Before
THE TOBYHANNA TOWNSHIP BOARD OF SUPERVISORS
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In Re: Regular Business Meeting
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Tobyhanna Township Government Center Building
State Avenue
Pocono Pines, Pennsylvania 18350
Monday, March 9, 2009, beginning at 7 p.m.
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PRESENT: JOHN E. KERRICK, Chairperson
HEIDI A. PICKARD, Vice-Chairperson
HUGH LAMBERTON, Board Member
PATRICK M. ARMSTRONG, ESQUIRE
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Panko Reporting
537 Sarah Street, 2nd Floor
Stroudsburg, Pennsylvania 18360
(570) 421-3620
2
1 MR. KERRICK: I'd like to
2 welcome everyone here this evening for the regular
3 business meeting of the board of supervisors.
4 Call the meeting with the pledge.
5 (Pledge of Allegiance.)
6 MR. KERRICK: First item on our
7 agenda this evening is announcements. Do we have
8 any?
9 MS. PICKARD: Not at the moment.
10 MR. KERRICK: Okay. Consider
11 the minutes of January 12, 2009, regular business
12 meeting.
13 MS. PICKARD: I have a
14 correction on the January 12th minutes. On page
15 22, line 3, it should read Entech, E-n-t-e-c-h,
16 rather than Pentech, line 3 page 22. With that
17 adjustment, I'll make a motion to approve the
18 January 12th regular business meeting.
19 MR. LAMBERTON: Second the
20 motion.
21 MR. KERRICK: With correction?
22 MS. PICKARD: Yes.
23 MR. KERRICK: Second with
24 correction?
25 MR. LAMBERTON: Yes.
3
1 MR. KERRICK: Motion and second
2 on the floor. Any questions from the board?
3 Questions from the public on the motion?
4 Call the vote. Mr. Lamberton?
5 MR. LAMBERTON: I vote in favor.
6 MR. KERRICK: Heidi?
7 MS. PICKARD: I vote in favor.
8 MR. KERRICK: I vote in favor.
9 Motion carried.
10 Next item on the agenda,
11 consider the treasurer's report dated March 9,
12 2009, total amount for board approval, $138,356.10.
13 MS. PICKARD: I make a motion we
14 approve the March 9, 2009 bill packet of
15 $138,356.10.
16 MR. LAMBERTON: Second the
17 motion.
18 MR. KERRICK: Motion and second.
19 Questions or comments from the board? Questions or
20 comments from the public on the motion?
21 Call the vote. Mr. Lamberton?
22 MR. LAMBERTON: I vote in favor.
23 MR. KERRICK: Heidi?
24 MS. PICKARD: I vote in favor.
25 MR. KERRICK: I vote in favor.
4
1 Motion carried.
2 Next item, solicitor's report.
3 I'll turn it over to you, Pat.
4 MR. ARMSTRONG: Yes. This
5 evening we have advertised for a public hearing for
6 a proposed rezoning and amendment to the zoning map
7 of the township. If the supervisors recall, this
8 process began back in August of 2008, when the
9 property owner, Pocono Manor Investors, petitioned
10 the township to consider rezoning a number of
11 parcels owned by Pocono Manor. I think there were
12 three parcels total that they requested to be
13 rezoned. Since that time there was a public
14 hearing on the petition itself. The petitioner
15 attended the public hearing. There was discussion.
16 There was public comments pursuant to the requested
17 zoning change.
18 And then subsequent to that the
19 township continued to consider what the applicant
20 was requesting. And after considering the
21 comprehensive plan, the neighboring zoning
22 districts surrounding the properties, the request
23 to have the three parcels rezoned to C, commercial,
24 and further considering, obviously, the
25 Municipalities Planning Code and planning
5
1 requirements placed on the township, the township
2 came to the conclusion that only one of the parcels
3 was appropriate to rezone to C, commercial; that
4 parcel being the large -- currently it's zoned RR.
5 It's identified as Lot No. 4 on Exhibit B of the
6 proposed ordinance, and further identified as Tax
7 Map Parcel No. 19/111902. And that parcel is
8 currently being zoned RR, rural residential.
9 The proposed ordinance proposes to rezone that to
10 C, commercial and the township did not decide to
11 include the other two parcels that the petitioner
12 was requesting to have rezoned.
13 Subsequent to coming to that
14 conclusion or decision, the township decided to
15 prepare a proposed ordinance rezoning that parcel
16 from RR to C, commercial, and, furthermore,
17 advertised it twice in The Pocono Record, once on
18 February 23rd and another date on March 2nd, for a
19 public hearing at this evening's meeting, which
20 began at 7:00 this evening. The proposed ordinance
21 has also been reviewed by the Monroe County
22 Planning Commission, as well as the Tobyhanna
23 Township Planning Commission. There is a review
24 letter from the county dated February 12, 2009.
25 And there is also a recommendation from the
6
1 Tobyhanna Township Planning Commission that the
2 proposed ordinance be adopted.
3 The draft ordinance has also
4 been posted at the property pursuant to the
5 requirements of the Municipalities Planning Code.
6 A copy of it has also been provided to the Monroe
7 County Law Library, as well as a full copy of the
8 ordinance has been provided to The Pocono Record
9 for public availability.
10 And, like I said, the purpose of
11 the ordinance is just that, to rezone the current
12 zoning map, that particular parcel from RR to
13 C/residential, Lot No. 4, as identified on Exhibit
14 B of the ordinance. It's been advertised for a
15 public hearing this evening. We can have that
16 public hearing. Is there any comments or concerns
17 from the board at this time?
18 MR. LAMBERTON: No.
19 MS. PICKARD: No.
20 MR. ARMSTRONG: At this time it
21 is a public hearing. I'll open it up to the
22 public. I see that counsel for Pocono Manor is
23 here as well. I don't know if Pocono Manor as a
24 petitioner has anything to say, but at this time
25 I'll open it up to the public for a public hearing.
7
1 MR. MARC WOLFE. If I may
2 address the board?
3 As Pat noted, on October 13th
4 there was a hearing before this board, at which
5 time James Cahill testified. And I have a
6 transcript of his testimony. I had expected Jim to
7 be available tonight to give a reiteration of his
8 testimony, but I learned late this afternoon he may
9 be unavailable, and apparently he is unavailable.
10 So, I have three copies, if we could have one
11 marked Exhibit A. There should be three for you to
12 share. And I'd like to spread upon the minutes of
13 the record tonight the testimony of Mr. Cahill on
14 the October 13th proceedings, which I think is on
15 point.
16 The tract in question is shown
17 under ordinance. It's also shown as the shaded
18 parcel on what is called Exhibit B. I'll introduce
19 this into the record also, which should now show as
20 the part below the creek and above Sullivan Trail,
21 and between 380 and the Pocono Township/Tobyhanna
22 Township property line.
23 A VOICE: Would you speak up,
24 sir?
25 MR. MARC WOLFE: I'll try.
8
1 This parcel is self-contained. It is between, as I
2 said, the Pocono Township/Tobyhanna Township
3 property line and Interstate 380. It is to the
4 north of Sullivan Trail. And it would just extend
5 the C zone beyond the creek to match up to the
6 existing C zone on that side of the property.
7 The reason for the requested
8 change are in Mr. Cahill's testimony. Mr. Cahill
9 testified that the property is essentially
10 unsuitable for the RR uses given the proximity of
11 the highway, the high tension line, the sandpit,
12 which is the gravel excavation area. And the most
13 suitable zoning for this particular property, given
14 the physical characteristics and location, is the C
15 zoning district. And for the reasons set forth in
16 Mr. Cahill's testimony on October 13th, we request
17 that the board adopt the ordinance tonight.
18 MR. ARMSTRONG: Thank you, Mr.
19 Wolfe.
20 It is a public hearing. It's
21 been opened up to the public for public comment.
22 If there is anyone here from the public that want
23 to comment on the proposed ordinance, please
24 identify yourself, the township in which you reside
25 in and your address.
9
1 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: If I may
2 address the board, please? My name is Diane
3 Caldwell. I live at Lot 403 in Blueberry Estates,
4 which is part of Emerald Lakes, a private
5 residential community. I'm on the township line
6 between Tobyhanna Township and Pocono Township.
7 The development basically encompasses two roads in
8 back of where my house is located and approximately
9 affects about 73 homes within that subdivision.
10 It also affects approximately another 40 homes
11 going down Sullivan Trail from the Tobyhanna
12 Township line straight to Long Pond Road. Those
13 homes are also part of the Emerald Lakes private
14 residential community. I'm not having --
15 MR. MARC WOLFE: Ma'am?
16 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: Excuse me.
17 Could I speak?
18 MR. WOLFE: Yes. I just want
19 you to identify where your home is.
20 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: Lot 403,
21 Blueberry.
22 MR. MARC WOLFE: There is a map
23 up there, if you can just show us where your home
24 is, so I can orient it.
25 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: This is
10
1 Sullivan Trail. Where is 380 on the map?
2 MR. KERRICK: Right here.
3 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: I'm right
4 here. I'm on the township line.
5 MR. KERRICK: This is the
6 township line here.
7 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: This is the
8 subdivision, isn't it?
9 MR. KERRICK: This is Emerald
10 Lakes.
11 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: That's me.
12 MR. KERRICK: You're in Emerald
13 Lakes. I thought you said you were in Blueberry.
14 I apologize.
15 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: Blueberry
16 is part of Emerald Estates. I have a court order
17 that says I'm in Emerald Lakes property.
18 MR. KERRICK: I'm not
19 questioning that. I wasn't aware of that.
20 MR. MARC WOLFE: You're on this
21 side of 380?
22 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: If you're
23 coming from Long Pond Road, I'm on the right-hand
24 side past the 380 overpass.
25 MR. MARC WOLFE: In relationship
11
1 to the shaded area, where is your --
2 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: Right here.
3 MR. MARC WOLFE: So you're on
4 the other side of the highway?
5 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: Correct.
6 MR. MARC WOLFE: Okay.
7 MR. KERRICK: Thank you.
8 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: My
9 questions are, there were two other lots that you
10 were going to consider rezoning, one of them, I
11 guess, being Lake Naomi, but those two the board
12 decided not to zone them as commercial, is that
13 correct? Is that what I heard?
14 MR. ARMSTRONG: Yes.
15 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: For what
16 reasons?
