; he owned those five lots
22 at that time. I guess there were some --
23 MS. HAASE: That was my next
24 question, is whether it was paid for residential or
25 commercial use. Did you have any discussions with
19
1 Mr. Brogan with that?
2 MR. JAMES HENDRICKS: No, I did not.
3 He did tell me that they checked at the township, I
4 believe, yesterday 'cause we talked this morning.
5 And Mr. McElroy had paid, I believe, $1800 per lot
6 for each of the five lots. Yes, $1,500.
7 MS. HAASE: $1,500.
8 MR. JAMES HENDRICKS: And so I had
9 talked to John McElroy earlier and he told me he
10 thought he paid 3500. And I said, well, that
11 sounds like a tap-in fee. Usually when they
12 install the sewer line you're only paying an
13 assessment. Well, it turns out it was the
14 assessment fee, so he will still be needing to pay
15 the tapping fee.
16 MR. SINCAVAGE: Well, he needs to
17 pay the assessment fees for commercial also.
18 MS. HAASE: Right. If it was
19 assessed for a residential property, once it turns
20 into commercial use, I believe it's an additional
21 1500, I believe --
22 MR. SINCAVAGE: Yes.
23 MS. HAASE: -- assessment. So
24 that's something that we just need to look into so
25 make certain if it was or was not paid. If it was
20
1 not, then we would require that.
2 MR. JAMES HENDRICKS: Okay. I
3 haven't had that discussion with John. That didn't
4 come up so --
5 MS. HAASE: That's why I wanted to
6 bring that up.
7 MR. JAMES HENDRICKS: I'll talk to
8 him and make sure that we look into that.
9 MS. HAASE: The other item that I
10 had regarding the lot consultation --
11 MR. SINCAVAGE: I'm sorry, wait,
12 Phyllis, there's a question.
13 Anne, what was your question?
14 MS. LAMBERTON: It wasn't always
15 commercial?
16 MR. SINCAVAGE: No. If the use was
17 residential at the time the sewer line was put
18 in --
19 MS. LAMBERTON: I just (inaudible)
20 his property.
21 MR. SINCAVAGE: No. If it was a
22 residential use at the time that the sewer line was
23 put in, they allow them to pay the 1500; but when
24 it changed to a commercial use, then they have to
25 pay the additional fee.
21
1 MS. HAASE: Just in fairness to
2 Mr. McElroy, I just wanted to bring that up.
3 MR. JAMES HENDRICKS: Well, I
4 appreciate that and we will look into it because he
5 thought that he had paid significantly more than
6 the 1500 per lot, so maybe he paid it, maybe he
7 didn't. We'll find out.
8 MR. SINCAVAGE: We'll definitely pay
9 him. Whatever's fair.
10 MS. HAASE: And the other item I had
11 regarding the lot consolidation, we're also going
12 to need a tax certification certificate from the
13 county just basically showing that the taxes have
14 been paid on those prior to consolidating them.
15 MR. JAMES HENDRICKS: Okay.
16 MS. HAASE: And that's something --
17 MR. JAMES HENDRICKS: We did
18 actually obtain that --
19 MS. HAASE: You did?
20 MR. JAMES HENDRICKS: -- but that was
21 a year ago. So if you need to do it again, I think
22 we certainly can.
23 MS. HAASE: If you submitted it to
24 the township, they probably could call the office
25 just to verify that it has been paid.
22
1 MR. JAMES HENDRICKS: Okay. I will
2 do that.
3 MR. SINCAVAGE: I have a question on
4 the fire code note of Bob's review letter. It says
5 that compliance alternatives are being explored.
6 Where are you with your meeting the fire code
7 requirements?
8 MR. JAMES HENDRICKS: Well, that is
9 the water supply issue for firefighting that I was
10 discussing earlier.
11 MR. SINCAVAGE: Okay.
12 MR. JAMES HENDRICKS: We need 47,000
13 gallons on-site, according to Guardian. How do you
14 say that word?
15 MR. SINCAVAGE: Bureau Veritas.
16 MR. JAMES HENDRICKS: Bureau
17 Veritas. I'm from the southwest and I messed up.
18 So that's -- we are going to comply, we're not sure
19 how we're going to comply. I already had been
20 talking to the manufacturers, had details for the
21 tanks and things to put underground. And on our
22 plan we actually show a location right here; it's
23 for a potential 47,000 gallon tank underground.
24 And if we do that, we can bring the
25 vent and the fire hydrant right over here to this
23
1 island, and we would have an H-20 rated manhole for
2 access. And, you know, that may be the way it
3 goes. I mean, if he moves faster than people
4 around him and he wants to develop the property,
5 that's probably what he will wind up doing.
6 I understand there is a very
7 reasonable reluctance on the part of the township
8 to use the dry hydrants because of the damage
9 occurring to the fire trucks. I know that that's
10 still permitted, that's been done even recently,
11 but it depends upon the way the water is, how much
12 you need.
13 MR. SINCAVAGE: Right.
14 Phyllis, do you have any other
15 questions?
16 MS. HAASE: No, sir.
17 MR. SINCAVAGE: Any other members
18 have any other questions?
19 Okay. I'll entertain --
20 MR. BAXTER: This is preliminary?
21 MR. SINCAVAGE: Yeah. It's
22 preliminary final, right.
23 MR. JAMES HENDRICKS: Preliminary
24 final.
25 MR. SINCAVAGE: I'll entertain a
24
1 motion to --
2 MR. BAXTER: I guess I do have one
3 question. Do we need to clarify what is being done
4 in the landscape buffer?
5 MR. SINCAVAGE: I think we can put
6 that in a note. A note will be put on there that
7 undergrowth may be cut to accommodate the buffer
8 vegetation.
9 Okay. I'll entertain a motion to
10 approve the land development plan for John A.
11 McElroy subject to the township letter dated
12 July 8, 2009; and further recommend approval of
13 waivers for Stormwater Ordinance 124-8 -- give me
14 your glasses. Let's start again. Stormwater
15 Ordinance 124-86.B(17); SALDO Section 135-12.D(2);
16 SALDO Section 135-17.L; SALDO Section 135-17.M;
17 SALDO Section 135-26.B(1), as a partial waiver for
18 permitting light standards and undergrowth clearing
19 as-needed to place buffer trees as shown on plan.
20 MR. JAMES HENDRICKS: And does that
21 mean to also say minimal grading at the perimeter?
22 MR. SINCAVAGE: And minimal grading
23 around the perimeter of the parking lot.
24 MR. JAMES HENDRICKS: Thank you.
25 MR. BAXTER: So moved.
25
1 MR. SINCAVAGE: I have a motion.
2 Do I have a second to the motion?
3 MR. MILLER: I'll second it.
4 MR. SINCAVAGE: I have a motion and
5 second.
