Before
THE TOBYHANNA TOWNSHIP BOARD OF SUPERVISORS
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In Re: Regular Business Meeting
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Tobyhanna Township Government Center Building
State Avenue
Pocono Pines, Pennsylvania 18350
Monday, July 6, 2009, beginning at 4:47 p.m.
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PRESENT: JOHN E. KERRICK, Chairperson
HEIDI A. PICKARD, Vice-Chairperson
DONALD J. MOYER, Board Member
ANNE LAMBERTON, Board Member
JAMIE B. KEENER, Board Member
JOHN B. RICE, ESQUIRE, Solicitor
ALSO PRESENT: PHYLLIS HAASE, Zoning Officer
JOHN BROGAN, Sewage Enforcement Officer
ED TUTRONE, President of Volunteer
Firefighters' Relief Association
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______________________________________________________
PANKO REPORTING
537 Sarah Street, 2nd Floor
Stroudsburg, Pennsylvania 18360
(570) 421-3620
2
1 MR. KERRICK: I'd like to call the
2 meeting to order with a pledge of allegiance,
3 please.
4 (Pledge of Allegiance was recited.)
5 MR. KERRICK: First item,
6 announcements.
7 Do you have any, Heidi?
8 MS. PICKARD: I did have one item
9 that I wanted to bring up. We had an applicant
10 request to get a reissuance of the sewer permit and
11 we had -- it was in the old section of Lake Naomi
12 and I had gotten a letter from Jeff.
13 MR. KERRICK: That's really not
14 announcements. Wouldn't that be new business?
15 MS. PICKARD: If you want me to, I
16 can bring it up later.
17 MR. KERRICK: Yeah. No
18 announcements.
19 Consider the minutes of May 11,
20 2009, regular business meeting. Is there a motion?
21 MR. KEENER: So moved.
22 MR. KERRICK: Is there a second?
23 MR. MOYER: Second.
24 MR. KERRICK: Motion and second.
25 Questions or comments from the board?
3
1 Questions or comments from the
2 public?
3 Call the vote.
4 Jamie?
5 MR. KEENER: I vote in favor.
6 MR. KERRICK: Anne?
7 MS. LAMBERTON: I vote in favor.
8 MR. KERRICK: Donny?
9 MR. MOYER: I vote in favor.
10 MR. KERRICK: Heidi?
11 MS. PICKARD: I vote in favor.
12 MR. KERRICK: I'll vote in favor.
13 Motion carried.
14 Next item on the agenda, consider
15 the treasurer's report. Total amount for board
16 approval, $761,902.83.
17 MS. PICKARD: I make a motion that
18 we approve the July 6 bill pack in the amount
19 $761,902.83.
20 MR. KEENER: Second.
21 MR. KERRICK: Motion and second.
22 Questions or comments?
23 Questions or comments from the
24 public?
25 The bill pack is on the side, if
4
1 anyone would like to take a look. At this time
2 I'll call the vote.
3 Jamie?
4 MR. KEENER: I vote in favor.
5 MR. KERRICK: Anne?
6 MS. LAMBERTON: I vote in favor.
7 MR. KERRICK: Donny?
8 MR. MOYER: I vote in favor.
9 MR. KERRICK: Heidi?
10 MS. PICKARD: I vote in favor.
11 MR. KERRICK: I vote in favor.
12 Motion carried.
13 Next item, solicitor's report.
14 MR. RICE: Nothing new.
15 MR. KERRICK: Perfect.
16 New business.
17 MR. RICE: Other than what's on the
18 agenda.
19 MR. KERRICK: It's all yours.
20 MS. PICKARD: We had a request for a
21 sewage permit that had been issued back in 2004 if
22 they wanted a reissuance of the permit. In that
23 old section of Lake Naomi we had those two 50-foot
24 strip lots and we've gone back and forth with
25 issues on lot consolidation. I had a map of the
5
1 GIS from the county, which they seemed to erase all
2 the lines in between those except for like these
3 four parcels in this Section 2. This one has been
4 since consolidated, they had a third lot.
5 We have a survey from Martin &
6 Robbins which does not indicate the line, but they
7 do have two tax parcel IDs. This is (inaudible) 86
8 and decided that she's not gonna build any longer
9 and wanted to renew the permit. This wasn't a
10 consolidation of two building lots.
11 And I got a letter from Jeff saying
12 that it was -- the lots were sold as one building
13 parcel and it's in their deed restrictions that
14 they need a total of 12,500 square foot for a lot.
15 They are on one deed, but, again, the zoning
16 officer's concern is that the county shows a line
17 and has issued two different tax numbers so they do
18 need to be consolidated. Bill finds there'd be an
19 issue with building setbacks.
20 MS. HAASE: They're two separate
21 lots.
22 MS. PICKARD: They're two separate
23 lots. I was asking if we could just go through our
24 old consolidation process. It made it a little bit
25 more complicated to erase the lot lines if we could
6
1 just have her -- send the hundred dollars in and
2 have the deed reissued. We need the new deed to
3 say that the lots cannot be --
4 MR. KERRICK: I believe this we've
5 done many times.
6 MS. PICKARD: Like I said, if you
7 look at the county GIS, they were all combined
8 except for just a couple. For some reason I
9 can't --
10 MR. KERRICK: Are we sure that it
11 still exists?
12 MS. PICKARD: It exists according to
13 the county, and there are -- even though they're on
14 one deed, they're still showing two separate tax
15 parcel numbers.
16 MR. RICE: And we want to make sure
17 that they're only used as one building lot; is that
18 the issue?
19 MS. HAASE: Yes.
20 MR. KERRICK: I would seek whatever
21 we could do to --
22 MS. PICKARD: And, like I said, they
23 did issue the permit previously on that and had --
24 you know, according to the township reviewed it,
25 John had viewed it at that time as one lot and the
7
1 survey that was done by Martin & Robbins doesn't
2 indicate that there's a line on that. And also
3 then in -- you know, probably because all the lots
4 in this area were -- it's more of an anomaly and I
5 would --
6 MR. KERRICK: How can we simplify
7 this for the applicant?
8 MR. RICE: Does the current deed --
9 I haven't looked at it, so does the current deed
10 have both parcels separately described in it?
11 MS. HAASE: Yes.
12 MR. RICE: I mean, the easiest
13 thing, if we could have them just do another deed
14 for themselves and put a deed restriction in there
15 applying to both lots that says, these two parcels,
16 you know, notwithstanding two separate numbers, are
17 the single building and that they can't be used for
18 anything more than one single-family dwelling.
19 MS. HAASE: That's basically what
20 the county requires.
21 MS. PICKARD: And that's essentially
22 what the county requires.
23 MR. RICE: Yeah, I mean, that would
24 be the simplest way to go.
25 MS. PICKARD: So we could just have
8
1 her do that and go through the process without it
2 coming back before the board?
3 MS. HAASE: Yes.
4 MS. PICKARD: That's how we had done
5 these lots previously.
6 MR. RICE: Show the deed, make sure
7 the deed says what it should say before it gets
8 recorded.
9 MS. PICKARD: Okay.
10 MR. KERRICK: Thank you, Heidi.
11 Next item, Lost Trails, application
12 for conditional use.
13 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: My name is Tony
14 Novak and I brought my wife with me, Leslie Novak.
15 I'm the president of Lost Trails and my wife is the
16 vice president of Lost Trails. Can I remove this?
17 MR. KERRICK: Sure.
18 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: I think you all
19 have a part of our packet that -- hopefully you do.
20 Our proposal is -- it deals with a piece of
21 property that's just newly been rezoned by Pocono
22 Manor, by Tobyhanna Township, along Sullivan Trail,
23 and you have a map and I have it outlined here.
24 This is 192 acres that was rezoned
25 at the last meeting. We are currently utilizing
9
1 this piece of property and we're also utilizing
2 about 1200 acres that's in Pocono Township. So for
3 this purpose of illustration I'm showing you that,
4 and Tobyhanna -- it's a small piece that we're
5 actually using. Okay? I had the piece blown up
6 here.
7 What I have outlined is the boundary
8 between Pocono Township, Tobyhanna Township, it
9 goes along Sullivan Trail, and then the other side
10 of us would be Route 380. Okay? The property does
11 not go all the way back to the creek, though I
12 should have drew a line like that through here.
13 The orange that you see are existing
14 trails or the existing entryway or dirt roads that
15 are on the property itself. And out of the 192
16 acres, though, we are only utilizing 35 acres of
17 it, which is just this area right here. The rest
18 we don't even touch as far as our activity goes.
19 And if I could do the oral, the
20 proposed outdoor recreation is for a
21 family-oriented ATV trail riding facility. The
22 property consists of existing trails, dirt roads,
23 and parking areas that were left over from the
24 property's previous uses, which is a surface mining
25 on that piece of property.
10
1 The site contains about 192 acres
2 with various elevation changes that is desirous for
3 ATV riders. And a primary usage of the property
4 will be used for the parking and staging, which
5 will be the loading and unloading of the ATVs. And
6 only 35 of the 192 acres, as I stated, will be used
7 for actual riding on this piece of property.
8 The exhibits -- I have some photos
9 that I had left there in the packet. I'll call
10 them Exhibit A, which was just to show you the
11 entrance from Sullivan Trail. You have those? And
12 then the actual existing parking lot that was
13 there, it was used as the loading and unloading of
14 the trucks during the mining of that piece of
15 property. That's already on the property and has
16 been there.
17 And the second group of pictures,
18 we're showing you -- we do have a shed that we put
19 on there. I took a picture of it; it's just used
20 for check-in of the members. And we also have
21 three Porta-Johns that are on the property right
22 next to the shed. So primarily you've got a
23 picture of what's going on and the activity there
24 on the existing pieces.
25 MS. PICKARD: What is the size of
11
1 the shed?
2 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: The shed is 12
3 by 28, and we would be asking for a variance, if at
4 all possible, or we simply -- it's just a roll-off
5 shed, as you can see, where we just pick it up and
6 we put one that would fit within the regulations.
7 All right. The property abuts to an additional
8 1200 acres, which is right over here, and it's
9 being used -- primarily that's where our trailers
10 are, in Pocono Township.
11 Now, the nature of our operation is
12 to promote a secure, legal, and organized
13 environment for families to experience
14 reasonable -- responsible ATV riding. The facility
15 is open five days, Thursday through Monday. The
16 hours of operation would be nine to five.
17 And I do have a correction on here.
18 My wife had reminded me that we do take vacations.
19 We are closed, but we're not a four season
20 recreational because we are closed beginning
21 November, just before the holiday, Thanksgiving,
22 and we are closed from Thanksgiving through
23 December. And then we normally reopen in January
24 through April only on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday.
25 Okay? So I just need you to note that correction
12
1 on your piece.
2 Responsible ATV riding is maintained
3 and encouraged by the following: We do require
4 proper riding gear at all times such as helmets and
5 goggles. There are signage and directional arrows
6 on all the trailways. There are barriers in place
7 to keep the riders within the property boundary and
8 out of any sensitive environment areas or
9 neighboring property. Our security does patrol the
10 trail several times a day offering assistance and
11 ensuring all riders keep a safety protocol while
12 visiting the facility.