17 MR. LAMBERTON: Would you repeat
18 that? We can't hear you.
19 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: You just
20 said that there were two other parcels that were up
21 for rezoning, but the board decided that those were
22 not going to be rezoned.
23 MS. PICKARD: They were part of
24 Pocono Manor.
25 MR. KERRICK: The parcels
12
1 underneath there.
2 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: For what
3 reasons weren't they -- for what reasons were they
4 decided not to be rezoned commercial, but yet our
5 parcels of land in that part of the roadway is
6 still determined to be rezoned? Sullivan Trail
7 runs 12 miles starting from Pocono Township
8 straight through to Pocono pines.
9 MR. KERRICK: But the parcel by
10 you is one that we decided not to consider at all.
11 MS. PICKARD: It's on the
12 right-hand side. It's on the same side.
13 MR. KERRICK: It's on the same
14 side. Where you pointed to where your house is, it
15 says R2 where it's not shaded, that we considered
16 -- we didn't consider that at all.
17 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: But the
18 road itself, Sullivan Trail, is being considered to
19 be from RR to commercial, am I understanding that
20 correctly? Because if you go under the 380
21 overpass, you're on Sullivan Trail. Sullivan Trail
22 leads to my development.
23 MR. KERRICK: Here's the
24 overpass right here. So from the overpass south,
25 it's not being considered.
13
1 MS. PICKARD: The planning
2 commission recommended the boundary be Sullivan
3 Trail Road.
4 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: That's the
5 road I'm on.
6 MS. PICKARD: The left side
7 going --
8 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: Right,
9 because that's Pocono Manor property on the left.
10 MS. PICKARD: The small tract
11 that was to the right of Sullivan Trail.
12 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: So, I guess
13 I'm not understanding what exactly the plan is to
14 rezone that parcel commercial when I live on that
15 state road. And if it's zoned commercial, am I to
16 assume that we'll have whoever wants to come in, as
17 any truck that wants to come in, any other
18 commercial property that wants to be built on there
19 can come in, and what the ramifications are and how
20 it affects me as a private residential community?
21 MR. ARMSTRONG: Well, if it's
22 rezoned to C, Commercial, any use that's permitted
23 in a C, Commercial District in the zoning ordinance
24 can be used there.
25 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: And what
14
1 would that be like?
2 MR. ARMSTRONG: If you look at
3 the C, Commercial District, Article 8, of the
4 township zoning ordinance, some of the permitted
5 uses are hotels, motels, restaurants and other
6 establishments for serving food and restaurants and
7 beverages; gift/antique shops; retail stores; food
8 markets; drug stores; bakeries; hardware stores;
9 sporting good stores; personal service shops, like
10 barber and beauty shops, dry cleaning and laundry
11 pickup service.
12 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: So that
13 gives us a picture of what we could expect.
14 MR. ARMSTRONG: There is a whole
15 list of permitted uses. Mind you, I don't know if
16 you're thinking when you said trucks, it's not the
17 C/I. That would be commercial industrial.
18 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: No. We
19 already have trucks down by where the quad facility
20 is that's part of Pocono Manor that zoom up and
21 down our roads.
22 MR. ARMSTRONG: When you say
23 trucks, you're saying trucks using the road?
24 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: Dump trucks
25 from F&F Paving that come out of Pocono Manor's
15
1 facility there by the quad tracks.
2 MR. ARMSTRONG: Well, it's a
3 public road, right?
4 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: It's a
5 state road.
6 MR. ARMSTRONG: Okay.
7 MS. DIANE CALDWELL:
8 Unfortunately, on the state road, for the past 20
9 years that these developments have been put up,
10 they have been all residential up until this point.
11 So we were protected to a degree under the
12 residential coding that, you know, our houses would
13 be protected from all of what is going on here this
14 evening.
15 MR. ARMSTRONG: Well, I mean,
16 I'm not sure what you mean by protected, but
17 currently it's an RR District, which means whatever
18 is permitted in the RR District could be put in
19 there.
20 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: Okay.
21 MR. ARMSTRONG: Now, after
22 considering the comprehensive plan, I know the
23 township has had a concern about the lack of
24 commercial space within the township, and after
25 considering that and a number of other things, I
16
1 believe -- correct me if I'm wrong, but I think
2 that's how you came about coming up with the idea
3 to rezone that to C, commercial. But, yeah, if you
4 wanted to look at the permitted uses under the C,
5 Commercial District in zoning --
6 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: Well, you
7 pretty much made it clear what the permitted uses
8 would be. I guess that's why we are all here
9 tonight, is, you know, number one the economy has
10 affected the housing industry at this point. So,
11 you're not even getting your value for your home
12 for what it's worth right now. You turn it over to
13 commercial, I mean, what is that doing to the
14 equity and the value of our homes, number one?
15 Number two, what ramifications does it have making
16 this commercial and how it affects us as a
17 residential development?
18 I mean, we have to live here.
19 And that would have a major impact on how it's
20 going to affect that road. I mean, I understand to
21 bring revenue into the community because you don't
22 have enough commercial zoning going on to bring the
23 revenue into the township, but you have to
24 understand as homeowners we are looking to protect
25 the value of our homes and the safety of our homes.
17
1 This is not logical enough to say that when I live
2 a thousand feet away from this project, my home is
3 not going to suffer by it, you know? I have been
4 protected for 20 years, protecting my home with my
5 children living in it, and everybody else in this
6 room that may have small children, to impact us
7 like that with zoning this commercial.
8 And I guess my other question
9 is, you have two townships involved in this, which
10 is Pocono Township. The lady next door to me is in
11 Pocono Township, but she's not an Emerald Lakes
12 property. Pocono Township in their minutes from
13 last year, they kept it as recreational, and that's
14 a thousand feet away -- the house next to me is a
15 thousand feet away from this Pocono Manor project.
16 It encompasses a lot of homes.
17 MR. ARMSTRONG: Do you know what
18 is permitted in a recreational district.
19 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: Well, I
20 have their minutes here, if you're more than happy
21 to look at them.
22 MR. ARMSTRONG: No. Do you have
23 their permitted uses?
24 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: Yes, I have
25 it. I just gotta find it. Right here. Would you
18
1 like to see it?
2 MR. ARMSTRONG: Sure. I mean,
3 what you're saying, just be aware there is no land
4 development plan before the township at this time.
5 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: For now?
6 MR. ARMSTRONG: Right. It's a
7 proposed zoning change.
8 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: Right. But
9 once it gets proposed and it does get classified
10 commercial, of course you know something is going
11 to happen to it. I mean, you don't have to be an
12 idiot to figure that out. You're looking down at
13 the proposed ramifications of this project. I
14 don't plan on selling my house tomorrow. So, I
15 have to live with this. And, again, I'm going to
16 stress, under court order, I am in a private
17 residential community that's part of Emerald Lakes.
18 I want protection. And this is not going to
19 protect our homes, our values or our children, on
20 top of the fact you have some major issues also
21 going on on Sullivan Trail where you have, from
22 PennDOT, you have curb obstruction, that driveway
23 permits are not being allowed to be given out.
24 There is a whole lot of research that I have done
25 in this subdivision to know, through the township,
19
1 what is going on on Sullivan Trail.
2 So with all of the curb
3 obstructions and speed limits and everything else
4 that are happening on Sullivan Trail, I think the
5 board should really reconsider looking at this
6 project, because there is a lot more that needs to
7 be said than what maybe everybody else knows. I
8 mean, I litigated for 12 years. There is nothing
9 that -- there isn't a thing anybody can't tell me
10 about Blueberry Estates and that whole strip on
11 Sullivan Trail. So that's all I have to say.
12 I don't know if there is anybody else that has
13 anything to say.
14 MR. KERRICK: Could we have your
15 name, please?
16 MS. BARBARA DeGEORGE: Barbara
17 DeGeorge.
18 MR. KERRICK: And you live in
19 Tobyhanna Township?
20 MS. BARBARA DeGEORGE: I live in
21 Tobyhanna, Emerald Lakes. When this proposal was
22 done, did anybody look on the impact that it would
23 have on these people?
24 MR. KERRICK: We haven't made a
25 decision yet, and I wanted to clarify that. We
20
1 have not made a decision. That is the purpose of
2 the hearing, to hear your opinions.
3 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: It involves
4 a couple hundred homes. I think really it should
5 be relooked at because maybe you weren't aware of
6 how many homes it really is going to affect, and
7 the community itself, and how it's going to affect
8 a private community. It's not just my subdivision,
9 it's all of Emerald Lakes and the roads on Sullivan
10 Trail that have to go into Emerald Lakes to go to
11 live. It's a lot. We have 1800 private
12 residential homes in that community. It's going to
13 have a huge impact.
14 MR. ARMSTRONG: This is a public
15 hearing. Like Mr. Kerrick has indicated, it's the
16 purpose of this hearing.
17 A VOICE: Are you done?
18 MS. BARBARA DeGEORGE: I asked
19 my question, and I didn't get an answer. Did
20 anybody look at the impact?
21 MR. KERRICK: I can't speak for
22 the planning commission, the Monroe County Planning
23 Commission. I can speak for us, and we are hearing
24 about it now. We reviewed it before, but we are
25 here to hear your comments. I can't speak for
21
1 those other committees.
2 MS. BARBARA DeGEORGE: You don't
3 know?
4 MR. KERRICK: No, I don't know.
5 MR. THOMAS CAMPSON: My name is
6 Thomas Campson, I live on Butz Lane, which is off
7 of Sullivan Trail, off of Dietz (phonetic) Lane.
8 My concerns are quite a few. One is I don't know
9 how many times that I've come down Sullivan Trail
10 and almost been hit by a dump truck over the double
11 yellow line coming out of that quarry. I'm sure
12 other people have experienced that as well.
13 Again, I agree wholeheartedly
14 with Mrs. Caldwell, you know, I don't want
15 businesses or anything in my backyard. I live in a
16 residential area. Now, you're considering putting
17 businesses in there. I mean, you've got a quarry
18 there already. The ATV course, I don't have a
19 problem with. Children need to play where they
20 need to play, to keep them off the streets, but my
21 main concern is the commercial property itself.
22 Yes, there is nothing to be planned now. What
23 about 10 years from now or 15 years from now? What
24 are they going to put in there? Is there any plan,
25 a plot plan or anything? Do you know of what they
22
1 plan on doing?