6 Any further questions?
7 All in favor please say aye?
8 Aye.
9 MR. MILLER: Aye.
10 MR. BAXTER: Aye.
11 MS. LAMBERTON: Aye.
12 MR. JAMES HENDRICKS: Thank you very
13 much.
14 MR. SINCAVAGE: Okay. Are we ready
15 to go through our open projects?
16 I'll entertain a motion to table
17 Wee-Wons Day Care expansion, preliminary final land
18 development plan.
19 MR. MILLER: So moved.
20 MR. SINCAVAGE: I have a motion.
21 Second to the motion?
22 MR. BAXTER: Second.
23 MR. SINCAVAGE: Motion and second.
24 All in favor please say aye?
25 Aye.
26
1 MR. MILLER: Aye.
2 MR. BAXTER: Aye.
3 MS. LAMBERTON: Aye.
4 MR. SINCAVAGE: I'll entertain a
5 motion to table Glorious Church land development
6 plan.
7 MR. MILLER: So moved.
8 MR. BAXTER: Second.
9 MR. SINCAVAGE: Motion and second.
10 All those in favor please say aye?
11 Aye.
12 MR. MILLER: Aye.
13 MR. BAXTER: Aye.
14 MS. LAMBERTON: Aye.
15 MR. SINCAVAGE: Glorious Church
16 conditional use application. I'll entertain a
17 motion to table.
18 MR. MILLER: So moved.
19 MR. BAXTER: Second.
20 MR. SINCAVAGE: All those in favor
21 please say aye?
22 Aye.
23 MR. MILLER: Aye.
24 MR. BAXTER: Aye.
25 MS. LAMBERTON: Aye.
27
1 MR. SINCAVAGE: I'll entertain a
2 motion to table Locust Ridge Quarry 940 contractor
3 shop, preliminary land development plan.
4 MR. MILLER: So moved.
5 MR. BAXTER: Second.
6 MR. SINCAVAGE: All those in favor
7 please say aye?
8 Aye.
9 MR. MILLER: Aye.
10 MR. BAXTER: Aye.
11 MS. LAMBERTON: Aye.
12 MR. SINCAVAGE: For the record, I'll
13 note that Wee-Wons Day Care expansion time waiver
14 should be recommended for approval.
15 That brings us to Lost Trails. This
16 is a presubmission for a conditional use
17 application. This is a conference between the
18 planning commission and the applicant.
19 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: Correct?
20 MR. SINCAVAGE: It's an informal
21 session to start discussion on what would be
22 required on the submission of the land development
23 plan. Is that your understanding?
24 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: Yes.
25 MR. SINCAVAGE: Please state your
28
1 name for the record.
2 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: My name is
3 Anthony Novak. I'm the president of the Lost
4 Trails.
5 MR. SINCAVAGE: Ma'am, are you going
6 to be speaking?
7 MRS. LESLIE NOVAK: No, I'm writing.
8 MS. HAASE: Mr. Chairman, if I may,
9 this is going to be for a site development plan and
10 not a land development plan. The ordinance
11 requires the applicant to submit an application
12 along with appropriate fees to hold a conference
13 with the planning commission and the board of
14 supervisors.
15 There are certain requirements,
16 they're under 155-79, which I provided to the
17 commission members, and those items either may or
18 may not be placed on the site development plan per
19 the recommendation of the planning commission and
20 also the board of supervisors.
21 So with that being said, Mr. Novak
22 has a presentation or he can answer any questions
23 that you may have.
24 MR. SINCAVAGE: Do you want to start
25 with your presentation, sir?
29
1 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: I can do that.
2 It's an oral. Do you have a copy of this?
3 MR. SINCAVAGE: Yes.
4 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: Okay. The
5 proposed outdoor recreation is for a
6 family-oriented ATV trail riding facility. The
7 property in question is along Sullivan Trail on
8 192 acres, which was recently rezoned commercial
9 from -- I think it was residential previously, but
10 it's now --
11 MS. HAASE: Residential, correct.
12 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: -- commercial.
13 The property consists of trails, dirt roads, and a
14 parking area that were left over from the
15 property's previous usage, which was as a surface
16 mining operation in that area. It contains
17 192 acres with various elevation changes that is
18 very desirous of the ATV riders.
19 The primary usage of the property by
20 us will be used for the parking and staging, which
21 is the loading and unloading of the ATVs with only
22 about 35 of the 192 acres being used for ATV riding
23 within the various pits and the mud holes that are
24 there.
25 The proposed structures that we have
30
1 will be of nonpermanent. It's consisting of a
2 roll-off type shed. It's used for a checking in to
3 Lost Trails members and will have three Porta-Johns
4 on the -- for sanitary facilities. The property
5 abuts to an additional 1200 acres, which will be to
6 the right up there and that's in Pocono Township.
7 We're just trying to illustrate --
8 we're using the 1200 acres that is the bulk of the
9 trail system in the other township, and we're just
10 trying to show you the proximity of the property
11 that's in question here in Tobyhanna Township.
12 MR. MILLER: Can I ask a question?
13 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: Yes, sir.
14 MR. MILLER: How many people would
15 you expect to be on your trails at a maximum time?
16 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: Well, we
17 average, what, 40 a day average for the -- average
18 on a weekly basis. Okay?
19 MR. MILLER: Okay.
20 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: Weekends being a
21 little bit more popular than the weekdays. So on
22 weekends we can hit -- we hit about maybe 150 on
23 Saturday, 150 on Sunday. That's attendance, that
24 is not traffic count. 'Cause when they arrive they
25 have trailers and they fit, on average, four, five,
31
1 six. We've seen as many as eight ATVs being pulled
2 by one vehicle with the whole family inside the
3 vehicle. So traffic would be one thing, attendance
4 is completely different.
5 MR. SINCAVAGE: So you're saying
6 there's 150 vehicle movements coming in or --
7 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: No, 150 ATVs.
8 MR. SINCAVAGE: Are on the trail at
9 any given time?
10 MR. MILLER: Could be on the trail.
11 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: Right. On
12 average I would say if you take the 150 and divide
13 that by 4 or 5 ATVs, that would give you a traffic
14 count. The traffic count is much lower than the
15 actual riders.
16 MR. SINCAVAGE: Was that your
17 question?
18 MR. BAXTER: Yeah.
19 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: I took care of
20 that. All right. The operation. The nature of
21 our operation is to promote a secure, legal, and
22 organized environment for families to experience
23 responsible ATV riding. The facility is open five
24 days a week, Thursday through Monday, from 9 a.m.
25 to 5 p.m. There's a correction that should be
32
1 noted on yours of this next sentence. We're open
2 from January through November, Thanksgiving being
3 the cutoff, and then we close from Thanksgiving
4 until January, the first week of January after New
5 Year's, and then we reopen again but only on
6 weekends. Okay?