13 ATV sound levels are kept within
14 DCNR guidelines, 99 decibels, which is measured at
15 20 inches. I do have a additional submittals for
16 you to back that statement up. These are the
17 Pennsylvania ATV vehicle laws, and I just -- I'll
18 put a star next to equipment, and that's where they
19 state it. So if you were to ride at any of the
20 state parks, your machine needs to adhere to that.
21 All ATVs have a Lost Trails safety
22 identification flag. I brought a sample. We had
23 realized that when we were gonna propose this that
24 we would probably be blamed for every ATV problem
25 there is in the township, whether it is the
13
1 existing problems of renegades riding all over the
2 place and anything new.
3 Every ATV member that rides at our
4 place must have this attached to their vehicle;
5 it's for identification and for safety. And for
6 two reasons, it's a quick identification for my
7 patrol people to ensure that those people belong on
8 the property. It has become useful if, I should
9 say, defending ourselves.
10 If you see any ATVs riding on roads,
11 other people's properties, and they do not bear
12 this flag, it is not our members. So it has come
13 in helpful in the reverse effect and we're kind of
14 happy about that. So they all have this. They
15 must have it. I didn't put that in your packet, I
16 don't think. It didn't fit.
17 We're also providing the DCNR ATV
18 safety course by a certified safety instructor,
19 which is myself; I am a certified ATV safety
20 instructor from DCNR, plus two of our other
21 members. Within your packet is a letter stating my
22 certification.
23 Children between the ages of eight
24 and sixteen must have a safety instruction course
25 to ride an ATV. If they're gonna ride on
14
1 properties in the Commonwealth or on any of the
2 state parks. Okay? And we will be having those
3 classes shortly. This will be a community benefit.
4 We also feel that our proposal is
5 consistent with the Monroe County Comprehensive
6 Plan in that it proposes keeping the large acreage
7 dedicated for recreational activities. This has
8 newly been zoned commercial. As long as we're
9 there, this will be recreational, and also the
10 1200 acres next to it.
11 It also will conserve the
12 environmental quality that is the county's
13 principal attraction for the visitors and residents
14 alike. It will contribute -- contributes to
15 property as one of the forms of open space
16 preservation. Again, if we're still there, there
17 will be no construction going on there.
18 It aids in contributing towards a
19 commercial agenda and the tourism industry, which
20 is the third largest level of visitor spending and
21 employment of any Pennsylvania county after
22 Philadelphia and Allegheny.
23 It assists in preserving an area
24 with high scenic value of superior views of the
25 Monroe County landscape. And what I'm talking
15
1 about is unfortunately not in Tobyhanna Township,
2 but on this 1200 acres, if you went back by Back
3 Mountain and Summit Drive, the view up there is
4 spectacular. And it can only be experienced
5 through the trail system, which you could see the
6 entire Camelback ski area, the Gap, and all the
7 surrounding areas from up there.
8 The proposed outdoor recreational
9 use of the property will avert residential squall
10 on both the 192 acres, again, 'cause we are there.
11 And as long as we're there, the 1200 acres will not
12 be developed upon.
13 The proposal coincides with one of
14 the primary principles that will recently adopt the
15 strategic plan, prepared by the Pocono Mountain
16 Vacation Bureau, which outlines the need to focus
17 on providing a quality experience at all Pocono
18 Mountain attractions and properties.
19 It supports the tourism industry in
20 its effort to upgrade facilities and respond to
21 changing trends, which will be an important
22 component of the county's economic development
23 effort. A big change in trend is the recognition
24 that ATV, as a recreation use, is becoming a very
25 big family oriented activity.
16
1 The states are discussing opening up
2 more trails, extending their trails, and they've
3 already had in some state parks. So we'll be
4 adding to that right here in Tobyhanna Township.
5 Now, environmental, The Lost Trails
6 is working with DEP and Monroe County Soil
7 Conservation to identify sensitive areas and
8 developing an E&S plan and maintaining an
9 environmentally friendly facility. I gave you in
10 Exhibit D, which is a letter from Johnny Motz from
11 Soil Conservation; we'll be meeting with him
12 shortly to outline some BMPs and identifying
13 sensitive areas and how we need to proceed with
14 that.
15 Now, for local community support,
16 I've been coming to some of these meetings and
17 sitting in the back. And we were not part of the
18 agenda, but somehow we got involved with it. I
19 personally went out and identified the local
20 development -- the closest development to us, which
21 would be Blueberry Estates, which is right here
22 across from us. However, there is about a
23 500-foot, if not more, buffer from the trail, in
24 orange that you see here, of completely solid
25 woods.
17
1 But I went door to door to ask their
2 opinions and have them sign a document. And some
3 people who were here, which I have now discovered
4 were very few people who were here, they were just
5 loud. I have submitted to you a statement which I
6 would like to read. I'm not gonna read the names,
7 but I'll read the statement.
8 And it simply reads: To whom it may
9 concern, as a property owner of Tobyhanna Township,
10 I believe having a designated area for ATV riding
11 will cut back on the illegal riding on our roads,
12 on our private properties, and within our
13 developments. We feel The Lost Trails ATV
14 Adventures is benefiting our township and the
15 surrounding area because they are providing a safe
16 and organized place for families to enjoy
17 recreational ATV riding without interference with
18 the rest of our community. And it is signed by
19 over 43 people.
20 Do I have that number correct?
21 MR. KERRICK: I think close to that.
22 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: Yes. We have
23 four pages with 43 signatures on it. Up and down
24 Sullivan Trail and in Blueberry Estates are all
25 these signatures. And I had them -- they signed
18
1 it, they read it, they agree with it, and they also
2 listed their street and where they live.
3 I also -- part of these names went
4 up on the other side of Route 380, part of Emerald
5 Lakes, or the main portion of Emerald Lakes, is up
6 there. And I went into the closest houses, even
7 though we have a big buffer of Route 380 between
8 us, and their names are also on the back end of
9 this. Okay? I kind of felt like I was trick or
10 treating when I was doing this, but I personally
11 went, I met every one of them and I was overwhelmed
12 with the response that I did get.
13 They do have complaints and they did
14 acknowledge that their complaints are their own
15 neighbors who happen to run -- or have ATVs within
16 both communities and ride them back over here and
17 do not ride them as part of our club that exists
18 here. And they're hoping that we can get them over
19 and keep them off the roads.
20 Local business support. Located
21 within Tobyhanna Township and the Pocono Mountains
22 surrounding area are businesses which have received
23 a noticeable increase to their establishment as a
24 direct result from The Lost Trails ATV Adventure
25 Park. The types of businesses range from the small
19
1 mom and pop deli, such as Joe's Quick Mart, which
2 is right on the corner of Sullivan and 940, to the
3 large corporations of the Days Inn and Great Wolf
4 Lodge.
5 I also went around to these
6 businesses, met with them, and I'd like to just
7 read the statement -- and they also signed. And
8 the statement goes: As a business operating in the
9 Pocono Mountains Area, we have had a noticeable
10 increase in the patronage and/or in the referrals
11 for our activities attributable to The Lost Trails
12 ATV Adventure Park. We feel The Lost Trails is a
13 benefit to our area and provides a needed activity
14 for its residents, vacationers, and in the
15 promotion to the Pocono Mountains tourism business.
16 There are 27 signatures on here from
17 various different businesses. I did not stack the
18 deck, as you can notice, if you do read here. Not
19 one -- I did not go to one ATV dealership. If I go
20 there, they definitely will sign it. Okay? Their
21 sales have increased also. But, again, I was quite
22 surprised with how many other businesses have been
23 touched upon that said they are getting fed from
24 the business that we have here at The Lost Trails.
25 So overall it's a big benefit to
20
1 have this kind of activity. It's providing a need,
2 it's promoting tourism, it's enhancing other
3 businesses around us, and it fits right in with --
4 it sounds like some of the stuff I've heard at all
5 your meetings about your comprehensive plan.
6 I have an added item I wanted to
7 add. Kind of a reverse community. The Lost Trails
8 isn't about themselves; we do charity events and
9 benefits. Last year we held a benefit for a girl,
10 we called it Ride For Samantha, she had cancer.
11 And the ATV community came to my wife and myself
12 and wanted to know if they could run a charity
13 event where a portion of the proceeds that came
14 into the park would be given to her family. I'll
15 submit this.
16 And what we had done in one day of
17 riding, had raised over $3,000 for this family and
18 this young girl, and that was last year. There was
19 other activities going on, 50/50s and raffles, but
20 the total purse for her family and for the little
21 girl was over three grand.
22 This year we ran a benefit for
23 Officer Chris Jones, who was a police officer or
24 State Trooper, who died in the course of his job
25 down in Philadelphia. Again, the Philadelphia
21
1 police officers had called us, they ride -- they
2 have lots of police officers that ride here at the
3 park -- again, asking us to do the same thing. And
4 we did that this year and it would have been a
5 great time if there was illegal riders coming on,
6 on that day, 'cause we had tons of police officers
7 and State Troopers.
8 Likewise, we raised over $2,500 for
9 Christopher Jones' benefit, who left a wife and
10 some young children behind. Okay? None of this
11 ever made the papers. We did call Pocono Record to
12 come take a look at it and we received no response.
13 So I'm giving this or offering this as a reverse
14 community of what we also do for the community.
15 We plan on having other events
16 throughout the year for local, raising money for
17 the volunteer firemen and for the people who help
18 us quite a bit. I shouldn't say quite a bit, but
19 when we do need it, is the ambulance squad.
20 And we want to hold similar benefits
21 for them also. And now I guess I'm open for
22 questions.
23 MS. HAASE: Mr. Chairman, if I may,
24 the purpose of this is, as per ordinance, the
25 applicant needs to sit in front of the planning
22
1 commission and the board of supervisors to
2 determine the nature and extent of the information
3 which you folks would like to have him place on the
4 plan. And that is in our ordinance under
5 conditional use permits. In your packet --
6 MR. KERRICK: We're just getting
7 that from Pat at the present time, but thank you.
8 MR. RICE: I mean, you understand
9 that -- and he has been to the planning commission
10 or --
11 MS. HAASE: Planning commission
12 meeting was postponed for next week. He has not --
13 he does not know what to put on the formal plan
14 until the board of supervisors and the planning
15 commission tell him what to place on the plan per
16 ordinance.
17 MR. RICE: And there's a list of
18 information in here --
19 MS. HAASE: That's correct.
20 MR. RICE: -- so all that could go
21 on a plan.
22 And then you understand you have
23 to -- have you filed a conditional use application
24 itself? That's been filed?
25 MS. HAASE: No.
23
1 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: Isn't that what
2 I filled out?
3 MS. HAASE: No.
4 MR. RICE: There's a form in here
5 that's --
6 MS. HAASE: He filled out the form
7 for the presubmission meeting which is what he's
8 having now.
9 MR. RICE: So the application is
10 different than what's in here?
11 MS. HAASE: Yes, sir. So once he's
12 advised as to what to place in those plans, then he
13 can put the plan together and submit the packet to
14 the township.