2 MR. KERRICK: To the best of my
3 knowledge, no, we have no plot plan.
4 MR. THOMAS CAMPSON: May I ask
5 the question of the attorney representing them?
6 MR. KERRICK: If he chooses to
7 answer.
8 MR. MARC WOLFE: There is no
9 plan presently that has been submitted to the
10 township on this. And what the developer will
11 choose to do with the land remains to be seen what
12 happens here tonight.
13 MR. THOMAS CAMPSON: You must
14 have some sort of plan if you want to make it
15 commercial. There has got to be something in the
16 wind here to say, hey, we want this commercial for
17 a reason. I mean, nobody has an answer? You don't
18 have an answer?
19 MR. MARC WOLFE: The answer that
20 Mr. Cahill gave during his testimony on October
21 13th was that the land is not suited for
22 residential, RR development, because of the high
23 tension line and the quarry, the lot's proximity to
24 Interstate 380, and other factors. The land is
25 more suitable for uses permitted in the C zone,
23
1 part of which includes the resort use, and Pocono
2 Manor is a resort. And the suggestion made at the
3 hearing on October 13th was that the land would be
4 more suited for the resort type uses contemplated
5 in the zoning ordinance of the township at the
6 present time.
7 MR. THOMAS CAMPSON: So it's not
8 for the residential, but you're going to put
9 business in there with high tension wires. Is that
10 what you're basically telling us, sir?
11 MR. MARC WOLFE: The resort uses
12 don't have to be purely business. As Mr. Armstrong
13 indicated, there are a number of uses permitted in
14 this zoning district. They don't all have to be C,
15 and they are certainly not industrial.
16 MR. KERRICK: Can I add
17 something? Are you aware that this is commercial
18 now, this portion right here?
19 MR. THOMAS CAMPSON: You're
20 talking about Pocono Township?
21 MR. KERRICK: No, no. The
22 existing Pocono Manor property within Tobyhanna
23 Township, this is adjacent to it, the shaded area,
24 but this is already commercial now.
25 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: That's
24
1 where the quad pit is.
2 MR. THOMAS CAMPSON: No, no.
3 The quarry is on the land that is proposed to be
4 rezoned.
5 MR. KERRICK: This is the golf
6 course along 380 and down. In the center here
7 there is a large conservation area.
8 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: That's
9 right across the street from my house. That's
10 where they post the signs no trespassing, no
11 hunting, no anything.
12 MR. KERRICK: It is zoned now.
13 There could be another residential development
14 there, you're aware of that, the way it's zoned?
15 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: I don't
16 mind anything residential.
17 MR. KERRICK: I just want you to
18 be aware of that.
19 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: I have a
20 problem with commercial, not residential.
21 MR. KERRICK: Okay. And no one
22 said that there would be an entrance off of
23 Sullivan Trail Road.
24 MR. MARC WOLFE: Let me also
25 indicate what Mr. Cahill testified, that this
25
1 property is to the east of Interstate 380. It is
2 self-contained. It does not border or touch upon
3 Emerald Lakes. There is another intervening piece
4 of Pocono Manor land on the west side of Interstate
5 380 to the Emerald Lakes boundary line, which is a
6 significant buffer area. It is to the north of
7 Sullivan Trail. There were only a few homes to the
8 south of Sullivan Trail immediately south of the
9 proposed property to be rezoned. So this property
10 that is proposed to be rezoned is very
11 self-contained. It doesn't border Emerald Lakes.
12 It does not affect Emerald Lakes. And any use of
13 the state highway will be governed by the state.
14 If the state issues a highway occupancy permit, the
15 applicant, whoever that may be, has to comply with
16 the state requirements.
17 So, these individuals who are
18 concerned about impact on Emerald Lakes, this is
19 completely and substantially distant from Emerald
20 Lakes on the eastern side of Interstate 380. And
21 Emerald Lakes is on the west side of Interstate
22 380, far removed from this property.
23 MR. ART CALDWELL: You have to
24 be corrected on that.
25 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: You have to
26
1 be definitely corrected on that.
2 MR. ART CALDWELL: The exact
3 property that you're talking about, Blueberry
4 Estates --
5 MR. ARMSTRONG: Can you tell us
6 your name?
7 MR. ART CALDWELL: My name is
8 Art Caldwell, same address as Diane Caldwell. And
9 Blueberry Estates is exactly across the street. He
10 says it doesn't border it. The only thing dividing
11 it is Sullivan Trail.
12 MS. BARBARA DeGEORGE: Is that
13 even part of Emerald Lakes?
14 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: Blueberry
15 Estates is part of the Emerald Lakes Community.
16 And I have a court order that stipulates we are
17 Emerald Lakes.
18 MR. MARC WOLFE: It's on the
19 map, and that's what Mr. Cahill testified to.
20 MR. THOMAS CAMPSON: Well, I
21 don't belong to Emerald Lakes. I am a taxpayer of
22 Tobyhanna Township. So, she has an issue with
23 Emerald Lakes. She's part of Emerald Lakes. I am
24 not. I'm just a taxpayer looking out for me and my
25 neighbors here. And as far as impact, if somehow
27
1 you're talking about this property, that does
2 adjoin Sullivan Trail. Am I not correct?
3 MR. MARC WOLFE: It is to the
4 north of Sullivan Trail. It is in the RR zone.
5 MR. THOMAS CAMPSON: Are you
6 talking about from Pocono Township borderline?
7 MR. MARC WOLFE: If you look at
8 the map that's in the record, it is to the west of
9 the Pocono Township/Tobyhanna Township property
10 line. It is to the east of Interstate 380.
11 It is to the north of Sullivan Trail
12 MR. THOMAS CAMPSON: Right.
13 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: That's us.
14 MR. THOMAS CAMPSON: That's
15 right. That property adjoins us via Sullivan
16 Trail.
17 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: There is no
18 property easement that joins that subdivision to
19 Emerald Lakes' main community.
20 MR. ARMSTRONG: Just so I am
21 understanding, Sullivan Trail comes down at a
22 little bit of a turnaround. North of Sullivan
23 Trail is what is proposed to being rezoned, and
24 your homes are just south of it, meaning you're
25 actually on Sullivan Trail.
28
1 MR. THOMAS CAMPSON: I'm on Butz
2 Lane, that's correct.
3 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: And I'm
4 right there.
5 MR. THOMAS CAMPSON: And she's
6 on Sullivan Trail. And I believe -- I don't know
7 if my other neighbors want to speak, but they also
8 live in Blueberry Estates. They are concerned as
9 well as I am. It's bad enough we have truck
10 traffic all day long, which I learned to live with
11 as a business there. I'll go along with it.
12 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: I don't
13 want anybody approaching me, knocking on my door
14 saying hey, your neighbor just sold and we are
15 going to put up a BP gas station next to your
16 house. It's zoned commercial. You just said you
17 can put anything in there.
18 MR. ARMSTRONG: You can't put
19 anything there.
20 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: Well,
21 according to what you're allowing to put there.
22 You could put a restaurant next door to me.
23 I don't want to live next to a restaurant.
24 MR. THOMAS CAMPSON: According
25 to a Recreational District in Pocono Township, it's
29
1 basically -- from what you read, it's the same
2 thing as their ordinances are, hotels, et cetera,
3 so on and so forth.
4 MR. ARMSTRONG: That's permitted
5 in the recreational district.
6 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: Right, in
7 Pocono Township.
8 MR. ARMSTRONG: Right. And this
9 proposed lot would be neighboring that, adjacent to
10 it.
11 MR. THOMAS CAMPSON: I wish I
12 would have known about that part of the property,
13 because I would have fought that too.
14 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: We were
15 never notified. Only posting.
16 MR. ARMSTRONG: For this one you
17 were.
18 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: Only for
19 February 3rd we got a letter. We didn't get
20 anything prior to that.
21 MR. THOMAS CAMPSON: I was never
22 notified.
23 MR. ARMSTRONG: Well, the
24 previous one was a hearing for the petition. There
25 was no ordinance adopted.
30
1 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: But there
2 was a town meeting.
3 MR. ARMSTRONG: The town
4 meetings are always advertised.
5 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: Where?
6 MR. ARMSTRONG: You got a notice
7 for this one because it's a proposed ordinance.
8 MR. THOMAS CAMPSON: I did not.
9 MR. ARMSTRONG: It depends on
10 where you live.
11 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: He lives in
12 the back of my house.
13 MR. THOMAS CAMPSON: Well, what
14 is the proximity to the property? Is it an area
15 involved?
16 MR. ARMSTRONG: According to the
17 MPC, the property that's proposed to be rezoned
18 needs to be posted. And the property proposed to
19 be rezoned needs to get a written notice. The fact
20 that you got a written notice just tells me that
21 the township has basically gone above and beyond
22 what it needed to do pursuant to the MPC.
23 MR. THOMAS CAMPSON: I called
24 the township because she got a letter and I didn't.
25 Nobody in our neighborhood got a letter. We had no
31
1 knowledge this was going on.
2 MR. ARMSTRONG: Well, it depends
3 on where your property is, sir. I'm sure it wasn't
4 a random selection of people.
5 MR. THOMAS CAMPSON: No, no, no.
6 I'm glad she told me, you know. Like I said, I
7 notified all my neighbors here and said, hey, you
8 know, let's address this.
9 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: Why wasn't
10 it posted somewhere in the vicinity of where this
11 is supposed to be rezoned at? There was no
12 posting. You know where it's posted? On the
13 Pocono Township side down on Sullivan Trail about a
14 mile from Mountain View Park.
15 MR. ARMSTRONG: Well, that's
16 where it needs -- it needs to be posted on the
17 property that's being rezoned. It can be posted at
18 several areas on that property.
19 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: It's not
20 posted anywhere visual to the property that's in
21 question. We went up and down Sullivan Trail.
22 We can't find it. We looked on every tree where it
23 should have been posted. It's not.
24 MS. PICKARD: They were posted.
25 MR. KERRICK: We had a problem
32
1 where people were taking posters down when the
2 property was posted. We don't post it. When the
3 zoning officer posts it, she takes a picture after
4 it's posted. So I don't know where she posted it.
5 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: Do you know
6 where that picture is?
7 MR. KERRICK: These might be the
8 ones that were taken down. I know we have a
9 picture of the posting.
10 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: Still have
11 to have it on the record that it was posted. So,
12 there has to be something that you can give us, a
13 picture of that it was posted and the public was
14 notified.