7 Responsibile ATV riding is
8 maintained and encouraged by us the following ways:
9 We do require proper riding gear at all times such
10 as helmets and goggles. They must wear them to
11 participate. There's signage and directional
12 arrows on all of the trailways. There are barriers
13 in place to keep the riders within the property
14 boundary and out of sensitive environmental areas
15 or neighboring property.
16 Security patrols the trail several
17 times a day offering assistance and ensuring that
18 all the riders keep a safe protocol while visiting
19 the facility. ATV sound levels are kept within the
20 DCNR and also the PA State guidelines, which is at
21 99 decibels. And you measure that at 20 inches
22 away from the vehicle.
23 All ATVs -- oh, I didn't bring that
24 in. All ATVs have a Lost Trails safety
25 identification flag that is mounted. It's six feet
33
1 tall, it has a custom-made logo on it so you can't
2 buy these anyplace else but through us. And what
3 that's for is to quickly identify the people who
4 are riding belong there. Okay?
5 It also has worked in our favor. We
6 realize that when we were gonna operate this
7 facility we would end up probably being accused or
8 blamed for every conceivable ATV problem that past
9 existed and now it'd be pointed at us 'cause we're
10 a place to point at. It has helped us because if
11 you now see people riding on the roads or in
12 developments and stuff, if they don't have our logo
13 flag, they're not us. Okay?
14 And it's been used by Pocono Manor,
15 their security, 'cause we do get renegades that
16 come on. They've been coming on for 20 years, is
17 what I've been told. But now we quickly can
18 identify that, hey, that's one of our people, they
19 belong here or they're strangers and they don't.
20 We also will be providing the DCNR
21 ATV safety course by a certified safety instructor.
22 I, myself, am an ATV safety instructor. It's a
23 state law that children between the ages of eight
24 and sixteen, if they're gonna ride on state lands
25 or properties other than their own, they must be
34
1 certified and go through the safety course. It's a
2 four-hour course. We will be starting that in the
3 next couple of months.
4 The Lost Trails ATV Adventures, it
5 is consistent with the Monroe County Comprehensive
6 Plan in that it does the following: It proposes
7 keeping the large acreage dedicated for
8 recreational activities. It conserves the
9 environmental quality that is the county's
10 principal attraction for visitors and residents
11 alike.
12 It contributes to property as one
13 form of open space preservation since there's not
14 gonna be any development there but our activity.
15 It aids in contributing towards the commercial
16 agenda and the tourism industry, which is the third
17 largest level of visitor spending and employment of
18 any Pennsylvania county after Philadelphia and
19 Allegheny. And I'm referring to Monroe County.
20 It assists in preserving an area
21 with high scenic value, superior views of the
22 Monroe County landscape, which I'm speaking along
23 the Back Mountain and Summit Road Corridor where
24 you can visually see the entire mountain range of
25 Camelback and the Delaware Water Gap views from
35
1 back there. The proposed outdoor recreational use
2 of the property will avert residential squall right
3 off the bat.
4 The proposal coincides with one of
5 the primary principles of a recently adopted
6 strategic plan prepared by the Pocono Mountains
7 Vacation Bureau which has outlined the need to
8 focus on providing a quality experience at all
9 Pocono Mountain attractions and properties. It
10 supports the tourism industry in its efforts to
11 upgrade the facilities and respond to changing
12 trends, will be an important component of the
13 county's economic development effort.
14 By changing trends, it's now being
15 discovered, and Penn State has done quite a bit of
16 study, ATV riding is now a very recognized family
17 recreational activity, despite some of the people
18 who are giving it a bad name, like the renegades
19 ripping all over the place.
20 The state recognizes it needs
21 trails. We do have some trails in the vicinity;
22 Dixon Miller, blood -- I think it's called Bloody
23 Skillet up in the Delaware area. So by changing
24 trends I think we're also supporting that 'cause
25 now we're gonna have a facility right here in
36
1 Tobyhanna Township.
2 Environmental issues. I just had a
3 meeting today with Soil Conservation, but The Lost
4 Trails is working with DEP and Monroe County to
5 identify sensitive areas and we will be developing
6 an E&S plan and maintaining an environmentally
7 friendly facility. We have to submit that; we have
8 the next 45 days and we're working with them on
9 that.
10 Local community support. Located
11 immediately adjacent to the property, along the
12 southern route of Sullivan Trail, is a development
13 commonly knows as Blueberry Estates. And along its
14 northern route, separated by Interstate 380 are a
15 portion of Emerald Lakes development. These
16 developments and its property owners I'm
17 identifying as the closest residential area to the
18 proposed outdoor recreational area.
19 I have in your packet statements
20 that these individuals had signed. I had gone door
21 to door to see if they have a problem with what
22 we're doing. And if I may just read the statement,
23 the statement reads -- and we do have four pages
24 with 43 signatures, which is well past the majority
25 of the owners in Blueberry Estates.
37
1 Blueberry Estates is located by the
2 numbers 44 down here and in here. So they would be
3 the closest to the property. And then I went up
4 Sullivan Trail -- you can't see it on a map 'cause
5 it's on the other side of 380, which is a buffer,
6 and there's probably -- there's several acres
7 between 380 on the other side, and I went to the
8 closest homes in there to get their reaction.
9 The statement that they had read and
10 signed goes as follows: As a property owner of
11 Tobyhanna Township I believe having a designated
12 area for ATV riding will cut back on the illegal
13 riding on our roads, on our private properties, and
14 within our developments. We feel The Lost Trails
15 ATV Adventures is benefiting our township and
16 surrounding area because they are providing a safe,
17 organized place for families to enjoy recreational
18 ATV riding without interference with the rest of
19 our community.
20 So they're attesting that since
21 we've been operating in '07, they feel that it is a
22 very good thing. And they don't have a problem
23 with us and they're the closest. If I was to go
24 and expound further away, I believe we would not
25 have any problems having these signed. Okay?
38
1 And the last part of the business
2 is, I went to also businesses with a similar
3 statement, that we feel that we helped impact. And
4 I'll read the statement: Located within Tobyhanna
5 Township and the Pocono Mountains surrounding area
6 are businesses which have received a noticeable
7 increase to their establishments as a direct result
8 from The Lost Trails ATV Adventures. The types of
9 businesses range from a small mom-and-pop deli,
10 such as Joe's Quick Mart, which is on the corner of
11 940 and Long Pond, to the large corporations of the
12 Days Inn and Great Wolf Lodge.
13 The statements are signed by the
14 local businesses declaring that they have
15 experienced an increase in their business and
16 they're stating their support for our activity.
17 And I will read the statement that they had signed.
18 And we have -- we have three pages with 27
19 signatures when I had prepared this, and I have
20 about eight or ten more that I can also give you as
21 a copy.