15 MR. RICE: Under the township zoning
16 ordinance we have to advertise a hearing, a court
17 reporter will be here to take it down, and then you
18 pretty much need to do what you just did again
19 under oath this time. And there will be notice
20 given to -- it will be in the newspaper.
21 Do we give notice to adjacent
22 property owners for conditional use hearings?
23 MS. HAASE: Yes, we do.
24 MR. RICE: So there will be notice
25 given to adjacent property owners, and then you
24
1 come in and do the same thing again. I guess the
2 question -- this is sort of a preliminary weather
3 forecast for you, and then you need to do the same
4 thing by going to the planning commission. But
5 this ordinance -- I guess the level of detail --
6 because this will be the hearing board.
7 When you come back, it will be this
8 board -- it will be like a zoning hearing board for
9 the conditional use hearing. But what information,
10 I guess he should have some direction from the
11 board.
12 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: Or is there --
13 is this the point where I would ask for -- or
14 request of the board to accept the maps that I've
15 presented as-is as a fulfillment of some of the
16 obligations under the zoning ordinance or no?
17 MR. RICE: No. Wait for the
18 hearing, wait for the advertised hearing to put all
19 these exhibits in.
20 I guess, Phyllis, the way I read
21 this is, it's the information, what information --
22 MS. HAASE: Yes, sir.
23 MR. RICE: -- does he need to file.
24 And he should probably take it to the planning
25 commission also.
25
1 MS. HAASE: Yes.
2 MR. RICE: And then once the
3 planning commission makes a recommendation, we have
4 60 days to hold a hearing. So once they make a
5 recommendation, then it will be advertised. I just
6 had -- just listening to your presentation, I had a
7 couple of questions. You said that this is on a
8 hundred ninety-two acre piece of ground?
9 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: Yes. The
10 proposal is, yes.
11 MR. RICE: And the 192 acres, is
12 that all in Tobyhanna?
13 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: Correct.
14 MR. RICE: But you're only using 35
15 of the 192?
16 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: That is also
17 correct.
18 MR. RICE: And then there's another
19 1200, which I assume is not in Tobyhanna --
20 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: Right.
21 MR. RICE: -- which the riders have
22 access to.
23 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: Correct.
24 MR. RICE: Okay. So I would think
25 at the very least the information -- there ought to
26
1 be information showing the 192, what's in
2 Tobyhanna, and then the 35 outlined --
3 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: Outlined, yeah.
4 MR. RICE: -- in some fashion that
5 you're going to use for this use. And then if the
6 trails could be put on the 35, that would be good
7 too so we all know, when you come back for the
8 hearing, what you're actually asking for. And
9 what -- and all those trails are existing, correct?
10 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: Well, yes. It's
11 a quarry and there're dirt roads, and that's what
12 this represents, the orange. The only thing
13 missing from this, what you're suggesting is for me
14 to draw another line just shrinking this down to
15 where we actually -- the portion of the 192 that's
16 being used by us.
17 MR. RICE: Yes. And I just think
18 that would be --
19 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: It's an outline
20 I'm trying to -- what I'm hoping to do is, not have
21 you require me to hire a surveyor, he's gotta go
22 out there and give you -- pinpoint the exact
23 35 acres. Or would this board be opposed to just
24 having what you said, giving a decent outline of
25 the overall site of what we're utilizing?
27
1 MR. RICE: How about an aerial photo
2 that shows it too? Is there a way to pinpoint
3 that?
4 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: An aerial photo
5 which might be available might be a bigger snapshot
6 of the whole property.
7 MR. RICE: I think the more
8 information, since you're asking for -- your
9 application, you're saying I'm only using 35 acres,
10 I think -- and, you know, it's up to the board what
11 you want him to put. He may need to get a
12 surveyor.
13 But they're going to -- assuming
14 they approve this -- I mean, we need a record of
15 where the 35 acres is that you're saying you're
16 using so it doesn't become, you know, 45 acres or
17 65 acres or 95 acres. Because if you expand it,
18 then you've got to come back for that, you've got
19 to do this all over again.
20 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: Should I leave
21 it alone at 192, even though we're not using it,
22 and just say it's available to us but we don't use
23 it?
24 MR. RICE: That's up to you. I'm
25 just saying you're --
28
1 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: You know what
2 I'm saying, I'll say, we have it available to us,
3 but, you know, just so you know we're not using it
4 at all.
5 MR. MOYER: Yeah. None of us would
6 have known if you didn't say the 35.
7 MR. RICE: Yeah, what's the board's
8 pleasure? I mean, it's up to you what you want to
9 see. I just think --
10 MR. KEENER: It depends on what he
11 wants approval of. I mean, do you want approval of
12 35 acres or do you want approval of 192? That's
13 what we would be considering, whatever you're
14 requesting. I guess that would serve some of the
15 specific questions. Is it on this 192 acres that
16 the moth restriction is located?
17 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: Yes. And that's
18 part --
19 MR. KEENER: That's something --
20 there's a moth that is protected and there's an
21 area delineated 192 acres on some mapping that
22 probably should be shown --
23 MR. RICE: Probably ought to be on
24 there too.
25 MS. PICKARD: I might have something
29
1 from Pocono Manor.
2 MR. KEENER: I guess to me more
3 specifically than anything that would go on the
4 plan is, what's the status of the mining permit?
5 What's -- yeah, there's the moth.
6 MS. PICKARD: That's the blue area
7 and the green.
8 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: That's over
9 here.
10 MR. RICE: Is there a restriction on
11 that?
12 MS. PICKARD: I don't think you can
13 do anything --
14 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: We -- you can't
15 do anything in there except shoot, I think, 'cause
16 I think they shoot.
17 MS. PICKARD: But not the moths.
18 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: Not the moths.
19 You can't shoot the moths, no.
20 MS. PICKARD: The moths only come
21 out a couple of weeks a year.
22 MR. KERRICK: Really?
23 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: Yes. It's like
24 an endangered species of moths.
25 MR. RICE: So this is the habitat
30
1 identified on the map.
2 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: It happens -- it
3 coincides, I believe, it's wetlands anyway, so we
4 can't go on it.
5 MR. RICE: And it's that green area?
6 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: It's the blue.
7 Yeah, the blue is the moth.
8 MR. RICE: So where's the 35 acres?
9 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: This side here,
10 the left side, closest to Route 380.
11 MS. PICKARD: That should probably
12 be designated.
13 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: Okay.
14 MR. KEENER: Yeah, if you can
15 delineate that area, the wetland areas, and there's
16 publications that you can get that information,
17 from NWI maps, national wetland inventories, you
18 can get that information. I don't know if we have
19 them here.
20 Phyllis --
21 MR. KERRICK: Yes.
22 MR. KEENER: You do? Okay. And
23 they're general wetland boundaries. I would think
24 that when the Manor did their work, that they had
25 wetland delineations. You might be able to get a
31
1 map of it as well.
2 MS. PICKARD: With the conservation
3 district you have restrictions now with --
4 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: We have a
5 wetlands crossing right here that -- we have put in
6 place a -- we already built a crossing bridge type
7 that -- we were directed by Soil Conservation to do
8 that as a temporary measure. It sits about two
9 feet of stone high and it has 12 ten-inch pipes so
10 the water could continually flow from one side to
11 the other. And none of the ATV activity goes
12 through any mud or anything unless it goes
13 downstream into the Swiftwater Creek. That's
14 already in place.
15 We don't have a permit for that. We
16 were meeting with DEP; however, the design's
17 already submitted, that also will be part of my
18 packet because you're gonna want that.
19 MS. PICKARD: Because they're gonna
20 have maps --
21 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: Yeah, we're
22 gonna have all that. But there's been a delay
23 because Soil Conservation wants an E&S plan, so
24 does DEP, but we haven't met with Soil
25 Conservation, that's coming on the 9th. And that's
32
1 where they're gonna give us some fine tuning. And
2 then once we get the permit, we can put that all
3 in. That I figured was a given, that I'd have to
4 submit that.
5 MR. KEENER: Yeah. I mean, the
6 status of the mining permit and any closure
7 requirements that were stipulated in that, the
8 erosion control approval from the conservation
9 district, any permit for crossing, stream crossing,
10 wetland crossing, any of that information to me
11 would be necessary before we could make a decision
12 on it.
13 There's still an issue, in my mind,
14 relative to the 319, the Clean and Green, relative
15 to the architect status.
16 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: I have something
17 on that.
18 MR. KEENER: This property is
19 currently in Clean and Green?
20 MR. RICE: 319. So there's a county
21 covenant recorded against the property.
22 MR. KEENER: Yes. And what
23 activities are permitted within that area and
24 whether these uses -- this use and a mining use are
25 permitted, we're still meeting the 319
33
1 qualifications.
2 MR. RICE: Do they still mine the
3 property?
4 MR. MOYER: Not actively, I don't
5 think.
6 MR. KEENER: Well, but I think
7 there's still an open permit.
8 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: They reduced to
9 five acres. I don't know if that's statewide or
10 something that happened. All the minor mining
11 permits were reduced to whatever number they were,
12 to five acres.
13 MR. KEENER: That's what I'd like to
14 know. What is the status? Is there still a mining
15 permit for that site?
16 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: Yes, there is.
17 MR. RICE: So we should -- I mean,
18 that's something that, the township should have a
19 copy of that for the hearing that you're going to
20 have.
21 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: Okay.
22 MR. RICE: I mean, all that stuff
23 you would bring to the hearing, the advertised
24 hearing, and present that. Put it all together in
25 a book, like you did Exhibit A, B, you know, and
34
1 then the board's going to need to look at all that.
2 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: I don't know
3 where to get the answer for that Clean and Green.
4 The only thing I have, if I may, is, this is an
5 assessment of the 2004 amendment to -- preferential
6 assessment of the farm and forest, Clean and Green.
7 It says, on December 8, 2004, Governor Rendell
8 signed House Bill 657. It became Act 235 in 2004.
9 When it is in effect, it will make important
10 changes to the Clean and Green program.
11 Now, specifically it says, Act 235
12 amended the existing law by addressing two
13 important questions that landowners ask: What kind
14 of use can I make of my land and still qualify and
15 what type of activities may be performed? And
16 basically the Act 235 provides that an owner of
17 agricultural or forest reserve land who permits or
18 authorizes a recreational activity on the tract,
19 will not lose eligibility for the program because
20 of this recreational use.
21 Act 235 addresses this concern by
22 providing that no rollover taxes will be due and no
23 breach of the preferential assessment will be
24 deemed to have occurred if the owner of the land
25 has permitted or authorized the recreational
35
1 activity to be conducted on any portion of the
2 land, whether or not a fee is imposed to perform
3 the activity.
4 The objective seems to be to allow
5 recreational activities that can be carried out
6 without making permanent changes to the land or
7 building facilities that would hamper conversion of
8 the land to the qualifying use.
9 MR. KEENER: Bring that to the
10 hearing.
11 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: I'll bring it to
12 the hearing and I'll still have you have that.
13 MR. RICE: Act 235 of what year?
14 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: 2004, it's
15 already been --
16 MR. RICE: Yeah, I know they
17 mentioned it --
18 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: It seems to --
19 it also goes in there to say, I guess it affected a
20 lot of farmers about that corn maze. They charge
21 money, they had land in the Clean and Green, and
22 they were getting rollback taxes. And they felt --
23 I guess the state felt it was not fair. So -- and
24 they don't just limit it to just corn mazes.