15 MR. KERRICK: Well, obviously
16 you are here, so you were notified. We are not
17 here to argue with you.
18 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: I was
19 notified by letter. It still should have been
20 posted where he's trying to do this plot plan of
21 commercializing this road. It should have been
22 posted by this attorney.
23 MR. ARMSTRONG: Ma'am, to the
24 best of our knowledge it was posted properly
25 pursuant to the code. And this is a public
33
1 hearing, so let's just keep the comments coming.
2 MR. THOMAS CAMPSON: Yes. The
3 bottom line is, as far as I'm concerned, and I'm
4 sure my neighbors will stand up and say their
5 piece, is that we are against this totally.
6 Like I said, it's bad enough that there's dump
7 trucks, triaxle trucks coming out of there driving
8 over the double yellow line, you know, because of
9 the safety factor, now you want to go in and put
10 commercial in. And they don't know what they want
11 to put in there as far as commercial. Well, what
12 this gentleman has just stated, they are not sure.
13 So where does that leave us, these children?
14 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: There is a
15 lot of children in Emerald Lakes and in Blueberry
16 Estates, a lot of children.
17 MR. THOMAS CAMPSON: You know,
18 there is no answers coming forth here from the
19 applicant as far as what they want to do with the
20 property.
21 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: I could see
22 if they had a proposed plan, they could tell us we
23 want to put up a hotel, we're going to do this,
24 we're going to do that and then you look at it and
25 you say, okay, should it be commercially zoned?
34
1 He has nothing really showing us or what his
2 intention or his plan is going to be down the road.
3 It's just zoned commercial, which means our taxes
4 will go up. Our mailing addresses will be
5 reclassified. And then we'll deal with the rest of
6 the ramifications
7 MR. MARC WOLFE: All that is not
8 going to happen.
9 MR. LAMBERTON: Why do you say
10 the taxes will go up?
11 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: When you
12 zone an area commercial, nine out of ten times the
13 taxes go up.
14 MR. LAMBERTON: Commercial will
15 pay a higher rate than residential.
16 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: Industrial
17 will absorb the taxes. Commercial doesn't.
18 MR. MARC WOLFE: Commercial will
19 produce more ratables than residential. If your
20 views prevail, this property is in the RR zone,
21 which permits residential and multi-family
22 residential uses, which will produce lower ratables
23 than a commercial use. So your taxes will go up if
24 you oppose this ordinance. They stand to be
25 subsidized if you support the ordinance because
35
1 they will be commercial ratables.
2 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: I disagree,
3 because I work at the Pocono Mountain School
4 District and I see how the formulations come up
5 with the school taxes, and how the millages are
6 determined based on the budget.
7 MR. MARC WOLFE: Ma'am, there
8 are a number of studies done by the Monroe County
9 Planning Commission, and they will test this out
10 for you. Whenever you do a large residential
11 project, it is a negative tax ratable to the school
12 district. It is somewhat positive to the county,
13 and it may be positive to the township, but maybe
14 barely.
15 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: If you can
16 introduce the plot plan so we can look at it.
17 MR. ARMSTRONG: This is a public
18 hearing. Let's try to be respectful to everyone
19 involved.
20 MR. MARC WOLFE: When you do a
21 commercial project, the ratables are typically
22 positive across the board for both the township,
23 the county and the school district. With regard to
24 a plot plan, the developer does not have an
25 immediate plan and will not be submitting an
36
1 immediate plan to the township. When the developer
2 has been before this township before, it has
3 discussed resort uses both in the area that is
4 presently commercial and in the area that is
5 proposed RR, resort uses for its resort, which
6 contains over 3,000 acres in three municipalities.
7 MR. THOMAS CAMPSON: Again,
8 I strongly oppose this just because I live there.
9 It's not nobody's backyard except ours. And I
10 think if it was in your backyard, I think you would
11 have concerns about it. It's in my backyard.
12 I have a major concern. And that's what I think my
13 neighbors want to say too
14 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: I think if
15 there was a proposed plan that they can show
16 everybody of what their intent may be down the road
17 to make this commercial, I think they have a little
18 bit more leverage. Right now you want to take a
19 road and put anything -- you want to zone this road
20 commercial with the ramifications and the impact
21 it's going to have on the Emerald Lakes' main
22 community, the subdivision of Emerald Lakes and all
23 the people on Sullivan Trail, including the people
24 in Pocono Township.
25 MR. MARC WOLFE: Ma'am, members
37
1 of the board, this notion of zoning a road
2 commercial is a puzzling concept. There is a
3 segment of Sullivan Trail Road in the area in
4 question, but Sullivan Trail goes all way through
5 Pocono Township. And all of the property -- I
6 believe almost the overwhelming majority of the
7 property of Pocono Manor in Pocono Township is in
8 the RD District, which is the recreational
9 district, which allows the very same resort uses
10 that we are seeking by having this property zoned
11 commercial in Tobyhanna Township. So any traffic
12 that would be on Sullivan Trail, the overwhelming
13 portion of the property, of Pocono Manor's
14 property, is in Pocono Township. Whatever is going
15 to be done is going to have the same impact. And
16 this zoning of the 193 acres in Tobyhanna Township
17 is going to have minimal impact on the state road
18 because, as you know, the long distance it goes
19 through Pocono Manor's property in Pocono Township.
20 It's a false notion.
21 MR. THOMAS CAMPSON: If I may
22 comment, since you speak about Pocono Township,
23 most of the property is there, why don't you just
24 build and do what you got to do over there and make
25 that -- it's already a recreational district, why
38
1 bother us? You're talking about 193 acres. You
2 mentioned 3,000 acres.
3 MR. ARMSTRONG: Sir, we are
4 getting a little off target here. I mean, what's
5 before the board tonight is a public hearing to
6 consider a proposed ordinance.
7 MR. THOMAS CAMPSON: I
8 apologize. I'm sorry.
9 MR. ARMSTRONG: So, let's try to
10 -- I mean, there has been no land development plan
11 submitted to the township. There's been no
12 subdivision plan submitted to the township. The
13 petition to rezone was submitted back in August of
14 '08. And subsequent to that the township decided
15 to authorize the advertisement for this public
16 hearing to hear the public comment on this proposed
17 ordinance. So, let's just stay on task with that.
18 MR. THOMAS CAMPSON: Okay.
19 MR. GIL WERNER: Good evening.
20 My name is Gil Werner. I'm the general manager for
21 Emerald Lakes. I wanted to go on record that the
22 board of directors of Emerald Lakes oppose this
23 change. Okay? I'll try to clarify this a little
24 bit. The counsel had said that when Mr. Cahill was
25 here in October, he talked about Emerald Lakes,
39
1 I believe that would be east of 380 -- excuse me,
2 west of 380 and south of State Route 4004. That's
3 the bulk of Emerald Lakes. We also have the
4 Estates at Emerald Lakes, which is in Tunkhannock
5 Township and we do have Blueberry Estates, which is
6 the other side of where these people are from.
7 There is a number of homes there. It's a
8 satellite, just as the Estates are, Blueberry
9 Estates. It's a satellite of Emerald Lakes as
10 well, but it is part of our development. As one
11 gentleman said, he lives in that area, but he is
12 not part of our association. We have a number of
13 homes there as well. So, I want to go on record
14 for the board of directors that we are opposed to
15 this change
16 MR. JOSEPH OLALL: My name is
17 Joseph Olall, and I'm a director on the Emerald
18 Lakes board. The question I got here, listening to
19 what is going on, as far as the advertising goes,
20 you said it was advertised in The Pocono Record.
21 For those who don't receive or subscribe to The
22 Pocono Record, what have you done for them?
23 MR. ARMSTRONG: The MPC provides
24 certain regulations that we have to go by --
25 MR. JOSEPH OLALL: I'm aware of
40
1 them.
2 MR. ARMSTRONG: -- when there is
3 a proposed ordinance change. And the requirements
4 for this is that it's a newspaper of general
5 circulation within Tobyhanna Township, which is The
6 Pocono Record. It was advertised twice successive
7 weeks pursuant to the MPC. Also, the legal notice
8 is posted at the township office. The proposed
9 ordinance was available at the township. The
10 proposed ordinance was not only available at The
11 Pocono Record, but also at the Monroe County Law
12 Library. And this was discussed several times.
13 The petition to rezone, that public hearing was
14 advertised as well. I mean, this has been, you
15 know, on the table of the board at public meetings
16 for the past -- since August of '08.
17 If you don't subscribe to that
18 particular newspaper and, you know, your property
19 is not one that's being proposed to be rezoned, I
20 mean, there is only so much that the township can
21 do to get the word out to provide the public with a
22 requisite notice. In this case they have done
23 everything required under the MPC, which is the
24 Municipalities Planning Code, as well as some
25 additional. It seems like some people received
41
1 mailings within a certain distance of the actual
2 property. So, I don't know if that answers your
3 question, but everything was done that's required
4 of the township and then some.
5 MR. JOSEPH OLALL: I'm just
6 curious. Was it posted on the website?
7 MS. PICKARD: I don't think so.
8 The minutes from the prior meetings have been on
9 the website.
10 MR. JOSEPH OLALL: The plan
11 itself, was that advertised in similar ways it was
12 in the papers?
13 MR. KERRICK: I don't believe
14 so.
15 MR. ARMSTRONG: No, probably
16 not. It might have been listed on the agenda for
17 every meeting that was discussed in public.
18 MR. JOSEPH OLALL: With respect
19 to the pictures that were taken, that the zoning
20 officer put the signs and put the picture up, you
21 happen to have those for display here?
22 MS. PICKARD: We can check with
23 our zoning officer tomorrow.
24 MR. JOSEPH OLALL: I'm sorry?
25 MS. PICKARD: We can check with
42
1 our zoning officer tomorrow.
2 MR. JOSEPH OLALL: So, you don't
3 have the pictures here?
4 MR. ARMSTRONG: Well, wait. I
5 can check. You can you keep going.
6 MR. JOSEPH OLALL: Also, while
7 we're looking at that, the planning commission, you
8 know, the study they did, the recommendations that
9 they made, do you have those? Are those available
10 for us to review?
11 MR. ARMSTRONG: It would be
12 referenced in the minutes of the planning
13 commission meetings. As to an actual study, you're
14 talking about a study?