22 But if I may read the statement: As
23 a business operating in the Pocono Mountains Area,
24 we have had a noticeable increase in the patronage
25 and/or in the referrals to our activities
39
1 attributable to The Lost Trails ATV Adventure Park.
2 We feel that The Lost Trails is a benefit to our
3 area and provides a needed activity for its
4 residents, vacationers, and in the promotion to the
5 Pocono Mountains tourism business.
6 And then that's it for my oral. If
7 you have any questions?
8 MR. SINCAVAGE: Well, how long have
9 you been in business there?
10 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: July '07.
11 MR. SINCAVAGE: And have they
12 secured any permits for the shed parking area?
13 MS. HAASE: Well, they do not --
14 they're not required to submit a permit for the
15 parking area. For the shed, Mr. Novak did submit
16 an application. At that particular time, it was a
17 rural/residential district so I was not able to
18 approve the application for commercial use.
19 So we had discussed at that time
20 that once the board of supervisors made the
21 decision of whether to rezone the property or not,
22 then Mr. Novak would resubmit the application. So
23 to answer the question, yes, he did; it was not
24 approved due to the pending application.
25 MR. SINCAVAGE: Because he was
40
1 operating a commercial business in a residential
2 area?
3 MS. HAASE: Correct.
4 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: And there was
5 different ways to -- we could have operated. We
6 had to figure out a different way to do it when it
7 was residential; it's a different presentation if
8 it's commercial. And not knowing which way to go
9 and doing our efforts twice, the township was nice
10 enough to wait it out with us to see which way it
11 was gonna go with the property.
12 MS. HAASE: Mr. Novak, of course, is
13 a lessee. He's a concession on Pocono Manor's
14 property. So Pocono Manor itself decided to rezone
15 the property, so that's where Mr. Novak and his
16 business was kind of caught in between of which way
17 to submit the application, whether it be a special
18 exception or a conditional use.
19 MR. SINCAVAGE: But you're a
20 business operating in that area not as a concession
21 to Pocono Manor but as an independent for-profit
22 business; is that correct?
23 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: I'm not sure
24 what the difference is.
25 MR. SINCAVAGE: Are you
41
1 associated -- are you providing an amenity to
2 Pocono Manor?
3 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: Well, we are,
4 yes. That's why I'm saying I'm a little confused.
5 MS. LAMBERTON: I think the question
6 is, are you a private business?
7 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: We're a private
8 business, yes.
9 MRS. LESLIE NOVAK: An independent
10 contractor.
11 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: We're
12 independent.
13 MS. LAMBERTON: So you are a
14 business, you just happen to rent land from Pocono
15 Manor?
16 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: Correct.
17 MR. BAXTER: But does Pocono
18 Manor --
19 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: They advertise
20 the activity; they get quite a bit of business as a
21 package. We also do tours, ATV tours, where we
22 supply the ATV, the helmets, the training and we
23 take people out like horseback riding. And we go
24 out like follow the leader, and that's a big
25 package that they offer too.
42
1 MR. SINCAVAGE: So in addition to
2 being open to the public, you do provide an amenity
3 to Pocono Manor?
4 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: At a nominal
5 cost, yeah. Like they all are, like the golf
6 courses.
7 MR. SINCAVAGE: I understand that,
8 but you are open to the public and that's what
9 I'm just trying to get an idea --
10 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: Yes.
11 MS. HAASE: And, in all honesty, I
12 was not aware until I investigated this that the
13 golf course, the tennis courts, the horseback
14 riding, that is all open to the public. I was
15 under the impression that it was strictly for the
16 Manor's use and it's not. There's all separate --
17 in which they are open to the public.
18 MR. SINCAVAGE: But aren't they
19 operated by the Manor?
20 MS. HAASE: No.
21 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: No.
22 MR. SINCAVAGE: They used to be.
23 MS. LAMBERTON: They all used to be.
24 MS. HAASE: Did they?
25 MR. BAXTER: It's all subcontracted.
43
1 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: I believe, yeah,
2 the golf course may still be, but all the other
3 little ones are independent.
4 MR. SINCAVAGE: Okay. So any other
5 questions at this point?
6 MS. LAMBERTON: No.
7 MR. SINCAVAGE: Okay. So you were
8 given the list of items that are required under our
9 ordinance, to submit the site development plan,
10 under 150 -- 155-79?
11 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: Correct. And
12 the board of supervisors' meeting they started -- I
13 don't have the minutes, but -- who was the
14 solicitor?
15 MS. HAASE: John Rice.
16 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: John started
17 eliminating some of that. He goes, wait a minute,
18 we're not requiring you to do a land development.
19 You don't need this, you don't need that. And
20 there were some items I wanted to review with you
21 to see if you're in agreement, because of the
22 nature of what we were doing.
23 MR. SINCAVAGE: Okay, the first page
24 I'm looking at is -- I'm sorry, let me get to this
25 page. Okay. Well, if you have some questions,
44
1 let's start down the list. We'll start with No. 1,
2 legal data.
3 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: Well, A, B, C,
4 D, and E we feel is necessary. I don't have a
5 question with that. F, the locations, names, and
6 existing width of adjacent streets and curblines.
7 It's such a big piece of property.
8 And if I may get that just reduced
9 to Sullivan Trail and Route Interstate 380, which
10 is the two major bordering?
11 I don't know if you have that one up
12 there.
13 MS. HAASE: I do, but --
14 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: It's too big?
15 MS. HAASE: Yeah.
16 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: Well, this shows
17 it.
18 MR. SINCAVAGE: The board of
19 supervisors kept that on their list.
20 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: Oh, did they?
21 MR. SINCAVAGE: Yes. According to
22 my notes, that was on the board of supervisors'
23 list.
24 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: Okay. Then that
25 would be fine. I don't -- there's nothing else.
45
1 It's 380 here and then down here --
2 If we can get down a little lower?
3 MS. LAMBERTON: I think the
4 Blueberry Hill section was a concern.
5 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: Yeah. Like this
6 map pretty much shows, I think, everything that
7 you're gonna need.
8 G --
9 MR. SINCAVAGE: I'm sorry, I want to
10 just go back to E.
11 MR. BAXTER: He's okay with E.
12 MS. LAMBERTON: Yeah, he's okay with
13 that. That should be on there.
14 MR. SINCAVAGE: So that's just the
15 boundary -- okay. We're okay with that.
16 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: The boundaries,
17 right? Yep, I'm understanding -- it's still a
18 simple thing, is what I'm trying to understand.
19 MR. SINCAVAGE: Yep. Okay, go
20 ahead.
21 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: G. The
22 locations and owners of all adjoining lands as
23 shown on the latest tax records.
24 I'm not quite sure I understand what
25 that means, but I do know part of the ordinance
46
1 says we have to mail letters out to everybody,
2 right, within the area? So would that suffice?