25 They are gonna be vague in their
36
1 recreational activity, and they're saying they're
2 leaving it up pretty much to the local enforcements
3 as far as what is considered recreational and what
4 is not. But the broad spectrum was to allow
5 recreational activities on it and still keep it
6 open for enjoyment.
7 MR. KEENER: Have we -- I think you
8 gotta pursue a determination from the assessor's
9 office, which we've been trying to get, and we
10 haven't gotten specific --
11 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: They came out.
12 I took them around and I know they came out about a
13 month ago, but I have not heard anything as far
14 as -- or maybe I wouldn't. It would be the
15 landowner, I guess, who would hear from them.
16 MS. PICKARD: The concern was that
17 if there was permanent damage done or if there was
18 any violation. So I think that's still a process
19 of --
20 MR. KEENER: I think you might want
21 to follow up with the assessment office and find
22 out what they have found and what their
23 determination is going to be.
24 MS. PICKARD: I think the
25 conservation district is part of that. And I don't
37
1 know whether that's still enforced because you're
2 meeting with them and --
3 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: Well, I'll ask
4 at that meeting.
5 MS. PICKARD: Mr. Novak is leasing
6 the property from Pocono Manor so will we want a
7 copy of that lease? In here it says legal data --
8 MR. RICE: Yeah, whatever written
9 permission you have from them.
10 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: Is it okay to
11 give you an excerpt of -- give you pertinent copies
12 to satisfy that? There's no need for anybody else
13 to know the complete details of the lease; is that
14 correct?
15 MR. RICE: As long as we know that
16 you have permission, standing, to file for the
17 conditional use hearing, we don't care what you're
18 paying them or whatever. At least -- does that
19 matter to the --
20 MR. KERRICK: Doesn't matter to me.
21 MS. PICKARD: No.
22 MR. RICE: The business terms
23 doesn't matter, but as long as we know that, you
24 know, you've got permission to do that. You need
25 that in order to file a conditional use
38
1 application.
2 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: Right. I have
3 all that. You want me just to wait?
4 MR. RICE: Yeah, just put it all
5 together for when it gets advertised and we have
6 the advertised hearing. And then work with Phyllis
7 on -- you know, when you're ready to do that.
8 Right, that would be a separate
9 application?
10 MS. HAASE: Yes, sir.
11 MR. RICE: And then all that
12 information -- at least the plan ought to be filed
13 with the application, and then all the other
14 permits you can bring to the hearing and put into
15 the record.
16 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: I think what we
17 need is a vote to pass me to the planning
18 commission.
19 MS. HAASE: No.
20 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: You don't need a
21 vote on that?
22 MS. HAASE: No. What we need to do
23 is in Section 155-79, is all the information that
24 may or may not be required to be placed on a plan.
25 And I think that's the direction
39
1 that the Novaks need to know is, what you folks
2 would like to have on the plan. Is it just what
3 Mr. Keener had mentioned or do you want -- what
4 should he put on the plan?
5 MR. KEENER: Everything pertinent,
6 which he's shown quite a bit of it. The size of
7 the building. I would like to see it in a little
8 more detail than this drawing that's shown here.
9 Where the mud holes are. And, you know, looking at
10 the aerial photography, if you go onto MSN under
11 the bird's-eye view, you could pull up a pretty
12 good example of a pretty good aerial as to see what
13 activity is there, some of that details -- to see
14 what the activities are. I mean, you show the
15 trails on there, but I understand there's --
16 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: Catch basins
17 that were there.
18 MR. KEENER: Right. Are they used
19 to -- is there bog holes that are used?
20 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: The ATVers use
21 them. They're not wetlands or anything like that,
22 they're just catch basins, holes with water in it;
23 but we can certainly get pictures or what you
24 suggested. What was that called?
25 MRS. LESLIE NOVAK: MSN bird's-eye
40
1 view.
2 MR. KEENER: MSN.com. You can go on
3 maps and actually have an aerial photograph. I
4 don't know if you could print it or not, but at
5 least you can actually see the ATVs and the
6 vehicles and stuff parked there.
7 MS. PICKARD: So on I, a complete
8 outline of existing deed restriction or covenants,
9 would that be something that should be put on the
10 plan or is that just an outline?
11 MR. RICE: That's just a separate if
12 there's any -- well, one of the covenants would be
13 the 319 covenant so if there's any other --
14 MS. PICKARD: And any other
15 conservation.
16 MR. RICE: Right. Any other deed
17 restrictions, covenants that apply to the property.
18 I mean, I'm just looking at this list of
19 information. This is my opinion what ought to go
20 on there.
21 If you start with Paragraph 1, legal
22 data, tax number, name and address of the owner,
23 that needs to be provided in writing somehow. Name
24 and address of the person preparing the map. Now,
25 the map you want to do is not going to be an
41
1 engineer's map or a survey map, but you might want
2 to get some professional to put -- somehow scale
3 this and put it onto a plan so it's clear.
4 I mean, I don't know whether it's
5 appropriate to have him survey the property to show
6 all the acreage and put some of the physical
7 features.
8 So there needs to be some kind of a
9 map and then, you know, the date, North point and
10 written and graphic scale, define the boundaries,
11 names and locations of streets, curb lines. All of
12 that, it seems to me, is probably unnecessary.
13 Deed restrictions, obviously, and covenants, as
14 Heidi said.
15 Zoning district in which the
16 property is located ought to be on there. Natural
17 features. There's a whole series of information
18 that's listed here that unless he hires an
19 engineer, he's not going to be able to put most of
20 this on a plan of 192 acres.
21 Utilities. There's a whole
22 requirement here of utilities. Telephone lines,
23 storm sewers. And these are engineer -- these are
24 usually what you get on engineer plans. I'm not
25 sure any of that is necessary for his purposes.
42
1 But then all the proposed improvements, that ought
2 to be shown: The size of the building, any signs,
3 signs that ought to be shown, location of signs,
4 you know, existing parking areas, driveways, that
5 should be shown.
6 There's no -- is there any well or
7 sewage systems on the site?
8 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: No. We're
9 utilizing Porta-Johns.
10 MR. RICE: Porta-Johns, okay. Plan
11 and location of any proposed grading, landscaping,
12 or screening.
13 MRS. LESLIE NOVAK: No.
14 MR. RICE: Are you proposing any of
15 that?
16 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: No. We're using
17 the property as-is.
18 MR. RICE: You're not going to grade
19 any new trails in anywhere?
20 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: No.
21 MR. KEENER: Well, one of the
22 things, you might want to follow up with Mr.
23 Cahill. It was said in his meeting with some of
24 the property owners, adjacent property owners, that
25 said that they were gonna provide screening so --
43
1 or buffers. That was discussed at the public
2 hearing for the rezoning, so you might want to
3 follow up with Mr. Cahill on that.
4 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: Well, at what
5 point would that be required? There's 520 feet of
6 solid woods and -- you know what I'm saying?
7 MR. KEENER: I wasn't party to that
8 discussion. If you agree to that with the property
9 owners, you know --
10 MR. RICE: You might want to just
11 ask him which property owners he spoke to and what
12 were they looking for.
13 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: All right. Make
14 a note of that.
15 MR. RICE: But if you take this
16 list -- I mean, there's a lot of engineering
17 information that would normally go on a plan that
18 probably isn't necessary, but the other things that
19 the board discussed, proposed improvements, the
20 driveways, parking areas, they ought to be shown
21 and designated somehow on a plan.
22 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: Okay.
23 MR. RICE: I mean, I think you can
24 do that without surveying the whole property.
25 Somebody ought to be able to do that for you.
44
1 MR. KEENER: You can get the NWI
2 maps and you can get the USGS flood maps that are
3 there online. Try searching Pennsylvania data
4 center. I think there's -- it has the PASDA and
5 find the USGS flood maps. I'm sure we have them in
6 hard copy too in the office. They show the
7 streams, wooded areas --
8 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: Okay.
9 MR. KEENER: -- roads.
10 MR. RICE: Then the other things
11 documented that we talked about earlier, DEP --
12 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: That I figured.
13 MR. RICE: DEP, E&S, Soil
14 Conservation District, any of those permits or
15 approvals that you've gotten from them and what
16 they're asking you to do. So all of that ought to
17 come in for the hearing, be presented at the
18 hearing.
19 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: And that
20 wouldn't take place until next month?
21 MR. RICE: At least.
22 MS. PICKARD: The HOP, would that be
23 a condition if there was --
24 MR. RICE: If there's a change. I
25 don't -- where do you --
45
1 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: I dropped that
2 off today. Yeah, they thought that what -- PennDOT
3 used -- made this years ago when they built 380, is
4 what I was told, but that doesn't mean there was
5 one. And I did a little research and there wasn't,
6 so I just dropped it off to someone down there and
7 I should probably have that by the meeting. So
8 we're in --
9 MR. RICE: So as much of that
10 information as you can get on a plan, and then
11 there's all the supporting documentation. But
12 you've got to file the formal conditional use
13 application and once that gets filed, we'll
14 schedule -- the board will have to pick a date. I
15 don't know when the board wants to do that. You're
16 looking at August at least.
17 MS. PICKARD: You said 60 days from
18 after the PC has looked at it?
19 MR. RICE: Sixty days from the date
20 that he files an application you have to hold a
21 hearing. It's going to be advertised twice so we
22 need time to put an ad in the paper. I don't know,
23 off the top of my head, what are the notice
24 requirements. Is it adjacent property owners
25 within 500 feet?
46
1 MS. HAASE: A hundred feet -- I'm
2 sorry, a thousand feet.
3 MR. RICE: So that takes a little
4 bit of time.
5 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: Okay. Thank you
6 for your time.
7 MR. KERRICK: Do you have any other
8 questions of us before you leave?
9 MR. ANTHONY NOVAK: I think I'm
10 okay.
11 MR. KERRICK: Okay.
12 Next item on our agenda, Trevdan
13 Building Supply, pre-final land development plan.
14 MR. RUDY WOLF: Good afternoon. I'm
15 Rudy Wolf from Keystone Consulting Engineers.
16 We've prepared the plans that you reviewed, the
17 planning commission has reviewed. I'm filling in
18 for Jim Christman, engineer, who is no longer with
19 our firm. He had represented Trevdan and we were
20 also dealing with Larry Kanavy in this project
21 throughout, so I'm gonna stand in, so I guess
22 you're gonna have to put up with me.
23 He tried to get me up to speed and I
24 have some basic understanding about what the plan
25 is. And my understanding is that the plan has been
47
1 fully reviewed by the planning commission, it's
2 gone through a number of meetings.
3 There was one or two outstanding
4 items. And I believe the last is the issue of the
5 water authority for the project, for emergency
6 purposes, and that had to be ironed out. There
7 were several scenarios suggested. We finally have
8 received the letter that the township is in receipt
9 of and copied me with Bureau Veritas regarding the
10 proposed Option No. 3, which I think everyone here
11 should have copies of the plan. I know multiple
12 sets were submitted to the township so you have
13 copies of the plan. I have one with me, but I
14 believe there were 11 by 17 and full sized as well.