15 MR. JOSEPH OLALL: Right.
16 MR. ARMSTRONG: You know, the
17 planning commission, they looked at the
18 comprehensive plan, they looked at the neighboring
19 zoning districts, they looked at the fact that
20 north of the proposed land is zoned commercial, to
21 the east of the proposed rezoning in the
22 neighboring township is currently recreational and
23 apparently those permitted uses kind of line up
24 with the commercial district. You know, a lot of
25 things were taken into account. You have to look
43
1 at the minutes of the meetings to really see what
2 was discussed. As for the Monroe County Planning
3 Commission, I can't speak for what Monroe County
4 did.
5 MR. JOSEPH OLALL: Do we have
6 copies of those here for the public to review?
7 MS. PICKARD: If you want to
8 come in tomorrow and fill out a request for open
9 records, to ask for those items, we'd be happy to
10 get those for you.
11 MR. JOSEPH OLALL: Also,
12 officially representing the board of directors, as
13 well as the general manager, we are all opposed to
14 this, wholeheartedly opposed to this. We feel it's
15 not in the best interest of the private community
16 to have a commercial rezoning right across the
17 roadway. That's not the reason why a lot of us
18 moved out here. Okay. Thank you.
19 MR. TOM SCRIVANI: Tom Scrivani.
20 I live on Lot 215, Blueberry Estates, across from
21 Mr. Campson on Butz Lane.
22 MR. KERRICK: I'm sorry. Is
23 that in Tobyhanna Township?
24 MR. TOM SCRIVANI: Yes. I'm
25 just looking for -- I'd like to go on record, I'm
44
1 opposed to the project. I just want to ask a
2 couple of questions. They say the parcel in
3 question here is not suitable for residential
4 living. My question is, if somewhere down the road
5 the developer decides to put up a hotel, what is
6 the difference of people living in a structure not
7 full-time, but they are still living there, high
8 tension wires or there is a sinkhole there or
9 whatever deemed the property not good for
10 residential living, like our homes, it's along the
11 similar lines, if they decide to put a hotel there
12 someday.
13 And another thing is, as many
14 people stated here, Sullivan Trail, it's basically
15 a two-lane road. It's a very small road. School
16 buses look oversized when they are on it. Now, if
17 this property gets developed, say, in five, ten
18 years, whatever comes up in the future, I think
19 everybody in this room would be safe in assuming
20 there will be access to property on Sullivan Trail.
21 My question, would there be also something off
22 Interstate 380 or is Sullivan Trail going to be the
23 main artery into it? Sullivan Trail can't handle
24 some of the traffic we have now, especially on
25 weekends and race weekends. We know how busy it
45
1 gets with tourists and things coming into the area.
2 MR. THOMAS CAMPSON: Especially
3 during tourist season.
4 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: The whole
5 summer season.
6 MR. TOM SCRIVANI: Holiday
7 weekends with the shoppers.
8 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: Can I
9 address the board just one last time, a closing
10 argument, I guess. Like I said, I've lived on
11 Sullivan Trail for the past 20 years. And I don't
12 know if there has been any research done with
13 PennDOT itself, but when you're coming from Long
14 Pond Road, making that -- from here you're crossing
15 over Long Pond Road and you're continuing on
16 Sullivan, the development in question that we are
17 talking about is 8/10ths of a mile down the road.
18 It's exactly 8/10ths of a mile. When you're coming
19 up past where the quad trails are, you're coming up
20 an incline in the road. You have a reduced speed
21 limit sign.
22 At that incline you're now
23 coming into a very sharp, sharp bend. The bend is
24 so sharp that the gentleman on the corner sold his
25 house just recently. He has huge boulders on his
46
1 lawn to prevent people from going off the road,
2 which I have webcammed about a dozen or more of
3 people who have gone off that road on that curve.
4 And my house became a haven for a rescue station
5 until the police or the ambulance arrived, where
6 cars have flipped, cars have gone up on this man's
7 front lawn where he has a septic mound, that the
8 man literally sold his home and has huge boulders
9 all on the perimeters of his property line to keep
10 the traffic from going onto his lawn or
11 hydroplaning into his home.
12 My husband used to have a dump
13 truck. A car on an icy night hydroplaned and took
14 my husband's whole dump truck at a cost of $20,000.
15 This is how bad this road is. And I think maybe
16 the board might want to consider contacting PennDOT
17 as to the traffic, you know, the speed limit on the
18 road, the obstructions on the curves that are on
19 this road, the hills that are on this road. It's a
20 very dangerous -- if I had to redo my house again,
21 I wouldn't have bought my house on Sullivan Trail.
22 And thank God my children used to get picked up in
23 my driveway by the school bus.
24 MR. ARMSTRONG: This is probably
25 not really relevant to this public hearing, but
47
1 just so you're aware, when there is and if there is
2 ever a land development plan, whether it's
3 residential or commercial or whatever it is, there
4 are requirements under the subdivision and land
5 development ordinance of the township that would
6 require certain public improvements, including
7 improvements to the frontage of that road on that
8 neighboring property. That's if and when there
9 ever is a land development application before the
10 township, but that's not what we are here for
11 tonight.
12 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: I think
13 it's something that should be looked at for the
14 amount of accidents that have occurred on that
15 road, if the intent is to make it commercial, with
16 any kind of vehicle being able to come in and out
17 on that road.
18 MR. KERRICK: We have two
19 members that are not here tonight. One had a death
20 and the other one is ill. So, I think that they
21 need to review the comments. I am not prepared to
22 make a decision this evening.
23 MS. XIOMARA DANIELS: My name is
24 Xiomara Daniels. I live on 206 Miller Lane.
25 I am one block from that street that she's talking
48
1 about, is where my kids catch the bus. And we have
2 seen an accidents earlier in that morning that a
3 car had almost ran over one of those children
4 walking to the bus stop. So it is an issue if that
5 road is so busy where they had to put reflectors on
6 that street corner of Dietz Road and Sullivan Trail
7 so they knew that there is an open road there,
8 because of that incident that happened.
9 It was a very bad accident that happened right
10 there at that corner
11 MR. THOMAS CAMPSON: One final
12 comment. Speaking about intersections, if you're
13 not familiar with it, Long Pond Road and Sullivan
14 Trail, the school buses come out of the rear
15 entrance exit of the high school. You know what
16 kind of bus traffic is there at 2:30, quarter to 3
17 in afternoon? It's amazing. Again, I'm opposed to
18 it. Thank you.
19 MR. LAMBERTON: That's why the
20 four-way stop sign was put in.
21 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: Nobody
22 adheres to it.
23 MS. XIOMARA DANIELS: And that
24 four-way stop sign, I've been right at that stop
25 sign and people will just drive right by. And I
49
1 was standing at the stop sign. They don't stop.
2 MR. THOMAS CAMPSON: That's
3 right.
4 MR. LAMBERTON: Report it to the
5 police when you have a problem like that.
6 MS. XIOMARA DANIELS: I have
7 seen it plenty of times at 3, 4:00 in the morning
8 when I running for the bus.
9 MR. ARMSTRONG: Again, I think
10 we are getting a little off target here. Chairman
11 Kerrick has indicated that he may not be in a
12 position to act on this this evening.
13 MR. KERRICK: How does the rest
14 of the board feel?
15 MR. LAMBERTON: Okay.
16 MR. ARMSTRONG: Having said
17 that, is there any other public comment at this
18 time for the public hearing this evening?
19 MR. MARC WOLFE: Only that I
20 would like to make a few closing comments.
21 Members of the board, I just ask
22 you to take into consideration what is the best use
23 for this particular property. I understand these
24 individuals have concerns about the traffic on
25 Sullivan Trail. All that can be addressed if and
50
1 when this property is ever developed. As you know,
2 if it's ever developed, there will be traffic
3 studies. And as the solicitor noted, traffic
4 studies can lead to public improvements of the road
5 to mediate traffic from the project, but all that
6 is secondary to land development.
7 The primary issue is what is the
8 best use permitted for this piece of property.
9 And for the reasons we put in the petition, for the
10 reasons Mr. Cahill put in his testimony in October,
11 we submit to you that this land is best used as a
12 -- best put in the commercial zone and not in the
13 RR Zone. There are a limited area of Sullivan
14 Trail that's affected here, a limited number of
15 homes. Any interior use of the Emerald Lakes
16 property, be it the satellite project or Emerald
17 Lakes proper is controlled by the development. It
18 would not be affected by the use that would be put
19 on this property.
20 And we respectfully request the
21 board to rezone the land to commercial. We think
22 it's the best use for the property. In the long
23 term it will be best for the township.
24 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: All I ask
25 and I plead to this board to take into
51
1 consideration how the economy has affected everyone
2 of us as home buyers, the ramifications of what
3 this plan could do to the values of our home, the
4 safety of our children and protection of all of us,
5 and what is in our best interest to go to resell
6 our homes. I make this plea to the board, that
7 they would take this under advisement and
8 consideration.
9 MR. ARMSTRONG: Okay. Is there
10 any other public comments? Okay. At this time,
11 we can -- unless there are any comments from the
12 board at this time?
13 MR. KERRICK: No.
14 MR. ARMSTRONG: We'll close the
15 hearing. The hearing is closed. I think it's my
16 understanding from the board this evening that they
17 are not going to take action on the ordinance this
18 overing. In the event that there is a significant
19 revision or change in the land to be rezoned,
20 another public hearing will be advertised and held
21 before the township. Or in the event that the
22 ordinance stays the same and they want to talk
23 about it again next month for possible action, that
24 can be done as well.
25 So, for everyone in the audience
52
1 here this evening, I think -- I'm assuming the
2 other two board members may be here next month or
3 should be here.
4 MR. KERRICK: They will be.
5 MR. ARMSTRONG: So this will
6 probably come up again at next month's meeting.
7 They meet on the first and second Monday. The
8 first Monday is a work session. They won't take
9 action at a work session. The second Monday is at
10 7:00, like this evening, the 13th of April. Like I
11 said, they will probably discuss it again at that
12 meeting. You're more than welcome. These meetings
13 are always public and open to the public. And I
14 think we can leave it at that.
15 MR. THOMAS CAMPSON: So
16 basically what you're saying is that April 13th is
17 when they are going to decide?
18 MR. ARMSTRONG: They could or
19 they couldn't.
20 MR. THOMAS CAMPSON: There could
21 be more discussion about it.