3 MS. HAASE: To clarify that, the
4 township will take care of that. You folks do not
5 need to notify the surrounding property owners.
6 What this would require is, this section -- we'll
7 just take Blueberry Estates, for example.
8 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: Okay.
9 MS. HAASE: Okay? What it would
10 require for you is, to show on your plan this
11 particular lot, the owner's name, and the tax
12 number.
13 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: On every one of
14 them?
15 MS. HAASE: Right.
16 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: Could we get
17 that waived?
18 MR. SINCAVAGE: The board of
19 supervisors suggested it be waived, so if we're
20 okay with that --
21 MR. MILLER: I'm okay with that.
22 MR. BAXTER: They're still gonna get
23 mailed.
24 MS. LAMBERTON: They'll be notified
25 for the hearing.
47
1 MR. SINCAVAGE: They'll be notified.
2 Okay, we're okay with that.
3 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: And most of them
4 signed the thing I just gave you.
5 MR. SINCAVAGE: We'll be okay with
6 that.
7 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: Thank you very
8 much. That was G. H I'm okay with. That's -- I.
9 A complete outline of existing deed restrictions.
10 It's a very large piece of property owned by Pocono
11 Manor. Is that necessary, deed restrictions?
12 MR. SINCAVAGE: Yes, because if
13 there's any deed restrictions or covenants that may
14 affect the operation of your business or
15 development of your business, the township needs to
16 know that before we grant approval because we could
17 be violating something that exists.
18 MR. BAXTER: Pocono Manor would have
19 that for you.
20 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: Right.
21 MR. SINCAVAGE: We're going to
22 definitely need that. The township got in trouble
23 once before with not doing that so --
24 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: Okay. The rest
25 of legal data is fine. That was for J. See, under
48
1 natural features, A, the existing contours. Do we
2 need the -- this isn't a contour map. Do we really
3 need that? I would like to have a waiver on that.
4 That would be another -- an engineer type --
5 MR. SINCAVAGE: Well, one thing I'd
6 like to see under the natural -- and I don't know
7 that this would be natural or whether this may come
8 up, it may come up later on, but I would like to
9 see where the trails are.
10 MS. LAMBERTON: Yes, I would too.
11 MS. HAASE: I believe that was a
12 requirement from Mr. Keener.
13 MR. SINCAVAGE: I'm sorry, it was a
14 requirement from?
15 MS. HAASE: From Mr. Keener. He had
16 required that.
17 MS. LAMBERTON: Is that showing all
18 the trails in the township or is this an older map?
19 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: No, that is --
20 this is exactly what's up there. What I did in
21 orange is, I had shown the entrance from Sullivan
22 Trail, which we have that submitted to HOP. These
23 are the existing dirt roads from the mining.
24 We are using -- we made -- well, we
25 didn't make, but this is a parking lot that was
49
1 there like -- I believe it was their staging area.
2 I have pictures to show you what's there today and
3 has been. So these are dirt roads that we do ride
4 on, but we ride everywhere within the dirt roads.
5 Okay? There are pits, there are quarries, there
6 are hills and stuff, there's collection basins.
7 They're not wetlands, they're collections for the
8 runoffs and stuff.
9 We went over that with DEP and Soil
10 Conservation. They said, that doesn't count,
11 that's fine, you guys can do whatever you want in
12 there. And mining also said, this is a good
13 alternative, or reclamating the mining, okay, by
14 having the ATV stuff going on there. Okay? So
15 trail-wise, yes. And I will probably be submitting
16 exactly what you see here.
17 All this, we don't even touch.
18 There's a 52 -- which we'll probably put in here,
19 there's 52 acres of moth sanctuary which we go
20 nowhere near that at all. So all this white
21 vastness we don't even touch. So you're gonna get
22 the map and it's gonna be pretty much like this and
23 that's all the trails in Tobyhanna.
24 MR. SINCAVAGE: Yes, that's all we
25 want to see.
50
1 MR. BAXTER: That's all the trails
2 where you do go into Pocono Township.
3 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: That's over
4 here, yes. That's where the bulk of the trail
5 system is.
6 MR. BAXTER: So how do you connect?
7 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: Right by the
8 power line that's here. This goes all the way
9 through and all the way out and back again.
10 MR. MILLER: You're allowed to ride
11 the power line?
12 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: Correct. Now,
13 we do have -- we have a water crossing or a
14 wetlands crossing. We have a permit, we're getting
15 that all done and everything. We have a temporary
16 crossing now so we don't have sediment going down
17 into Swiftwater. That's been in place pretty much
18 since we got there.
19 MR. SINCAVAGE: Okay. So under the
20 natural features it looks like the board of
21 supervisors suggested waiving all those.
22 MS. LAMBERTON: I would like to see
23 the wetlands depicted.
24 MR. SINCAVAGE: Right. That was one
25 thing that was required.
51
1 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: Yeah, I don't
2 have a problem with that. And they're on --
3 they're already on this particular --
4 MS. LAMBERTON: But that's an issue
5 especially with DEP.
6 MR. SINCAVAGE: So we do want to see
7 wetlands delineated. You understand that?
8 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: You mean with
9 all the --
10 MS. LAMBERTON: Not delineated, just
11 depicted on the plan.
12 MR. SINCAVAGE: Depicted on the
13 plan? I just want to verify something here. Under
14 the board of supervisors' request, the second item
15 is, delineate wetland areas, N.W. maps are
16 acceptable. Is that what you're referring to is
17 the national --
18 MS. HAASE: Wetlands inventory.
19 MR. SINCAVAGE: That's what you're
20 referring to, you're going to show that?
21 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: I can, yes. We
22 already have that. I already have, I believe, what
23 they're talking about, yes. We have the wetland
24 maps for the entire property. And I could submit
25 them as secondary maps or you want them all on one
52
1 map?
2 MR. SINCAVAGE: Yes, we'd like to
3 see everything on one map as much as you can. And
4 we understand it might get a little cloudy, but we
5 want to see -- and we want to just see the
6 depiction of the wetland area.
7 MS. LAMBERTON: Yeah, I would be
8 happy with that, yes.
9 MR. SINCAVAGE: Okay. What else?
10 Anything else, Anne?
11 MS. LAMBERTON: No, we can continue.
12 MR. SINCAVAGE: Anyone else?
13 So we're gonna leave in, what is
14 that, D, location of existing wetlands, swamps,
15 marshes, watercourses, including intermittent
16 streams, wooded area and other pertinent natural
17 presubmission conference features.
18 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: Yeah, I put
19 that.
20 MS. HAASE: And, Mr. Chairman,
21 you're fine with them referencing the NWI maps as
22 well?
23 MR. SINCAVAGE: Are we okay with
24 that?
25 MS. LAMBERTON: Mm-hmm.
53
1 MR. BAXTER: Yeah.
2 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: Utilities?