15 So, I mean, I'm sort of just here to
16 represent Keystone on the plan and any questions
17 that remain with the help of Walter Dill, a
18 representative from Trevdan, can more explain the
19 project tonight firsthand.
20 I felt that the letter from Bureau
21 Veritas satisfied the water supply issue, and I
22 don't know that there were any other outstanding
23 issues at this point for approval. And the last
24 set, multiple sets, and the CD were submitted at
25 the end of June.
48
1 MS. HAASE: Mm-hmm.
2 MR. KERRICK: Jamie, do you have any
3 questions? Anne? Donny?
4 MR. KEENER: I had just raised the
5 one question earlier about the location of the
6 handicapped parking.
7 MR. WALTER DILL: Okay, let me
8 answer that. Our handicapped -- our building is
9 actually reversed. When you look at Hudock Road,
10 you're looking at the back of that building. The
11 other building, the one we proposed to put the
12 addition on, faces Hudock Road. Okay? So those
13 handicapped parking spaces are actually right next
14 to the office door.
15 MR. KEENER: Gotcha. Okay, thank
16 you.
17 MR. KERRICK: Any other questions?
18 MR. KEENER: I'll make a motion we
19 approve Project 2009-001 Trevdan Building Supply
20 with the conditions that they comply with township
21 engineer's review letter dated 6/2/09; and that we
22 also approve waivers SALDO Sections 135-12.D(2);
23 135-15.A(15); 135-17.L&M; and Chapter 124[Act 167
24 Volume 1, Section II.B.3 and Table 5]; and that a
25 development agreement be reviewed and approved by
49
1 the township solicitor.
2 MS. PICKARD: Second the motion.
3 MR. KERRICK: Motion and second on
4 the floor.
5 Any questions or comments from the
6 board?
7 Questions or comments from the
8 public on the motion?
9 Call the vote.
10 Jaime?
11 MR. KEENER: I vote in favor.
12 MR. KERRICK: Anne?
13 MS. LAMBERTON: I vote in favor.
14 MR. KERRICK: Donny?
15 MR. MOYER: I vote in favor.
16 MR. KERRICK: Heidi?
17 MS. PICKARD: I vote in favor.
18 MR. KERRICK: I'll vote in favor.
19 Motion carried.
20 Thank you for your time.
21 MR. RUDY WOLF: Thank you very much.
22 MR. WALTER DILL: Thank you very
23 much.
24 MR. KERRICK: Next item, appoint
25 representatives -- excuse me, appoint
50
1 representative and an alternate to Act 32 EIT
2 Committee.
3 MS. PICKARD: Okay. Act 32 is the
4 new legislation, that they're trying to slim down
5 the number of earned income tax collectors in the
6 state down to one per county, so they're going
7 countywide. Each municipality needs to appoint a
8 representative and an alternate. I did speak with
9 Anne Lamberton and she agreed to be the alternate;
10 I would be willing to be the representative.
11 I've been attending meetings at
12 PSATS and our COG is going to have a meeting in
13 Ross Township at the end of August to try and
14 organize and see if we can get all the
15 municipalities to work together. We're going to
16 have a weighted average and that would be by the
17 number of residents and the amount of revenue
18 collected. So really the school districts will be
19 making the decisions pretty much as to who our
20 earned income tax provider will be.
21 So COG is trying to get everybody up
22 to speed, but we do need to follow the legislation
23 as far as we do have a representative and an
24 alternate appointed before September, but we wanted
25 that to attend the COG meeting in August.
51
1 MR. KERRICK: Question. We have no
2 choice in this matter?
3 MS. PICKARD: Very little. COG's
4 feeling would be that -- there's an article in the
5 township meeting this month that's attached to the
6 agenda. We can appoint anybody we want; it doesn't
7 even have to be a township resident. At this point
8 in time, they want to get everybody together at
9 COG. What we could do is pool together --
10 MR. KERRICK: That's not my
11 question. My question is, the countywide
12 collection.
13 MS. PICKARD: The county has nothing
14 to do with it. They just have to set up the first
15 meeting, which they have set up at the end of
16 October and then we're out of it because they don't
17 collect taxes, that's the school district and
18 municipality. So they could form a committee and
19 they could decide to make an authority and charge
20 all sorts of money to run an office. That's up to
21 the board to decide. One of those --
22 MR. RICE: Mandatory consolidation.
23 MR. KERRICK: If it's not broken,
24 why fix it?
25 MS. PICKARD: Well --
52
1 MR. KEENER: They think it's gonna
2 save money.
3 MS. PICKARD: Well, there were a
4 couple of problems in Allegheny County, I think out
5 west, where there was some --
6 MR. KERRICK: Again, why because of
7 a few does everybody have to change?
8 MS. PICKARD: Ask your legislators.
9 MR. KERRICK: I'd like to.
10 So you'll do that in a motion?
11 MR. KEENER: I'll make a motion we
12 appoint Heidi Pickard as our representative
13 regarding Act 32 and Annie Lamberton as our
14 alternate.
15 MR. KERRICK: Motion and second.
16 Questions or comments?
17 Questions or comments from the
18 public?
19 Call the vote.
20 Jamie?
21 MR. KEENER: I vote in favor.
22 MR. KERRICK: Anne?
23 MS. LAMBERTON: I vote in favor.
24 MR. KERRICK: Donny?
25 MR. MOYER: I vote in favor.
53
1 MR. KERRICK: Heidi?
2 MS. PICKARD: I vote in favor.
3 MR. KERRICK: I'll vote in favor.
4 Motion carried.
5 Resolution 2009-017, appoint
6 building code official.
7 MS. PICKARD: Back to our work
8 session conversation, we do have the names of the
9 two licensed individuals, but I think we had felt
10 that we could appoint Bureau Veritas as our
11 building code official.
12 MR. KERRICK: That's your motion?
13 MS. PICKARD: That would be my
14 motion.
15 MR. KEENER: Second.
16 MR. KERRICK: Motion and second.
17 Questions or comments from the
18 board?
19 Questions or comments from the
20 public on the motion?
21 Call the vote.
22 Jamie?
23 MR. KEENER: I vote in favor.
24 MR. KERRICK: Anne?
25 MS. LAMBERTON: I vote in favor.
54
1 MR. KERRICK: Donny?
2 MR. MOYER: I vote in favor.
3 MR. KERRICK: Heidi?
4 MS. PICKARD: I vote in favor.
5 MR. KERRICK: I vote in favor.
6 Motion carried.
7 Next item, traffic signal project.
8 Oh, I'm sorry, I skipped open space, I apologize.
9 Next item on our agenda, appoint open space --
10 MR. KEENER: Was that on purpose?
11 MR. KERRICK: Pardon?
12 MR. KEENER: Was that on purpose?
13 MR. KERRICK: No, it really wasn't.
14 It really wasn't.
15 MS. PICKARD: I'm going to make a
16 motion that we appoint Greg Hamill, Greg A. Hamill
17 and Thomas R. Eisler, E-i-s-l-e-r, to the open
18 space advisory committee. They were recommended to
19 us by the committee.
20 MR. KERRICK: What was that name?
21 MS. PICKARD: Thomas Eisler. He's
22 in Arrowhead. He's been attending the meetings.
23 MR. KERRICK: Motion on the floor.
24 Do we have a second?
25 MR. MOYER: Second.
55
1 MR. KERRICK: Questions or comments
2 from the board?
3 Questions or comments from the
4 public on the motion?
5 Call the vote.
6 Jaime?
7 MR. KEENER: I vote in favor.
8 MR. KERRICK: Anne?
9 MS. LAMBERTON: I vote in favor.
10 MR. KERRICK: Donny?
11 MR. MOYER: I vote in favor.
12 MR. KERRICK: Heidi?
13 MS. PICKARD: I vote in favor.
14 MR. KERRICK: And I'll vote in
15 favor. Motion carried.
16 Next item, traffic signal project,
17 Kuharchick Construction Payment Request No. 1.
18 Do we have a motion to approve?
19 MR. KEENER: So moved.
20 MR. KERRICK: Motion. Do we have --
21 MR. MOYER: Second.
22 MR. KERRICK: Motion and second.
23 Questions or comments?
24 Questions or comments from the
25 public?
56
1 Call the vote.
2 Jamie?
3 MR. KEENER: I vote in favor.
4 MR. KERRICK: Anne?
5 MS. LAMBERTON: I vote in favor.
6 MR. KERRICK: Donny?
7 MR. MOYER: I vote in favor.
8 MR. KERRICK: Heidi?
9 MS. PICKARD: I vote in favor.
10 MR. KERRICK: And I'll vote in
11 favor.
12 Next item on our agenda, Classic
13 Quality Homes, land development plan waiver
14 request.
15 MS. HAASE: That would be me.
16 MR. KERRICK: Side job?
17 MS. HAASE: Yes. I multitask.
18 I'm sure the board members are aware
19 that this particular business recently had a fire.
20 They wish to rebuild on the same footprint. They
21 have been through a review foundation. It's
22 acceptable to rebuild on. What they would like to
23 do is, add a second floor. The way -- the
24 ordinance currently states that I may issue a
25 permit up to 200 square feet. So if they rebuild
57
1 on the same footprint, that's fine. Anything over
2 the additional 200 square feet, they'd be required
3 to land development since it's a commercial
4 district.
5 So the owner of the property is
6 requesting to have the land development waived due
7 to the fact that it's still staying in the
8 footprint, just putting it on the second floor. I
9 did speak to him regarding the fact that he would
10 have to meet the requirements of the ordinance with
11 regards to parking, lighting, anything else that
12 would need to be reviewed.
13 So that is the request of the
14 applicant, that the land development be waived. I
15 was out there today. I know Bob McHale was out
16 there today as well.
17 MR. KEENER: What's the height?
18 MR. KERRICK: Didn't it have a
19 second floor, the original building, or was that a
20 story and a half?
21 MR. TUTRONE: It's was a story and a
22 half in one section.
23 MR. KERRICK: Okay.
24 MR. KEENER: What's the proposed
25 height? Does it meet our height requirements?
58
1 MS. HAASE: Yes. It actually would
2 meet the height requirement.
3 MR. KEENER: Okay. And the second
4 floor, I think I saw one in there, it's mostly
5 storage display so you're really not gonna be --
6 MS. HAASE: The second floor is
7 going to be used for storage, as well as offices.
8 MR. KEENER: And you're going to
9 verify that the parking requirements are --
10 MS. HAASE: Yes, sir.
11 MR. KEENER: I'll make a motion that
12 we waive land development with the stipulation that
13 the building be no larger than the current outline
14 foundation, and that's, again, as a result of the
15 fire that they experienced.
16 MR. KERRICK: Motion on the floor.
17 Do we have a second?
18 MR. MOYER: Second.
19 MR. KERRICK: Motion and second.
20 Questions or comments?
21 MS. PICKARD: I'll make a comment
22 that there would only be that specific use as
23 verified by our zoning officer, that they would be
24 leasing out additional offices, you know, so it
25 changes the requirement. If they change owners,
59
1 then there's going to be a parking issue.