22 MR. ARMSTRONG: Right. Two of
23 the board members aren't here this evening.
24 I don't know if they all anticipated such a --
25 MR. KERRICK: We didn't
53
1 anticipate that. Some unexpected things happened.
2 We also have a work session that it could be
3 discussed at, the 6th, but that is in the morning
4 because the school students from fourth grade
5 attend our meeting for government day. So, we have
6 a meeting so they can attend. I mean, it could
7 come up there. You are welcome to come to that as
8 well. We can't vote at a work session. It would
9 have to be a public meeting. And I can't say we'll
10 take action on the 13th, but I feel the other two
11 supervisors need to hear the comments and weigh in
12 on the situation.
13 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: Can we
14 assume on the 13th if we all showed up, it would be
15 open to the public again?
16 MR. KERRICK: It's always open
17 to the public. We welcome you any time.
18 MS. XIOMARA DANIELS: The
19 meeting that you're having on the 6th, at what time
20 is that meeting?
21 MR. KERRICK: 10:30 in the
22 morning. We can't make a decision. We just talk
23 about different things that will be on the agenda
24 on the 13th.
25 MS. PICKARD: We have kids here.
54
1 MS. XIOMARA DANIELS: The reason
2 why I'm asking is because my husband is unable to
3 attend because he works nights, I work days. Okay?
4 That's why I'm asking. So maybe he can get his
5 input on what is going on on that date, and then
6 I'll just follow up on the 13th.
7 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: Could we be
8 notified, like I was notified of this meeting.
9 MS. PICKARD: Not again, no, not
10 unless we changed the ordinance and had another
11 hearing.
12 MR. ARMSTRONG: You can always
13 come to the township and ask -- I mean, you can get
14 an agenda.
15 MR. KERRICK: You can get an
16 agenda. You could call.
17 MS. PICKARD: But that Friday or
18 the Monday morning, if you want to call and check
19 with the girls, they can fax you a copy of the
20 agenda.
21 MS. XIOMARA DANIELS: And the
22 evening meeting on the 13th will still be at the
23 same time, 7 p.m.?
24 MS. PICKARD: Yes.
25 MR. KERRICK: Yes.
55
1 MS. XIOMARA DANIELS: Okay.
2 Thank you.
3 MR. ARMSTRONG: Every second
4 Monday of the month.
5 MR. THOMAS CAMPSON: And I spoke
6 to the zoning officer. All you have to do is call
7 her and request any information with regards to
8 this and they will send it to you. That's how I
9 got it myself.
10 MR. ARMSTRONG: Okay. The
11 public hearing is closed. We can move on in the
12 agenda.
13 The other two things under my
14 report, I actually do not have anything to report
15 on. The Lake Naomi pedestrian trail agreement and
16 the Minsi Trail Council/Stillwater Lake dam project
17 agreement, I had forwarded those to both Lake Naomi
18 and Minsi Trail Council Boy Scouts. I haven't
19 heard back from the Boy Scouts Council. I did
20 receive feedback at your last week's work session
21 from Lake Naomi. We are in the process of
22 finalizing that agreement. There are some issues
23 with respect to the bidding packet I need to go
24 through with Lake Naomi, but we don't have to go
25 through that this evening. That's all I have under
56
1 my report.
2 MR. KERRICK: Thank you.
3 Next item on our agenda is new business. Consider
4 adopting Ordinance 478, which is the Pocono Manor
5 zoning map. At this time, motion to table?
6 MR. LAMBERTON: So moved.
7 MS. PICKARD: Second.
8 MR. KERRICK: Motion and second.
9 Any questions or comments from the board?
10 Questions or comments from the public?
11 Call the vote. Mr. Lamberton?
12 MR. LAMBERTON: I approve.
13 MR. KERRICK: Heidi?
14 MS. PICKARD: I vote in favor.
15 MR. KERRICK: And I vote in
16 favor. Motion carried.
17 Next item on our agenda, appoint
18 planning commission member.
19 MS. PICKARD: I make a motion
20 that we approve Patricia Rinehimer on the planning
21 commission.
22 MR. LAMBERTON: Second the
23 motion.
24 MR. KERRICK: Motion and second
25 to appoint Patricia Rinehimer. Any questions or
57
1 comments from the board on the motion? Questions
2 or comments from the public on the motion?
3 Call the vote. Mr. Lamberton?
4 MR. LAMBERTON: I vote in favor.
5 MR. KERRICK: Heidi?
6 MS. PICKARD: I vote in favor.
7 MR. KERRICK: And I vote in
8 favor. Motion carried.
9 Next item on our agenda,
10 consider accepting HVAC controls upgrade bid. We
11 discussed that at our work session. My
12 recommendation would be to motion to reject all
13 bids. What is the board's pleasure?
14 MR. LAMBERTON: So moved.
15 MR. KERRICK: We have a motion.
16 Do we have a second?
17 MS. PICKARD: Second.
18 MR. KERRICK: Motion and second.
19 Questions or comments? Questions or comments from
20 the public on the motion?
21 Call the vote. Mr. Lamberton?
22 MR. LAMBERTON: I vote in favor.
23 MR. KERRICK: Do you have a
24 question?
25 MS. PICKARD: I vote in favor.
58
1 MR. KERRICK: Did you have a
2 question?
3 MS. PICKARD: No.
4 MR. KERRICK: You kind of
5 stopped me.
6 MS. PICKARD: I was beginning to
7 make a comment.
8 MR. KERRICK: And I vote in
9 favor.
10 MS. PICKARD: I wanted to say I
11 did speak with the engineer who had spec'd out the
12 bids, and he's been working on them. He may change
13 the specs slightly and readvertise that at some
14 point.
15 MR. KERRICK: I think that would
16 be --
17 MR. LAMBERTON: It should be
18 noted the bids are quite high.
19 MR. KERRICK: And a huge spread.
20 MS. PICKARD: And a huge spread.
21 MR. LAMBERTON: And a huge
22 spread, yes.
23 MR. KERRICK: Mr. Hannig, you're
24 up, Keswick Pointe.
25 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: I brought a
59
1 visual. If the board has time, we do have a
2 pictorial tour of Keswick in progress.
3 MR. ARMSTRONG: Mr. Hannig,
4 could you turn it to so the public can see it?
5 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: Oh, I'm
6 sorry. It's off of Route 115, plans of which have
7 been approved are sitting in that cart. The items
8 for tonight, we had a couple of issues, one I think
9 there was some discussion. We had provided to the
10 township the following information regarding, and I
11 think you reviewed it and accepted, the changes to
12 our entranceway, and I guess there was a question.
13 And I have some attachments here. This is not
14 something that you haven't seen before.
15 The second page was the
16 submission that was required by the engineer.
17 The township requested that we show a
18 semiconfiguration template coming in the
19 entranceway.
20 MR. ARMSTRONG: Can we keep it
21 down. The stenographer --
22 A VOICE: I'm sorry.
23 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: The request
24 was that we show a template illustrating that a
25 tractor-trailer could enter the project and make
60
1 entrance to the sewage treatment plant for the
2 purpose of removing sludge. The upper one here
3 shows it coming in and the lower one shows it
4 leaving the project.
5 I guess there were some concerns
6 on review that the tractor-trailer has to back into
7 the treatment plant because there is inadequate
8 area within the compound, I guess, to negotiate
9 turning the truck around, and there is not a loop
10 provided internally. So, we developed Page 3,
11 which is a template showing that the truck would
12 come past the entrance to the treatment plant, and
13 then it would back itself into the treatment plant.
14 Now, I don't know how many times
15 a year that this particular phenomena occurs. It's
16 going to change with the use of sewage, obviously.
17 But do you know how many times that happens off the
18 top of your head? Once a month or once a quarter?
19 MR. KERRICK: Several times a
20 quarter, and it's several times during that day.
21 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: So, he's
22 doing it over --
23 MR. KERRICK: When they remove
24 it, they remove about 50,000 gallons.
25 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: Okay.
61
1 I just was curious as to that. I guess the
2 question is -- I made a little overlay. The
3 problem is to avoid having them back -- when he
4 backs, you can see the cab winds up going into the
5 opposing traffic lane while he's backing in for a
6 momentary situation. Now, the visibility of the
7 driver is pretty good. I mean, you can see
8 hundreds of feet down the road. It's not exactly a
9 thoroughfare. It's in a residential development.
10 I don't think it's a lot of times. The thing that
11 was recommended by the engineer was that we shave
12 off the curvature of the eastern side of the road
13 here, which would be basically this side here. And
14 we opened it this side to get him in and now we are
15 opening this side. I'll show you what that does.
16 I know you take great pride in
17 your sewage treatment plant. But since I'm doing a
18 development where the folks are going to be welcome
19 home every night and drive by it, as I promised
20 you, we are going to landscape the dickens out of
21 the thing. And what we are trying to provide --
22 get this lined up correctly -- is something like
23 so. And the reason for that is -- can you see
24 this?
25 MR. KERRICK: Yes.
62
1 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: The reason
2 is, if we come in at an angle, it gives me an
3 opportunity, as people go by coming into the
4 development, we can landscape the front of the
5 fencing on both sides. And by creating an angle of
6 the driveway, you really are not looking straight
7 in at the treatment plant because we break the line
8 of view. For most people, they would be looking
9 into the landscaping as they went by.
10 Now, it's a very nice looking
11 plant. We are still anxious to do some things to
12 make it look even better. If we do what your
13 engineer is requesting, that's to open up the road
14 this way, to avoid that momentary situation that
15 occurs maybe a couple times a quarter, we then
16 create a situation like this whereby we already
17 have this angle to come in straight for trucks.
18 And now if we open this, this way, now we can
19 landscape both sides, but you're looking straight
20 into the facility. We are trying to avoid that,
21 quite frankly.
22 That's the only input I have for
23 you. We can do that, but I think it makes for a
24 better project to do it this way. And for the few
25 times that that truck comes in -- and I'm not sure,
63
1 from what I hear, that it's a tractor-trailer every
2 single time, sometimes it's not, and they just
3 drive right in, but I don't know. I haven't had
4 any experience with that.
5 We've gone to great lengths, as
6 you know, to provide a parking area for the
7 residents to park when they pick up their kids and
8 to get their mail, so they don't have to play tag
9 in the street with the school buses and traffic.