3 Well, that's going to be -- power lines will be on
4 there, telephone. Storm sewers, including
5 culverts, giving dimensions, grades and direction
6 of flows. Well, if there's nothing that exists,
7 then we would put nonexistent, right, on the map, a
8 note on the map?
9 MR. SINCAVAGE: Yep, that's fine.
10 You can just go down this list and say does not
11 exist.
12 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: Okay, so then
13 that's how we would handle that. No. 4, proposed
14 improvements, we only have one and that's a shed
15 that we are actually putting on the property.
16 Everything else, the parking areas are existing.
17 MR. SINCAVAGE: Wait, wait, did we
18 skip over four?
19 MS. LAMBERTON: Four we're doing.
20 MR. SINCAVAGE: I'm sorry, five.
21 Waterlines, giving dimensions and elevations; we're
22 going to skip that. Fences. Are there any fences
23 out there?
24 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: No, no fences.
25 MR. SINCAVAGE: Okay, so you're
54
1 skipping to No. 4, which is proposed improvements
2 and use. Go ahead.
3 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: The design and
4 location of all the uses and use areas not
5 requiring structures. Design the location of all
6 the uses? I guess I don't understand that one.
7 MR. SINCAVAGE: You have to show
8 your parking areas.
9 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: Oh, okay, like I
10 have, okay.
11 MR. SINCAVAGE: Do you require
12 handicapped parking spaces?
13 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: Do we require?
14 MR. SINCAVAGE: Is it required to
15 have parking spaces? It's probably required by ADA
16 to have handicapped parking space, I assume.
17 MS. HAASE: I can verify that with
18 Bureau Veritas?
19 MR. SINCAVAGE: If it's required
20 under the Uniform Building Code, which the township
21 and everyone, the Commonwealth, follows, that will
22 have to be shown in your parking lot.
23 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: How does that
24 work again? I'm just curious, it's a park. It's
25 -- don't get many handicapped people riding ATVs,
55
1 and I don't know what -- and they'd need a big
2 parking area. Okay, we'll figure that out, I
3 guess.
4 MR. BAXTER: It might be just one
5 designated spot.
6 MR. SINCAVAGE: And you might have
7 to have a handicapped toilet too. That's something
8 you've gotta verify with Bureau Veritas, you want
9 to contact them.
10 That would be one of my conditions
11 is, they should be -- make sure they're in
12 conformity with Bureau Veritas. So you understand
13 what's required there?
14 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: Mm-hmm.
15 MRS. LESLIE NOVAK: That there're
16 handicapped Porta-Johns?
17 MS. HAASE: Yes.
18 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: B, the location
19 of proposed buildings or structures, that's yes, no
20 problem. C, the design and location of all outdoor
21 signs. We will have that on there. The design and
22 location of driveways, parking -- again, if it
23 doesn't exist or we're not putting it in, then
24 don't show it?
25 MR. SINCAVAGE: Then don't show it.
56
1 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: Then don't show
2 it, okay. Okay, well, then that's how we will
3 handle D through H. No. 5, certainly. We'll have
4 that information.
5 MR. SINCAVAGE: Right.
6 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: And then No. 6,
7 I believe would be --
8 MS. LAMBERTON: Except for -- I'm
9 sorry, going back to 4-G and the deed restrictions,
10 Mark, didn't you have a question on that?
11 MR. BAXTER: That's included.
12 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: That's included.
13 It's kind of written twice because --
14 MS. LAMBERTON: Okay, I'm sorry.
15 MR. SINCAVAGE: It is sometimes
16 mentioned twice, you're correct.
17 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: I may also
18 request that, we're using the existing parking
19 area. I believe you have photographs there.
20 MR. SINCAVAGE: Mm-hmm.
21 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: If -- we're
22 trying to do the least amount of impact to the
23 property --
24 MR. SINCAVAGE: Mm-hmm.
25 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: -- which we've
57
1 been doing since we've been operating. And under
2 some of the ordinance they maybe -- hopefully you
3 don't require us to put a tarred parking lot there,
4 macadam.
5 MR. SINCAVAGE: That I'm not sure
6 about. That's something that we have to check
7 into. I raised that issue actually today.
8 Unfortunately our engineer wasn't available so I
9 couldn't question him about that, but I did raise
10 that question. The township will have to get you
11 an answer for that.
12 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: If I may add or
13 at least offer, worst-case scenario, I think it
14 could be waived down to stone.
15 MS. HAASE: The board of
16 supervisors, even though it's in the zoning
17 ordinance, the board of supervisors have the right,
18 if so choose, to waive.
19 MR. SINCAVAGE: But that would be
20 the board of supervisors, that's not us.
21 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: Oh, that's not
22 you. But if I show you some nice pictures, can you
23 make a recommendation and say, hey, I think it
24 fits? What I'm trying to give you -- I'll give you
25 this. I took pictures of Dixon Miller and we're
58
1 very similar to their activities and stuff.
2 And the pictures will show you --
3 that's their entrance, that is their parking
4 facilities, which looks exactly like the pictures
5 of us, and then this parking facility is showing
6 one Porta-John. I don't know how many people visit
7 that area. And ours kind of -- ours looks exactly
8 like that. So if I may just at least -- that's the
9 handicap, that's the only one they have.
10 MR. SINCAVAGE: They have to check
11 and see if that's an issue. These are very nice
12 roads and a very nice parking lot, because I know
13 who constructed them.
14 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: Well, if I may
15 give you one more, this is the newly built, I
16 guess, Austin T. Blakeslee Natural Area. And that
17 is their parking lot and they have absolutely no
18 sanitary facility. I'm not sure if that's
19 completed yet. I'm only giving that as a reference
20 because that looks exactly like what we already
21 have there and I'm trying to at least --
22 MR. SINCAVAGE: They're nice, right?
23 MS. LAMBERTON: Beautiful.
24 Outstanding.
25 MR. SINCAVAGE: Okay, and then there
59
1 was additional -- I want to have a conversation
2 with the township engineer before I would suggest
3 that we make a recommendation if that's okay with
4 the board.
5 MS. LAMBERTON: Yeah. I want to
6 hear --
7 MR. SINCAVAGE: I want to hear what
8 Bob has to say about that before we make a
9 recommendation on that. There was additional items
10 required by the board of supervisors that they will
11 also be requiring. The delineated wetlands, we
12 already talked about; restrictions on the area
13 related to the protective moth, which you've
14 already referenced; NPDES permit; stream crossing,
15 copy of the lease; location and size of the
16 building; location of mud holes; and the aerial
17 view. And you can refer to MSN bird eye view type
18 of -- it's a scenario of the site.
19 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: What's the
20 NPDES? What is that?
21 MR. SINCAVAGE: That's your permit
22 that you're getting from the conservation district.