2 MS. HAASE: They may change owners,
3 they may change use. They'd have to still conform
4 with the parking.
5 MS. PICKARD: They had come forward
6 initially to talk about leasing out spaces and
7 Phyllis said that there may be a parking issue, so
8 they came back and made that store.
9 MR. RICE: Well, why don't you just
10 make the motion approving it with the condition
11 that if more than one use shows up, whether it's
12 this owner or the next owner, they've got to come
13 back in, they've got to show some kind of a site
14 plan that shows that they meet whatever the
15 requirements are. Not a land development plan but
16 a site plan that shows the parking, you know, if
17 they're going to have multiple uses in that
18 building. It sounds like you're putting the second
19 floor on which could be leased out.
20 MR. KERRICK: Currently we have a
21 motion and second on the floor. We would have to
22 vote on that or we'd have to amend the motion and
23 amend the second.
24 MR. KEENER: I'll make it acceptable
25 to the --
60
1 MR. KERRICK: To the correction or
2 amendment?
3 MR. KEENER: Yes.
4 MR. KERRICK: Do you amend your
5 second?
6 MR. MOYER: Yes, second.
7 MR. KEENER: And that would be to
8 provide a condition that if they change the use,
9 that they would have to come in with the site plan
10 to verify that the parking and any other
11 restrictions or regulations are met.
12 MR. KERRICK: Any questions or
13 comments from the public?
14 MR. TROY COUNTERMAN: Troy
15 Counterman, fire chief. Because you're putting the
16 second floor in there, they would still have to
17 follow the safety code and the IFC, correct?
18 MR. KEENER: Yes. They would still
19 have to comply with the codes.
20 MR. TROY COUNTERMAN: Okay.
21 MR. KERRICK: Any other questions?
22 Call the vote.
23 Jamie?
24 MR. KEENER: I vote in favor.
25 MR. KERRICK: Anne?
61
1 MS. LAMBERTON: I vote in favor.
2 MR. KERRICK: Donny?
3 MR. MOYER: I vote in favor.
4 MR. KERRICK: Heidi?
5 MS. PICKARD: I vote in favor.
6 MR. KERRICK: I'll vote in favor.
7 Motion carried.
8 Next item, land development -- or
9 lot joinder.
10 Phyllis, do you have anything on
11 that one?
12 MS. HAASE: That was given to
13 Margie. I'm assuming that she had placed it in the
14 packet.
15 MR. KERRICK: I was just wondering
16 if you had any comment. I'm sorry, I didn't mean
17 to put you on the spot.
18 MS. HAASE: No, I'm sorry.
19 MS. PICKARD? They're adjoining that
20 lot behind.
21 MS. HAASE: Yes, ma'am.
22 MS. PICKARD: The two they already
23 have joined.
24 MS. HAASE: Correct.
25 MS. PICKARD: And we have all the
62
1 records and information.
2 MS. HAASE: Yes, we do.
3 MR. KERRICK: So do you have a
4 motion?
5 MS. PICKARD: I make a motion that
6 we approve the lot joinder for Ronald and Renata
7 Puntolillo of Arrowhead Lake.
8 MR. KERRICK: We have a motion.
9 Do we have a second?
10 MR. MOYER: Second.
11 MR. KERRICK: Motion and second.
12 Questions or comments from the
13 board?
14 MR. KEENER: Yes. Do we have the
15 definition of through lot in our ordinance, in our
16 zoning ordinance? Do we have any restrictions
17 regarding through lot? Since this is gonna have
18 double frontage, we would be creating double
19 frontage?
20 MS. HAASE: No, we do not.
21 MR. KEENER: And we allow access
22 from both frontages?
23 MS. HAASE: If the development
24 allowed it, there's nothing to prohibit it. I
25 don't believe that that's what they're proposing,
63
1 but that would be something to deal with the
2 development.
3 MR. KEENER: Okay. Keep in mind, as
4 we go forward with the revised zoning ordinance,
5 that we should put a regulation in there relative
6 to through lots, that if there are two different
7 classified lot frontages or roads that are fronting
8 on it, that access should be fronted to the lesser
9 classified road. Normally you see that in
10 ordinances.
11 MR. KERRICK: Any other questions?
12 Questions from the public?
13 Call the vote.
14 Jamie?
15 MR. KEENER: I vote in favor.
16 MR. KERRICK: Anne?
17 MS. LAMBERTON: I vote in favor.
18 MR. KERRICK: Donny?
19 MR. MOYER: I vote in favor.
20 MR. KERRICK: Heidi?
21 MS. PICKARD: I vote in favor.
22 MR. KERRICK: And I'll vote in
23 favor.
24 Next item on our agenda, Mark
25 Wangberg, Lot 45, Lake View Drive, Lake Naomi,
64
1 request for well isolation waiver.
2 MR. JIM GRAVATT: Jim Gravatt,
3 Better Homes and Garden, Wilkins & Associates,
4 Naomi Pines office. Okay?
5 Mine's really simple. Pardon me, I
6 just got knee surgery. Mark Wangberg, I sold him
7 that property and it's been probably in your hands
8 three times. It was originally built in 1968 so it
9 did not comply to the hundred-foot setback. It --
10 on the sale of the property, on the inspection, the
11 septic flunked.
12 The existing septic is about 70 feet
13 from the existing well. So we had Mark Robbins
14 come in. They surveyed the property and located
15 all the surrounding wells, as you can see on the
16 map, and the best they could do was to put the new
17 elevated sand mound all the way down near the road
18 and it leaves the well, the existing well, 44 feet
19 from the new elevated sand mound.
20 So we brought this -- we had John
21 Brogan over there and John requested that we get a
22 letter from -- we had Joe Valentine, soil
23 scientist, look at the property and make a
24 recommendation, and I guess you have the letter in
25 there.
65
1 In conclusion, the proposed elevated
2 sand mound will provide for better treatment of the
3 waste water being discharged to the soil than the
4 existing subsurface seepage bed. The proposed
5 elevated sand mound is down gradient of the
6 existing water supply. The proposed elevated sand
7 mound will not have any adverse effect on the water
8 quality from a properly constructed existing water
9 supply. Based upon our investigation, DelVal
10 requests an exception for the well isolated
11 distance be granted by the local agency.
12 So what we had basically was an
13 existing septic system that was 70 feet from the
14 well that was malfunctioning. It did not affect
15 the well; the well was tested and it was approved.
16 The new elevated sand mound, the best they could do
17 is, it will be 44 feet from the new elevated sand
18 mound.
19 Do you have a question?
20 MR. KEENER: Yeah. I see that they
21 left an out with the sentence, the proposed
22 elevated sand mound will not have an adverse effect
23 on the water quality from a properly constructed
24 existing water supply.
25 Have you verified that that well was
66
1 properly constructed? Is it encased correctly?
2 MR. JIM GRAVATT: I don't know.
3 It's the third property that -- the third person
4 that owned that property so the conditions of the
5 existing well and how it was drilled and the depth
6 and so forth are not known.
7 MR. KEENER: So you don't even know
8 the --
9 MR. JIM GRAVATT: The only thing we
10 know is, that the existing well did not repatch the
11 dirt even though the septic system that was 70 feet
12 from that well was malfunctioning.
13 MR. KEENER: Where is the existing
14 septic system? That's not shown on the drawing?
15 MR. JIM GRAVATT: Really?
16 MR. KEENER: The existing, the
17 failed system?
18 MS. PICKARD: On the back.
19 MR. KEENER: I don't see the
20 existing system. I think that should -- well, the
21 septic tank's there, but the failed system isn't
22 there.
23 MR. JIM GRAVATT: Well, blame Mark
24 Robbins for that. That's where it is.
25 MS. PICKARD: The question that I
67
1 had was, John Brogan had mentioned that there is a
2 spot that the well could be moved to make that a
3 hundred feet from --
4 MR. JIM GRAVATT: Well, what John
5 didn't realize was that the only location would be
6 there and there's two overhead wires coming in. So
7 you could not get a loader to bring anything in
8 there where the overhead wires are. Plus, the
9 person, the seller, has already spent about $19,000
10 on the new system, on the survey, on the perk,
11 design --
12 MS. PICKARD: It's proposed. The
13 sand mound's not put in yet?
14 MR. JIM GRAVATT: No.
15 MS. PICKARD: But it will lay out
16 the --
17 MR. JIM GRAVATT: Yeah, exactly. If
18 you give it approval, they'll go in tomorrow. But
19 he spent roughly $19,000, the seller has, so far.
20 And, of course, a new well would be -- I asked -- I
21 called the well drillers and between a well and the
22 piping, et cetera, you're looking at another five
23 grand. So 5,000 additional and you can't -- you
24 wouldn't be a hundred feet from the well. The best
25 you could probably be would be 80 feet.
68
1 Any questions, John?
2 MR. BROGAN: Yeah, I have no idea
3 about the well drilling process as far as just --
4 it's not the main line coming down the street, it's
5 the service lines coming up from the pole. If they
6 could be moved to do this thing, that's something
7 you should look at.
8 And originally I thought that you
9 could get a hundred feet pretty close to that, but
10 I guess it would be determined by the -- if you
11 could temporarily move those service lines coming
12 over from the pole to drill and rehook up to the
13 house. You know, that part I don't know. I can't
14 comment on that. I don't know if anyone on the
15 board has any experience with the drilling rig.
16 MR. KEENER: Well, they're drilling,
17 what, 32 wells in Stillwater Estates and there's
18 overhead lines all over the place. So I would
19 think that they could maneuver into this area to
20 get a well drilled. It might be said if it's just
21 the service, they could disconnect the service and
22 get the drilling rig in there.
23 MR. BROGAN: And also, we would want
24 our person to -- as it's called for in the regs,
25 to -- state regulations, to review the water study,
69
1 if it's adequate.
2 MR. JIM GRAVATT: What's that now?
3 I can't hear you.
4 MR. BROGAN: That we should have our
5 person review the -- DelVal's study before the
6 state regs call for the township to have that
7 reviewed, or we can have it reviewed by our person
8 to see if, in fact, the property studies was done,
9 if this is, in fact, enough to determine that the
10 ground water would not be affected by something in
11 this particular location, site specific, to satisfy
12 the board.
13 MR. KERRICK: John, if those lines
14 weren't there, they could get a hundred feet
15 from --
16 MR. BROGAN: Originally Mark Robbins
17 said he could give me a hundred feet. He would put
18 it up on the -- I guess if you're on Clear Pond
19 Court it would be the left corner there. Place it
20 near the other well so you're away from everyone
21 else.
22 But like I said, it's -- it depends
23 on if you get the rig in there. You do have more
24 than enough to get the hundred feet on that lot.
25 MR. JIM GRAVATT: It's been 70 feet
70
1 for 40 years and it hasn't affected the --
2 apparently hasn't affected the well. The well
3 passed inspection.
4 MR. KEENER: You have been a
5 full-time residence or part-time?
6 MR. JIM GRAVATT: Part-time.
7 MR. KEENER: What happens if it's a
8 full-time residence?
9 MR. JIM GRAVATT: Well, you have a
10 brand-new septic system with an elevated sand mound
11 with three tanks. It had one single tank before.