10 So this is one of several things we'd like you to
11 give us a little indulgence so we can help make the
12 project as attractive as it can be.
13 MR. ARMSTRONG: Did you present
14 this to the township engineer, Bob McHale?
15 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: I presented
16 it through my engineer, who, I don't know
17 articulated quite in length as I just did, you
18 know. I had seen Bob. I thought perhaps he would
19 be here tonight and I could explain it to him.
20 MS. PICKARD: Bob's major
21 concern was that the truck was going to be in the
22 opposing lane of traffic.
23 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: Yes, but
24 it's not a thoroughfare. And you can see if he
25 pulls out here, this person has a clear view from
64
1 almost 800 feet away. I mean, trucks in the
2 intersections make wide turns in opposing traffic.
3 It's a common thing that occurs. One almost
4 anticipates it, when you see a truck starting to
5 cross over to back into something. Again it's not
6 -- every resident here could say to me would you
7 make these roads wider because if I move in or move
8 out, the moving van can't get in my driveway. We
9 can go on and on with similar kinds of requests,
10 you know, and it's an occasional use. And I think
11 that in light of the aesthetics, that I think, you
12 know, I just wanted to say why we hadn't designed
13 it that way to begin with, nor do we anticipate
14 that the tractor-trailers move in.
15 There is room here. It looks
16 like there is a small part of your paving that's
17 not linked here. It almost looks like you can
18 almost drive right around the complex except for
19 one small length of grass.
20 MR. KERRICK: I'm not so sure
21 that the trailer would make it around that.
22 Would it be beneficial if the gate was moved at all
23 on the -- as far as the driveway, the existing
24 driveway into the sewer plant?
25 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: If he has
65
1 to -- you know, if he has to drive in or back in,
2 no matter how he does it backing in, unless we cut
3 this thing really wide in both directions, you
4 can't go and stay in the same lane and back in here
5 because it would have to splay open, you know,
6 tremendously, to accomplish that. More like you
7 see here where the radiuses are open on both sides
8 to allow him to do that. Moving the gate, we just
9 have to move this -- move with it. It wouldn't
10 really change anything. That's the reason we
11 demonstrated more like that to do it, you know.
12 Now, we can look and maybe we
13 can shave a tad off of here, but with the few times
14 they have to -- this is maybe exaggerated with what
15 was really designed here. I think that's probably
16 a little more so. It's not quite as bad, but I
17 wanted to illustrate how we are trying to create a
18 buffer, you know, for the visual impact of the
19 treatment plant.
20 MR. KERRICK: Would you be
21 willing to entertain extending the roadway for us
22 on our property to make that happen and keep your
23 entrance as you proposed -- inside our compound?
24 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: In here?
25 MR. KERRICK: Yes. I'm not sure
66
1 it can be done, but if we can --
2 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: If you
3 showed me an area inside your compound where they
4 can pull in straight and pull over into like a
5 hammerhead and back up, I'd be delighted to do
6 that.
7 MR. KERRICK: I'm only one
8 member, but it might be beneficial for the
9 residents in that area.
10 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: Believe me,
11 if it weren't for your treatment plant, this
12 weren't possible. So I respect what it brings to
13 the table, but at the same time I think you can
14 understand my wanting to beautify it right at the
15 entranceway. You know, coming home every day
16 people know it's there. It's one of the neatest
17 ones I have ever seen. I'm not telling you that
18 because it's yours. It's maintained very well.
19 And, certainly, you know, it's something that in
20 and of itself doesn't create a problem other than
21 what people see and have to always explain to their
22 visiting friends and relatives. So, I think if we
23 made it look even more attractive and say, what's
24 in there? That's a treatment plant. It has all
25 these things out front in the way of evergreens and
67
1 things to make it look even more attractive, you
2 know. I haven't figured out what to do -- I don't
3 understand why the dumpster is outside the gate. I
4 haven't figured that out yet, but we'll sneak up on
5 that one.
6 MR. KERRICK: That will be
7 moved.
8 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: If we
9 buffer it with trees, we may be able to do it where
10 it's tucked away and you don't see it.
11 MR. KERRICK: You have to
12 remember it existed for ten years without a
13 neighbor and that's why it's outside the compound.
14 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: But if you
15 look where the gate is relative to this, it's gone
16 by this angle and the dumpster is like here. So
17 there might be the same situation here. If it's in
18 here, there might be a buffering where it's not a
19 problem. I understand when they come into your
20 dumpster, there is nobody there to open the gate
21 for them.
22 MR. KERRICK: And if they had to
23 open the gate with a key, they would charge us
24 more, so we put it outside.
25 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: If you've
68
1 gotta get out of the truck it's extra.
2 MR. KERRICK: Correct.
3 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: I have a
4 few locations of my own. I'd be happy to entertain
5 that. I understand the problem. I think it's not,
6 you know, an everyday occurrence, but if we add
7 these close to the plant, it may be more frequent
8 obviously because we'll be increasing the flows.
9 We want to be responsible. We know what we are
10 doing, but if there is a better way to skin that
11 cat, so to speak, we will. It's not the expense as
12 much as it is the practicality of trying to kind of
13 hide that.
14 MR. KERRICK: Okay.
15 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: So, it's
16 like cutting across your property when the driveway
17 is mostly straight in. It adds more interest to
18 it. Again, a tractor-trailer does create some
19 issues, but it looks like there may be some area in
20 here to do what you're talking about, a hammerhead.
21 MR. KERRICK: I'm confident.
22 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: That's
23 certainly something we can entertain doing. We
24 have a lot of material right on site too. It
25 doesn't take a whole lot to accomplish that. I
69
1 knew kind of what's there. It looks like just a
2 little bit more might make it work.
3 MR. KERRICK: I'm pretty sure it
4 will.
5 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: Again, the
6 expense of moving the fence and all that I don't
7 think is even needed. So that was the issue on
8 that. Did I kind of cover that one?
9 The next issue for me, there was
10 some conversation relative to the request for a
11 hearing or a meeting with PPL regarding their
12 desire and their engineering. Now, initially, we
13 had no input from them other than we were going to
14 come in here with secondary power and disburse it
15 accordingly. What changed from the plan, as Bob
16 has indicated to you, that's what's illustrated on
17 the original plan. We went to PPL and of course
18 when we said to them that things have changed -- we
19 are no longer doing onsite wells, we have a central
20 well down here, we're going to put booster stations
21 up here for fire flow, and run central water
22 throughout the entire community, and here's my
23 power requirements for here, and there are a couple
24 of different ones here for the booster pump and the
25 normal pump, you know, and down here the pump
70
1 that's in the well, all of which would operate much
2 better on 3-phase power.
3 And the other thing was when we
4 looked at the townhouse portion of the project, the
5 next concern was, how can we route several
6 different loops of the phases so if one phase drops
7 out, we can reroute some of the power to get
8 citizens back into power quickly until we remedy
9 the problem? Their approach was to come in where
10 they already had some 3-phase power and just
11 continue that down to this point here and down to
12 where the power -- if you recall, years ago, there
13 was power we found -- as a matter of fact the
14 transformer down here, they ran power right through
15 the woods where the old cabin was. That's how they
16 got their power. And then some of the power came
17 up from behind what is currently the frontier
18 office, but it came in here and came over to where
19 the old lift station was that took the sewer that
20 you had and pumped it from Old Farms, it came down
21 through here and was pumped back up into the plant
22 part of it, I guess, because it was separated. I
23 think there was only just the liquid portion of it,
24 as I recall.
25 MR. KERRICK: Correct.
71
1 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: So that's
2 how they were feeding power into this before.
3 So what's required is a few new poles here that
4 have to be built. And this would have to be
5 rebuilt through here. I think this was secondary
6 power, so they will even be higher. And the
7 right-of-ways already exist.
8 I've spoken to a few of the
9 families who called me months ago and explained to
10 them what was going on. Most of these are, you
11 know, cabins that have been around for a number of
12 years. And the people haven't seen anybody trim a
13 tree in a long time. So once you see somebody put
14 ribbons around things, you get pretty nervous, but
15 it will actually improve the opportunity for people
16 in the whole area here to have available 3-phase
17 power, in case a phase drops out, to reroute loops,
18 because they will also come in here, is how they
19 are going to feed the first part of the development
20 and bring it down this way to down this way to our
21 well station.
22 So there will be some 3-phase
23 coming in this way. And then from there they will
24 loop this and come down here. We'll have this go
25 up this way and feed the pumps this way. And those
72
1 phases will create secondary loops in different
2 ways so they can configure and spread the power out
3 as evenly as possible. So this route was a PPL
4 solution to how to best serve the project. And
5 they said the 3-phase already existed up here, and
6 it was a better way to distribute it. And a lot of
7 this hadn't been upgraded for years and years
8 anyway. So that was their plan of how to serve
9 best the community and provide the power we need
10 for the water station.
11 So those were issues we didn't
12 have on the front end, and the only way we can get
13 3-phase power to service all these pumps that we
14 have. So, they are more than willing to come and
15 have a meeting where they will tell you exactly
16 what I just said. They have spoken to a number of
17 people. I don't know whether you have anybody in
18 particular who has been a, you know, complainant or
19 doesn't understand what's being done.
20 MR. KERRICK: There was several
21 residences on that.
22 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: On Spruce?
23 MR. KERRICK: Spruce.
24 MS. PICKARD: On the lower end.
25 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: Down here?
73
1 MR. KERRICK: They saw the
2 ribbons.
3 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: One went up
4 and looked at the ribbons. That was some time ago.
5 I think the conversation then was that they thought
6 if they could spare one tree, because their tree
7 was clearly in the right-of-way. It wasn't, you
8 know, as though they had stated. If it were on the
9 edge of the right-of-way, I think PPL could have
10 made it by. But it was clearly between the road
11 and it was like centered between the right-of-way
12 and the road line, and that's where the tree was.
13 It was clearly there. And it was only like one or
14 two trees that have fallen victim to this, but they
15 are clearly in the wrong spot. And the power, as
16 you know, they have to trim the lines. So, it also
17 becomes a hazard for anybody that's working on the
18 lines or the poles.
19 But I thought that they talked
20 to PPL personally. And then I spoke to them, and I
21 thought that they were pretty well content with
22 whatever we can save there, we will. If it's in
23 the right-of-way, I said well, we didn't think it
24 was, but we'll have them come up and reassure you
25 that it is or it isn't, and I believe they did
74
1 that.