23 If you'd like me to tell you, it's the National
24 Pollutant Discharge Elimination System permit.
25 MS. HAASE: Mr. Novak, also, the
60
1 structure that is currently placed there is
2 320 square feet?
3 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: Oh, yes, it's 12
4 by 28.
5 MS. HAASE: The ordinance states
6 anything over 200 square feet requires land
7 development. I understand that we have tossed back
8 and forth about possibly amending that, but
9 currently that is how it stands. So Mr. Novak did
10 question me about how possibly he could obtain a
11 waiver for the extra hundred and twenty square feet
12 so he would not be required to go land development.
13 If the board does not do that, he is
14 willing to remove the existing structure and
15 replace it with a smaller shed.
16 MR. SINCAVAGE: Is that in zoning?
17 MS. HAASE: That is in zoning.
18 MR. SINCAVAGE: So that's up to the
19 board of supervisors. Do you want to make a
20 recommendation on that?
21 MR. BAXTER: Yeah. I would
22 recommend that we support the variance on that.
23 MR. SINCAVAGE: A waiver?
24 MR. BAXTER: A waiver, I'm sorry.
25 MR. SINCAVAGE: I'm sorry, you may
61
1 be right. If it's zoning, it's variance.
2 MS. HAASE: It's in zoning and in
3 SALDO. The area that speaks to -- I'm sorry, that
4 was my mistake. It's in both. However, in Chapter
5 135 is where it speaks to --
6 MR. SINCAVAGE: Requirement for a
7 land development plan.
8 MS. HAASE: Correct. In zoning it
9 speaks to the zoning officer only has the authority
10 to authorize a permit up to 200 square feet in a
11 commercial district, so that is under the zoning
12 officer's duties. So anything over 200 square feet
13 I do not.
14 MR. BAXTER: So I would recommend
15 supporting the existing shed size in whatever
16 capacity that takes with zoning and planning.
17 MS. LAMBERTON: Does it currently
18 have a valid permit to be there?
19 MS. HAASE: The permit is pending.
20 MS. LAMBERTON: So that's a no?
21 MS. HAASE: That is correct.
22 MR. BAXTER: Because of the
23 application process.
24 MS. LAMBERTON: I understand that.
25 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: Everything's all
62
1 kind of --
2 MS. LAMBERTON: I understand, but
3 it's been there since '07, right?
4 MRS. LESLIE NOVAK: No.
5 MS. LAMBERTON: Your shed hasn't
6 been there since '07?
7 MRS. LESLIE NOVAK: No.
8 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: No.
9 MS. HAASE: I believe it was summer
10 of 2008 possibly.
11 MRS. LESLIE NOVAK: Yeah.
12 MS. HAASE: And I think that that
13 was something else that triggered the Manor to
14 moving forward with the direction that they were
15 opting to go.
16 MS. LAMBERTON: With rezoning?
17 MS. HAASE: Yes, ma'am.
18 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: For this little
19 shed? This little shed? On 192 acres it's a
20 speck. I understand.
21 MR. SINCAVAGE: It's in our zoning,
22 we have to follow the zoning. We can only follow
23 the rules.
24 MS. LAMBERTON: Is there anywhere
25 that we'll see the setbacks from the trail, from
63
1 Sullivan Trail, depicted? Like is there a survey
2 or anything that's required?
3 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: Not required.
4 If you can bring that back up.
5 MS. HAASE: This one actually shows
6 the power line, correct?
7 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: Yeah. Oh,
8 that's not -- I guess the map we'll end up doing
9 will be this one. To give you an idea of a buffer,
10 it's well over 500 -- if you can read that, it's
11 500 and -- this line is like 500 and some odd feet,
12 this line right here. Okay? And this is all solid
13 wood trees of an equivalent of that line. There's
14 over 500 of solid wood trees.
15 MR. MILLER: So you don't go over
16 this side of the power line?
17 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: No. We have one
18 trail that goes right in here, that comes back out,
19 a very short one little trail. That's it.
20 MR. BAXTER: So you would show that?
21 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: Yeah, I would
22 show that coming out right here and then going back
23 in. And, again, the worst case is, it's well over
24 400 feet of solid wood before you even see Sullivan
25 Trail -- hit Sullivan Trail.
64
1 MR. SINCAVAGE: Is the conservation
2 district requiring you to show the trail system?
3 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: On over here for
4 my E&S plan I think they asked me if I could
5 superimpose it to the best of our ability.
6 MR. SINCAVAGE: That's what we're
7 saying, we want to see the trail system.
8 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: There's only one
9 more little short thing missing from here, from
10 this map.
11 MR. SINCAVAGE: We want to see the
12 whole trail system that's there in Tobyhanna
13 Township.
14 MS. LAMBERTON: We're concerned with
15 Tobyhanna Township.
16 MR. SINCAVAGE: Is there any other
17 condition that the commission would like to suggest
18 or in addition to what the supervisors suggested
19 that we have gone over so far?
20 MR. BAXTER: Does erosion and
21 sedimentation bring up the issue of dust anywhere?
22 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: E&S, not to the
23 best of my knowledge.
24 MR. SINCAVAGE: Our ordinance has
25 that in it, but it's not under this conditional use
65
1 section?
2 MS. HAASE: This section is solely
3 what the applicant needs to submit for the
4 conditional use hearing. So if there is a concern
5 from the planning commission or the board of
6 supervisors regarding dust control or hours of
7 operation or et cetera, those would be conditions
8 or stipulations placed on at the time of the
9 hearing. This is solely so the applicant knows
10 what information to put on this plan or their plan.
11 MR. MILLER: You don't get too dusty
12 anyway, do you?
13 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: We had -- I
14 think it was a year ago we had an incident where
15 the wind -- it depends on where the wind blows.
16 Under normal, most conditions, no, we don't get
17 really bad. But we identified a situation that was
18 close to 380. There was a trail, not by us, again,
19 it was existing, very close to 380 and a mound, a
20 hump. Okay. I think Phyllis had called me and
21 said go check it out, there seems to be dust
22 flowing over 380.
23 So when we went and looked at it, it
24 was. And by identifying or closing down that trail
25 and then cording off the hump and letting
66
1 vegetation grow on it and not letting anybody ride
2 that close to 380, we have heard no more problems
3 with dust. 'Cause most of that is kind of like in
4 a hole.
5 MR. SINCAVAGE: Well, I would think
6 that if you're staying 500 feet away from any
7 property line, which includes 380, you have
8 sufficient buffer.
9 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: Well, we're not
10 that far away from 380. We're not gonna be that
11 far, as far as the buffer goes. We're probably
12 about --
13 MR. SINCAVAGE: Can I see your
14 orange map again?
15 MS. LAMBERTON: They're pretty
16 close.
17 MR. SINCAVAGE: You have the park
18 area there?