12 Now, the new system has a dual tank, as you can see
13 on the large plot thing. It has a dual tank and --
14 MR. KEENER: But it's the amount of
15 flow that I'm looking at. It's the amount of the
16 flow that's going to be coming out of there versus
17 the part-time residence.
18 MR. JIM GRAVATT: See, the new has
19 to be a double tank. The old one was a single
20 tank. To answer your question, Mark really isn't
21 sure. I mean, with the area, I brought Mark down
22 there as a guest on this. But as to where they
23 exist, I mean, he wouldn't know where it was unless
24 he dug it up. You know what I mean?
25 They put eight holes in there in the
71
1 ground to test it and they're guessing. You know,
2 you go in to an old house that was built 1968, it's
3 pretty hard to tell where the inground system is.
4 MR. KERRICK: If I understand this
5 correctly, John says that we have to have our soil
6 scientist review DelVal's --
7 MR. BROGAN: Well, you can if you
8 choose.
9 MR. KERRICK: If we choose. That's
10 going to be the board's choice which would cost
11 this gentleman money or the owner to settle it or
12 to put the well in. It's probably cheaper to put
13 the well in there.
14 MS. LAMBERTON: Yeah.
15 MR. KERRICK: And that could be done
16 and he could move forward. Otherwise, it's gonna
17 take forever to go through all the study. That's
18 only my thoughts.
19 MS. LAMBERTON: And it has the room.
20 MS. PICKARD: I think also we had an
21 instance where, you know, mortgage companies are
22 not approving mortgages now if it's less than a
23 hundred feet from the well. So whether it's this
24 one or the next one that comes in, I think it's
25 better that we have the opportunity now to do it.
72
1 MS. LAMBERTON: I agree.
2 MR. KERRICK: Unfortunately he has a
3 lot of large bills to be able to sell his home, but
4 I think it would be cheaper for him to do the well
5 and he can go ahead at his own pace than to do the
6 study and do the professional services agreement
7 with the township, et cetera, et cetera. I think
8 it would drag out and it would cost him more money.
9 That's only my thoughts.
10 MR. KEENER: Well, you know, what
11 happens, if that well wasn't constructed, not
12 properly constructed, we take on the liability if
13 something happens. You know, DelVal's absolving --
14 MR. JIM GRAVATT: Well, that's a
15 hundred feet away and it's not properly
16 constructed, that doesn't make any difference?
17 MS. PICKARD: We're not waiving --
18 MR. JIM GRAVATT: No, I mean,
19 they're done every day.
20 MR. KEENER: But it gives us a
21 hundred percent more leeway than 44 feet. If we go
22 to a hundred, you're twice as far. I mean, the
23 existing well is 70 plus feet away from the septic
24 system. You're going down almost 50 percent of
25 what the existing system was, the separation
73
1 distance.
2 I think it ought to be maximized --
3 the separation distance ought to be maximized. And
4 44 feet's too close, and I don't want to take the
5 liability on what DelVal's saying, you know, if
6 it's improperly constructed, there's gonna be a
7 problem. Well, we don't know. If it's 40 years
8 old, we don't know if it's properly constructed on
9 or not. I prefer not to take on that liability.
10 MR. KERRICK: Motion?
11 MR. KEENER: I make a motion we deny
12 the request for the reduced separation distance
13 between the well and the septic.
14 MR. KERRICK: Second?
15 MS. LAMBERTON: I'll second.
16 MR. KERRICK: Motion and second.
17 Questions or comments?
18 Questions or comments from the
19 public?
20 Do you want to add anything?
21 MR. JIM GRAVATT: That's in writing?
22 I mean, someone will do that letter in writing so I
23 can submit it to --
24 MR. KERRICK: I didn't call the vote
25 yet. I just asked if you had any questions.
74
1 Jamie?
2 Call the vote.
3 Jamie?
4 MR. KEENER: I vote in favor.
5 MR. KERRICK: Anne?
6 MS. LAMBERTON: I vote in favor.
7 MR. KERRICK: Donny?
8 MR. MOYER: I vote in favor.
9 MR. KERRICK: Heidi?
10 MS. PICKARD: I vote in favor.
11 MR. KERRICK: I vote in favor.
12 Motion carried.
13 MS. PICKARD: We'll put something in
14 writing.
15 MR. JIM GRAVATT: Excuse me?
16 MS. PICKARD: We will put something
17 in writing on that.
18 MR. JIM GRAVATT: You'll have
19 something in writing that I can submit to
20 Mr. Wangberg?
21 MS. PICKARD: Yes.
22 MR. JIM GRAVATT: 'Cause you know
23 he's looking at another 5,000, but --
24 MR. KERRICK: I personally -- off
25 the record.
75
1 (Discussion off the record.)
2 MR. KERRICK: Next item,
3 Dr. Giacalone, paving completed/request for escrow
4 release.
5 MS. HAASE: Mr. Chairman,
6 Dr. Giacalone wanted to thank the board for their
7 assistance in this process, and he appreciated the
8 assistance of the township. He had to go back, he
9 had patients to see, but he did want me to thank
10 the board.
11 MR. KERRICK: Thank you.
12 Do we have a motion to release his
13 escrow?
14 MS. PICKARD: I just wanted to make
15 a note that we had 12,350 for the paving and we had
16 an additional 700 on stormwater improvement that
17 was completed back in December and that was
18 verified by Mr. McHale. So the total amount to be
19 released is 13,050, which was the paving and the
20 stormwater.
21 MR. KERRICK: And that would be your
22 motion?
23 MS. PICKARD: That would be my
24 motion.
25 MR. KERRICK: Perfect.
76
1 Do we have a second?
2 MS. LAMBERTON: I'll second.
3 MR. KERRICK: Questions or comments
4 from the board?
5 Questions or comments from the
6 public?
7 Call the vote.
8 Jamie?
9 MR. KEENER: I abstain.
10 MR. KERRICK: Anne?
11 MS. LAMBERTON: I'll vote in favor.
12 MR. KERRICK: Donny?
13 MR. MOYER: I vote in favor.
14 MR. KERRICK: Heidi?
15 MS. PICKARD: I vote in favor.
16 MR. KERRICK: And I'll vote in
17 favor. Motion carried.
18 Next item on our agenda, Pinecrest
19 Lake Phase 2, Section 5, lot A7 time waiver.
20 John?
21 MR. RICE: I believe the waiver came
22 in.
23 MS. HAASE: I couldn't answer that.
24 MS. PICKARD: I think it's in the
25 packet.
77
1 MR. RICE: Yeah, I thought I saw an
2 e-mail from --
3 MS. PICKARD: Yeah, one was signed
4 July 1, '09 for -- until October 13, 2009. So we
5 don't really need to do it. I think that was on
6 there in case we didn't receive it.
7 MR. KERRICK: So should we disregard
8 that?
9 MS. PICKARD: We don't need a
10 motion.
11 MR. RICE: Well, otherwise you would
12 have to have done something, but since it came in
13 there's nothing else to do.
14 MS. PICKARD: Can we just tell them
15 what we want?
16 MR. RICE: That, yes. They wanted
17 that tabled.
18 MS. PICKARD: Okay. I just remember
19 Pat mentioning that.
20 MR. RICE: Well, that's --
21 MS. PICKARD: It wasn't on the
22 agenda, but Pat mentioned he was looking for a time
23 waiver on that.
24 MR. KERRICK: Let's finish this up.
25 We can disregard this item?
78
1 MR. RICE: Yes.
2 MR. KERRICK: Now, sorry, but if you
3 have something --
4 MS. PICKARD: Well, I just wanted to
5 check to see. Pat mentioned that we were waiting
6 for a time waiver on Wee-Wons and that it was
7 expiring and I don't recall.
8 MR. RICE: When you say Wee-Wons,
9 this is Kush --
10 MS. PICKARD: Kush and Sunny --
11 MR. KERRICK: Do you have any idea?
12 MS. HAASE: I want to say that we
13 did receive it.
14 MR. RICE: Yeah, I think you did get
15 something in on that too. I don't have it with me,
16 but I think you're okay on that.
17 MS. PICKARD: Should we go with that
18 or should we make it conditional?
19 MR. KERRICK: Can you go look it up
20 and I'll keep going?
21 MS. HAASE: I can attempt to.
22 MR. RICE: I mean, the alternative
23 is (inaudible) unless the waiver comes in.
24 MS. PICKARD: There would be like a
25 conditional denial?
79
1 MR. RICE: Unless you get a waiver
2 where the time expires.
3 MR. KERRICK: It's kind of a slap in
4 their faces if they've already sent the waiver in
5 and they read the minutes today. Why are we not
6 following that?
7 MS. PICKARD: Because Pat said it
8 would be handled in the solicitor's report, and if
9 there was a problem that John would bring it up, so
10 I'm assuming John --
11 MR. RICE: I have my solicitor's
12 report right here and there's nothing in there
13 about Wee-Wons.
14 MS. HAASE: We received a time
15 waiver extending the time to October 13 of 2009.
16 MR. KERRICK: Thank you, Ms. Haase.
17 MS. HAASE: You're welcome.
18 MR. KERRICK: Does anyone from the
19 board have anything else?
20 MS. PICKARD: There's two more items
21 on the agenda.
22 MR. KERRICK: I don't have two more
23 items and I'm ready to adjourn.
24 MR. KEENER: I have kind of an item
25 I'd like to --
80
1 MR. KERRICK: That's three.
2 MS. PICKARD: Well, these will be
3 quick. You said you wanted that Lehigh River E.V.
4 letter of nonsupport.
5 MR. KERRICK: Do we have a motion to
6 send out -- to have Heidi draft a letter and send
7 it?
8 MS. PICKARD: I'll make a motion
9 that we send a letter not supporting the
10 exceptional value petition.
11 MR. KERRICK: Motion on the floor.
12 Do we have a second?
13 MR. MOYER: Second.
14 MR. KERRICK: Motion and second.
15 Questions or comments?
16 Questions or comments from the
17 public?
18 Call the vote.
19 Jamie?
20 MR. KEENER: I vote in favor.
21 MS. LAMBERTON: I vote in favor.
22 MR. KERRICK: Donny?
23 MR. MOYER: I vote in favor.
24 MR. KERRICK: Heidi?
25 MS. PICKARD: I vote in favor.
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1 MR. KERRICK: I vote in favor.
2 Motion carried.
3 Next item?
4 MS. PICKARD: We had received kind
5 of a circuitous question about getting a letter of
6 support out on an urgent care facility that would
7 be going into the Blakeslee, Lake Harmony area.
8 I don't know if you want to bring
9 that up. Do you want to discuss that?
10 MR. MOYER: No, I just got it today
11 so --
12 MR. KERRICK: Can we have some other
13 information for our next meeting or do you feel
14 that we --
15 MS. PICKARD: Does this need to
16 be --
17 MR. MOYER: I mean, they're not
18 asking for much. I don't know nothing about it
19 myself.
20 MR. KERRICK: I think the developer
21 of this property is looking for support from the
22 township to pass along to his client, that he
23 thinks it's needed in the area.
24 Is that what they're requesting?
25 MR. KEENER: Yeah. They just want
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1 some concurrence or support from the township that
2 there is a need on the top of the mountain for an
3 urgent care facility, considering the distance to
4 get to Pocono Medical and to, I guess, Geisinger or
5 anywhere else.
6 There is a project that I -- HRG is
7 actually involved with that isn't necessarily in
8 Tobyhanna Township, but they're looking for the
9 support, just a general vicinity of the need. Just
10 a letter of support, if that was of interest to the
11 rest of the supervisors is all they would be
12 looking for.
13 MR. KERRICK: My comment would be
14 that -- my initial thoughts are, I would support
15 it, but I certainly would like more -- I mean, I
16 support the concept, but it's really like a poke in
17 the dark here. I don't know what I'm supporting.
18 MR. KEENER: Yeah, and it's early at
19 this point. It's, you know, a consideration.
20 Nothing formally has been submitted to -- it's
21 actually in Kidder Township. There's a sketch plan
22 that has been prepared, but nothing has been
23 submitted formally at this point. But I guess
24 there is some general interest in the project and
25 they were looking for support before they go to the
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1 legislators to discuss it and try to reinstate
2 support as well.
3 MR. MOYER: Well, basically they're
4 just asking if we were in support of that idea?
5 MR. KERRICK: The concept.
6 MR. KEENER: The concept, whether
7 it -- I mean, it could end up being in Tobyhanna
8 Township, but we don't know that at this point.
9 MS. PICKARD: Well, we would
10 certainly prefer that. The one comment I would
11 want to make is, as a chair to Pocono Mountain
12 Regional EMS and I think maybe Ed --
13 MR. TUTRONE: You're asking whether
14 or not, is it gonna help us?
15 MS. PICKARD: Well, I think that if
16 people have a place to go when they cut themselves
17 to go rather than take an ambulance ride, it
18 certainly should help. Maybe not enough, but it's
19 better than not having. But we have a lot of
20 people that ride the ambulances with toothaches and
21 broken fingernails and hangnails. So I would think
22 from that standpoint I don't see where --
23 MR. TUTRONE: I don't think it's
24 gonna benefit us just for the simple reason that
25 when the people take that ambulance ride it's
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1 because they don't have a vehicle or --
2 MS. PICKARD: Well, that's
3 another --
4 MR. TUTRONE: Yeah. And that's the
5 main reason why they're doing that. And we would
6 not be able to transport to a facility like that.
7 MS. PICKARD: No, no.
8 MS. LAMBERTON: Oh.
9 MR. TUTRONE: It has to be a
10 licensed hospital for us to transport it to.
11 MR. KEENER: Well, it may be that.
12 MR. TUTRONE: If it's that then --
13 MR. KERRICK: This is just a
14 concept.
15 MR. TUTRONE: Yeah. That would be
16 good.
17 MR. KERRICK: I have no problem
18 supporting it at this time.
19 MS. PICKARD: The ambulance can't go
20 unless they will admit to a bed. So do we want
21 more information or do you --
22 MR. KERRICK: As it becomes
23 available, sure.
24 MS. PICKARD: Well, we could say we
25 generally agree with the concept and if they give
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1 us more information we could maybe formalize that.
2 MR. KERRICK: Fine.
3 MR. MOYER: Yeah. I like that. It
4 sounds good.
5 MS. LAMBERTON: Yeah.
6 MR. KERRICK: Next item.
7 MS. PICKARD: I think Jamie had one.
8 MR. KEENER: Yeah, in light of my
9 recent healthy activities, running the marathon,
10 it's come to my attention that I support
11 rail-to-trail projects. And in light of our
12 wanting to stay on the side of open space and
13 recreational activity opportunities, I would like
14 us to consider pursuing the Wilkes-Barre and
15 Eastern Rail Line as a potential rail-trail
16 project. Maybe at this point no more than to
17 identify it on an official map as something that we
18 might pursue in the future.
19 Sorry, Phyllis. But the -- if you
20 look at our current map, the rail line -- actually,
21 if you know where Sullivan Trail and Long Pond
22 Road -- and did we get the official map?
23 MS. PICKARD: Phyllis is going to
24 get that. We got the first draft, predraft.
25 MR. KEENER: Okay. The existing
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1 rail line actually comes through just north of the
2 Sullivan Trail, Long Pond Road intersection. It
3 cuts through the west school campus across right
4 where Sullivan Trail -- just before where Sullivan
5 Trail meets 940, and then goes through much of the
6 existing 940 right-of-way.
7 MR. KERRICK: Is it 940?
8 MR. KEENER: Around Pocono Pines,
9 940.
10 MR. KERRICK: New 940. That's the
11 rail.
12 MR. KEENER: It then cuts across the
13 rail line. You can see the abandoned bridge on the
14 north side of 940 through Pocono Lake, angles in --
15 what is it, PPL substation right adjacent to that
16 and then cuts north. It sort of parallels Brady's
17 Lake Road, it's actually over here, and then leaves
18 and goes into Coolbaugh Township and actually
19 extends all the way up into Moosic and then into
20 Wilkes-Barre.
21 There's a gentleman, and I don't
22 know his name but it's on the Internet, he has
23 actually walked much of the old right-of-way and
24 has documented it with photos and a description of
25 some of the trail. But it goes the whole way to
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1 Stroudsburg through Big Pocono and it's something
2 that I think is worth just keeping in mind going
3 forward. I think it would be an opportunity.
4 Again, we look for recreational
5 opportunities, you know, as the ATV people were
6 here. There's also bike people, mountain bike
7 people that would probably use the right-of-way.
8 Whether we could get all of it secured in the
9 public right-of-way or not, I'm not sure, but at
10 least significant portions of it at least we could.
11 Again, I just wanted to bring that up as
12 something that --
13 MS. PICKARD: Does that go to the
14 state --
15 MR. KEENER: Yes.
16 MR. MOYER: From where to where are
17 they looking to do it from?
18 MR. KEENER: Well, it's -- we
19 already have a secured right-of-way through the
20 gamelands and there's already a trail there and
21 there's some bridge crossings. I'm saying it could
22 link up the whole way to Big Pocono State Park.
23 MR. MOYER: I'm just saying there's
24 definitely gonna be a need to go in there and --
25 it's so overgrown where it hasn't been touched,
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1 like from the preserve all the way through the old
2 bridge --
3 MR. KERRICK: Some you won't get
4 back. Some you won't get back as much, maybe
5 you'll get adjacent or a shoulder or --
6 MR. KEENER: Well, it may not get
7 the exact right-of-way back, but it might tie into
8 other public roadways like 940, so we would have
9 the shoulder if, you know. And not everybody wants
10 to go from Big Pocono the whole way to
11 Wilkes-Barre. We might have a parking area, you
12 know, adjacent to Brady's Lake and be able to
13 access it through the state park, you know, and go
14 from there to Wilkes-Barre.
15 Or, you know, maybe somebody wants
16 to come into Pocono Pines and, you know, stay in a
17 motel or something or bed and breakfast in Pocono
18 Pines and go from there and ride to Wilkes-Barre.
19 And it's just -- I think there's --
20 MR. KERRICK: Your support is just
21 for the Tobyhanna Township part or the whole
22 concept?
23 MR. KEENER: Well, I think it would
24 be a bigger -- Monroe County would be involved and
25 I think the -- I've expressed it to Matt
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1 Mead (phonetic) and Christine DeTori (phonetic),
2 and I think that's why they came up with this
3 official map that shows -- actually shows the old
4 rail line on it. And, yeah, here it comes down
5 through the park, cuts out from the 940, swings
6 around, and then it gets back across the lake,
7 swings back down, and then -- at the 940
8 right-of-way and then cuts off on the east side of
9 the Lake Naomi and then cuts across --
10 (Inaudible discussion.)
11 MR. KEENER: Yeah, and there's some
12 stubs off for the ice house here. There's a stub
13 off that went into Brady's Lake.
14 MS. LAMBERTON: And this is proposed
15 to go this way?
16 MR. MOYER: No, this is the main
17 line.
18 MS. PICKARD: That's electric? We
19 have gotten a rough draft right before we got to
20 the meeting with the definitions. Carson had
21 dropped this off for us to look at, so that's
22 something maybe we could put on our work session
23 for August to go over.
24 MR. KERRICK: Yeah, I think it's a
25 good idea.
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1 MR. KEENER: Again, there's a lot of
2 grant money out for these types of projects, you
3 know, it would be something that I wouldn't want to
4 spend a lot of money on; but I think there's
5 rail-trail organizations that are out there that I
6 think would be interested in getting involved too.
7 You know, if you look at it, a
8 significant portion of it is public right-of-way,
9 whether it's 940 corridor or the state gamelands.
10 MR. MOYER: I'm sure we wouldn't get
11 it in the preserve. I just know there's so many
12 area in there --
13 MR. KEENER: But the preserve might
14 like a connection for its residents to buy into it
15 and to go from there.
16 MR. MOYER: But I don't know that
17 they'd open it to the public, but they might want
18 it for their own --
19 MR. KERRICK: Very little is on the
20 preserve.
21 MR. MOYER: Yeah. And it's just
22 that, right where they went down by the ice house.
23 MR. KERRICK: But that might be a
24 stub they might want. And it goes through Wagner's
25 and up through Brady's --
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1 MR. TUTRONE: John, isn't that
2 bridge gone?
3 MR. KERRICK: The one on 940, yeah.
4 But up in Brady's Lake, Jamie's correct, a lot of
5 those bridges the gamelands have rebuilt and they
6 are working bridges.
7 MR. KEENER: Yeah, if you go into
8 that --
9 MR. KERRICK: You've been in there
10 for --
11 MR. TUTRONE: I meant the one in --
12 MR. KEENER: Pocono Lake.
13 MR. TUTRONE: Yeah, Pocono Lake,
14 that's gone.
15 MR. KERRICK: Yeah, that's gone.
16 MR. KEENER: It's pretty obvious
17 that one's gone. We'll lay some telephone poles
18 across it and --
19 MR. KERRICK: Anything else from the
20 board?
21 MR. KEENER: I will not be here on
22 the 3rd of August for the work session.
23 MR. KERRICK: You got some nerve.
24 MR. KEENER: I'll be on vacation.
25 MS. PICKARD: Do you want to write
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1 up any comments to discuss the --
2 MR. KEENER: I'll actually put
3 together the package that I got off the Internet.
4 It has a bunch of photos and descriptions of the
5 trails. And I'm actually looking at some of the
6 history of the Wilkes-Barre and Eastern Railroad.
7 It's actually Coolbaugh Township, their history
8 book talks a little bit about it and what the
9 purpose of it was. And actually it stopped
10 operation in 1939.
11 MS. PICKARD: Will you be available
12 if we have any questions?
13 MR. KEENER: No.
14 MR. KERRICK: Anyone else from the
15 public wish to address the board?
16 We're adjourned. Thanks for coming.
17 (Meeting concluded at 6:28 p.m.)
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7 I hereby certify that the
8 proceedings and evidence are contained fully and
9 accurately, to the best of my ability, in the notes
10 taken by me at the meeting in the above matter; and
11 that the foregoing is a true and correct transcript
12 of the same.
13
14
15 _____________________________
16 EVILYS E. BRATHWAITE
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