19 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: That was another
20 solution, by putting in overflow parking if we need
21 it and having cars parked there, which you will see
22 that from time to time off of 380, it also prevents
23 the riders from even riding in that section.
24 MR. SINCAVAGE: Well, that's
25 something that could be addressed during the
67
1 conditional use hearing.
2 MS. HAASE: Yes, sir.
3 MR. MILLER: Do your riders care
4 about dust?
5 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: Yes. If it gets
6 too dusty, it's not as much fun. So you'll find on
7 the really super hot days and real dusty, what'll
8 end up is, they'll end up staying into the woods
9 and trail system rather than play in the more sandy
10 pit area.
11 MR. SINCAVAGE: Do you offer any
12 concessions? Food? Drink?
13 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: No. That's a
14 whole 'nother permit situation that we would have
15 to go through. I don't think we ever came in and
16 asked you for anything like that, but -- it's
17 too -- you need -- I think you need sanitary -- I
18 mean, fresh water or something to clean and, so no.
19 MRS. LESLIE NOVAK: No.
20 MR. SINCAVAGE: So the people just
21 bring a lunch or --
22 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: Yeah, they bring
23 their own lunch.
24 MRS. LESLIE NOVAK: They pack out
25 everything they pack in.
68
1 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: They'll picnic.
2 MR. SINCAVAGE: She's talking again.
3 MRS. LESLIE NOVAK: Sorry.
4 MR. SINCAVAGE: You can talk, if you
5 want, but I just need your name for the record.
6 MRS. LESLIE NOVAK: Sorry. Leslie
7 Novak. I may pop out with something.
8 MR. SINCAVAGE: Go ahead.
9 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: Yeah, they're
10 allowed to picnic. It's like a day at the beach,
11 they bring their coolers and stuff. Occasionally
12 we may sell some water, a beverage or something, or
13 candy or my daughter sometimes will bake cookies
14 and stuff; but other than that, we don't have a
15 concession or anything. We've been asked to have
16 it, yes.
17 MR. SINCAVAGE: So the bathrooms are
18 really provided as a convenience for the riders.
19 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: Correct.
20 MS. HAASE: The applicant would need
21 to provide facilities because it is viewed as a
22 temporary seasonal business. They would not be
23 required to perk the land or -- Porta-Potties would
24 be acceptable.
25 MR. SINCAVAGE: Any other questions?
69
1 Do you have any other questions of
2 the commission?
3 Any questions from the public?
4 Wendy, public?
5 All right. Good luck. We'll watch
6 for your submission.
7 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: Thank you very
8 much.
9 MRS. LESLIE NOVAK: Thank you.
10 MR. SINCAVAGE: We'll help you go
11 through this process quickly because you are a
12 benefit to the township and I think we recognize
13 that, you know, we want to support commercial
14 business in the area and you are doing that so --
15 MR. BAXTER: I would also encourage
16 you because I think you're taking a very
17 responsible approach to a sport that often gets a
18 bad rap, and we have had issues around the
19 township. Just down the road to Pocono Township,
20 it's the same neighborhood, we have a lot of ATV
21 use that's abusive. And I've personally said lots
22 of times we need to have a place for them to go.
23 And I'm really glad to see that -- the approach
24 you're taking for this.
25 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: I appreciate
70
1 that. Thank you. We tried to get -- I went to
2 Chief Lewis to see if he had records of the
3 infractions of ATV and unfortunately they do not
4 keep their records in such a manner that he could
5 identify that situation. But I thought it would
6 have been interesting to get some statistics for
7 that but couldn't get it.
8 MR. BAXTER: Well, one of the places
9 that the township just purchased 85 acres,
10 additional to the Blakeslee Natural Area, and
11 there's a lot of ATV use on that site, which now
12 can be darted to someplace else. And I'm glad to
13 see it, personally.
14 MR. MILLER: How many miles of
15 trails will you have?
16 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: Uhm, never
17 really measured it, to be honest with you. They
18 were all existing that were there. I mean, it was
19 all kinds of trails and logging roads that are all
20 on that property. Enough if they -- and we have a
21 one-way trail system. Very safe. It's all the
22 difference in the world that you don't have this
23 head-on situation.
24 But it also forces us to control the
25 routing of the riders and we can make a small less
71
1 trail system seem like a much bigger place because
2 we're forcing you to go one way. And we may have
3 different trails off that and you might have to
4 circle back to come back to pick the trail that you
5 decided not to take again. So many times you're
6 riding the same -- parts of the same trail two,
7 three, or four times to get to the other trails and
8 then that makes the park appear to be much larger
9 than it really is.
10 And it would take -- I don't think
11 you can ride all of it, if you tried, in one day.
12 Yeah, you couldn't do it in one day if you followed
13 the map and tried to do every single trail. And
14 speed is kept to a minimum by way of making them
15 very intricate S effects that you can't get up
16 enough speed to do it.
17 I mean, we got yelled at. We had --
18 in our rules we do state recommended speed limit is
19 25 miles per hour and people are going -- I said,
20 you could try it, but you can't do it because, you
21 know, it's the interesting S turns and everything
22 in the trail system.
23 And if you ever came out on a
24 weekend you would see the amount of families, it's
25 unbelievable, these little 50s with these little
72
1 kids on it. It's like a day at the beach, it
2 really is, for the families. And we have many,
3 many comments.
4 And we've had our share of people
5 that we've had to pretty much ban from the park,
6 the same bad element that comes around, and they're
7 shocked. I mean, my son does a lot of the
8 patrolling. And I think one day there was a group
9 of 17 of them. They weren't in the park ten
10 minutes and he kicked them out and banned them to
11 arrays of applause in the parking lot by all the
12 other people. And, you know, just simple common
13 sense stuff and they wouldn't adhere to it.
14 MRS. LESLIE NOVAK: Courtesy.
15 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: So we do patrol
16 and try to keep it very friendly and safe.
17 MR. MILLER: I'm familiar with the
18 trail. I snowboard in the Adirondacks, so it's
19 sort of similar, but it's more stretched out.
20 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: Yeah, you get to
21 go a lot faster than we do.
22 MS. HAASE: Mr. Novak, you put
23 together a nice presentation.
24 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: Thank you. I
25 appreciate it.
73
1 MR. SINCAVAGE: Thank you for your
2 cooperation.
3 Anything else?
4 Anything else coming before this
5 commission tonight? If not, we stand adjourned.
6 Thank you.
7 (Meeting concluded at 8:20 p.m.)
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7 I hereby certify that the
8 proceedings are contained fully and accurately, to
9 the best of my ability, in the notes taken by me at
10 the meeting in the above matter; and that the
11 foregoing is a true and correct transcript of the
12 same.
13
14
15 _____________________________
16 EVILYS E. BRATHWAITE
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