2 MR. KERRICK: I wasn't aware of
3 that. We were there last summer with PPL.
4 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: It was
5 right after.
6 MR. KERRICK: At the time, the
7 gentleman I spoke to, that was your secondary, that
8 was your backup power, the way he explained it to
9 me, and you were still going into the main
10 entrance, but that was the middle of the summer,
11 late summer.
12 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: Well, I
13 don't know. When I spoke to him, this was going to
14 be the main -- it's not the one and only. This is
15 3-phase coming in, this is 3-phase coming in, and
16 then they are going to split it up in different
17 ways. This is the one that's coming in. I even
18 asked them, I said, you want to come in this way?
19 They said, no, we want to come in this way because
20 then we can't split it differently. And they are
21 going to go from here up to here to service the
22 pumps that we needed for fire flow.
23 But there was only one person
24 that I questioned, that I really got in-depth with.
25 I returned two or three phone calls. I spoke to a
75
1 husband and wife at different occasions. So, I
2 think they weren't thrilled, but they were happy
3 that I got back to them and explained what was
4 happening. I talked to PPL and I called them back
5 again. And PPL said the way they were portraying
6 it wasn't quite the reality of what was staked out
7 there. And I said, well, explain it to me so I can
8 better explain it to them, and they did.
9 The issue was the stake here was
10 the outside right-of-way. This was the road.
11 The tree was between them. And they said this tree
12 unfortunately has got to go. They can trim it if
13 it was close. They can trim off the side of it,
14 but it wasn't -- it was clearly over where it was
15 in the impact area.
16 MS. PICKARD: I think on
17 Mr. McHale's e-mail, I think that you were copied
18 on, the one from 1/23 and the one that was sent
19 today, indicated we may need to update the utility
20 plan.
21 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: Well,
22 that's where we are at. We are at the point now
23 just updating that. PPL has engineered this now,
24 and they are ready to start that part of the
25 construction. And I have asked them -- I said
76
1 before we do that, I need to have -- I need it
2 myself for our people who work in the field, you
3 know. We haven't got from them their final signoff
4 plan.
5 Once I have that, then Casey
6 will put it on, two new sheets or whatever it is,
7 or three, and then swap it out of the plans,
8 because they will be updated. There are some
9 routing changes in there because of the way it was
10 done before. It was kind of like coming in and
11 branching off. And that wasn't totally signed off
12 by PPL because they wouldn't engineer it until we
13 came in and really had the project to the point
14 where they knew they could do it. So now that they
15 have that, all the hardware, they have done that.
16 So that will be the next thing, we'll come back in
17 with those plans too.
18 MS. PICKARD: There is another
19 commercial project that's coming down too.
20 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: You mean
21 along the frontage there?
22 MS. PICKARD: Yes.
23 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: Yes, I
24 know. They are planning something in here on these
25 properties, because I talked to their engineers on
77
1 that. Again, the 3-phase is already here. That
2 might do that, but I'm sure they would rather
3 upgrade it if it's going to have these kinds of
4 demands on it. They told me it's been a long time.
5 They don't even put 3-phase on poles that height
6 anymore. They make them a little higher so you get
7 more separation, it's easier on the wires.
8 So that was the update on those
9 two things. And I understand that -- Maureen made
10 it sound like I was going to need 12 people to help
11 me carry that to the car, but she's --
12 MR. KERRICK: She volunteered me
13 to help you carry those to the car.
14 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: My question
15 on that, I may have to get back to you,
16 Mr. Armstrong, to ask to have new cover sheets.
17 I'm not sure, but some of the covenants and things
18 I did a long time ago, I think my guess is the
19 front page and the acknowledgement pages are going
20 to have to be refreshed because they may be out of
21 date from the date of the plans. And since I don't
22 have, like I said, a .pdf, I don't have the regular
23 file to change that on the final version of the
24 covenants, I don't believe I do, it might be the
25 developer agreement, but I'll look at that and I'll
78
1 give you a call.
2 MR. ARMSTRONG: Okay. Those are
3 signed?
4 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: Yes, they
5 are. I guess the question is, what is required by
6 the township as far as recordation? Most townships
7 usually don't record every single sheet. They
8 usually record like the first three or four sheets
9 showing all the sections. They don't get into all
10 the details of what the sewer, you know, tie-ins
11 look like, and curb cuts and designs.
12 MR. ARMSTRONG: Yes. I know the
13 developer agreement, that's going to have to be
14 recorded.
15 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: Yes, I have
16 all of that.
17 MR. ARMSTRONG: That should set
18 forth all of the sheets of the plan.
19 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: It does.
20 It will be referenced on record as to how many
21 sheets are in the plan, just in case.
22 MR. ARMSTRONG: How many sheets
23 are there?
24 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: Like 81 or
25 82 sheets. The courthouse may go bonkers.
79
1 MR. ARMSTRONG: I obviously
2 don't know exactly what's on all those sheets.
3 We typically recommend that, you know, the entire
4 plans be recorded. I will check with Bob tomorrow
5 and see what he has done in the past in this
6 township, but the development agreement, that
7 should have a pretty good description of all the
8 sheets.
9 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: It does.
10 It has it very well outlined. I don't believe --
11 that may be stale dated as well. I don't know what
12 the recorder's office is going to require. I know
13 the plans have to be on record within 90 days of
14 the signature. But all the collateral documents,
15 developer agreement, protective covenants, I think
16 I may have some other things that your office could
17 send me that I'm waiting to put on record. But
18 whatever they are, I have to call the recorder's
19 office to see. They may only care about the plans
20 and not the collaterals. I didn't ask the
21 question.
22 MR. ARMSTRONG: Okay.
23 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: I don't
24 want to bore you if you have other things to do,
25 but I do have about 30 slides that I can show you,
80
1 if you have other business --
2 MR. KERRICK: We have one more
3 item.
4 MS. PICKARD: One and a half.
5 MR. KERRICK: I'm sorry, one and
6 a half items. And then we'll open it up to the
7 public, and then we'll get to the slides?
8 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: Very good.
9 MR. KERRICK: Next item on or
10 agenda is Resolution No. 2009-009. It's a policy
11 for capping and sealing/reserving sewer capacity.
12 Basically, it's updating our policy so if there is
13 a structure that was damaged by a fire or natural
14 disaster, so that you can cap the sewer and reserve
15 capacity.
16 What's the board's pleasure?
17 MS. PICKARD: I make a motion we
18 approve Resolution No. 2009-009.
19 MR. LAMBERTON: Second the
20 motion.
21 MR. KERRICK: Motion and second
22 on the floor. Questions or comments from the
23 board? Questions or comments from the public on
24 the motion?
25 Call the vote. Mr. Lamberton?
81
1 MR. LAMBERTON: I vote in favor.
2 MR. KERRICK: Heidi?
3 MS. PICKARD: I vote in favor.
4 MR. KERRICK: I vote in favor.
5 Motion carried.
6 Do you have something?
7 MS. PICKARD: I have one more,
8 Resolution 2009-010, to amend the fee resolution
9 pertaining to the previous resolution.
10 A VOICE: I'm sorry. Can you
11 speak up?
12 A VOICE: We cannot hear you.
13 MS. PICKARD: We are going to
14 amend the fee resolution pertaining to the last
15 resolution we just made. So, it would set a
16 capping and sealing inspection fee of $50, and to
17 state that the reserve capacity fee would be 60
18 percent of the current per EDU charge after
19 approved cap and seal inspection.
20 MR. LAMBERTON: Second the
21 motion.
22 MR. KERRICK: Motion and second.
23 Questions or comments from the board? Questions or
24 comments from the public on the motion?
25 Call the vote. Mr. Lamberton?
82
1 MR. LAMBERTON: I vote in favor.
2 MR. KERRICK: Heidi?
3 MS. PICKARD: I vote in favor.
4 MR. KERRICK: I vote the favor.
5 Motion carried. Mr. Lamberton, Heidi, do you have
6 anything?
7 Open to the public for public
8 comment. Yes, sir?
9 MR. JOSEPH OLALL: I have a
10 question about the PPL plan on this here. Are they
11 putting up new towers, is that what it is, to run
12 the wires?
13 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: No, just
14 poles. Secondary power is what is domestic use
15 power that comes to most homes. It creeps off the
16 poles.
17 MR. JOSEPH OLALL: Any reason
18 you're not burying the cables instead of putting
19 them on poles?
20 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: No. We are
21 burying them throughout the entire development.
22 We are talking around the perimeter to gain access
23 to the development.
24 MR. KERRICK: There is existing
25 poles there now. They just need to be upgraded.
83
1 It hasn't been trimmed in many, many years. They
2 are just putting new poles in to supply that. But
3 once it gets to his development, it's my
4 understanding it will be underground in the new
5 development.
6 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: Once it
7 crosses the line -- as a matter of fact, at the end
8 of this neighborhood here, when it gets to the last
9 pole, it will go down what is called a riser, metal
10 containers or conduits you see going down the pole,
11 it will go down that. Everything in the entire
12 development, including the townhouses, will be all
13 in the ground. Everything is buried, central
14 sewer, central water.
15 MR. JOSEPH OLALL: You're saying
16 we are upgrading some of the poles, right?
17 MR. KERRICK: Yes.
18 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: Yes,
19 because it's going to 3-phase power, which is a
20 little heavier power that's used for more
21 commercial use.
22 MR. JOSEPH OLALL: I'm familiar.
23 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: Well, I'm
24 saying it because other people are listening. So,
25 I am answering your question and they're
84
1 anticipating. But that enables them to address our
2 3-phase motors that we have to generate water and
3 fire protection.
4 MR. JOSEPH OLALL: If I may, I
5 would just like to put a little word of advice, if
6 you would take this under consideration. Seeing
7 that you know some leeway is being given to PPL,
8 you know, for supplying their power and all that
9 stuff, I believe that I spoke with your zoning
10 officer about, you know, the ability of residents
11 to erect and use their own wind turbines to offset
12 this big huge PPL increase we are getting the first
13 of next year. You guys are in the process of
14 crafting an ordinance that would pretty much limit
15 any wind turbine to a minimum of 2-acre lots. I
16 don't think we are having any kind of 2-acre
17 setbacks for these, so if you would please consider
18 that, you know, in the language of the ordinance,
19 to not be so restrictive for the homeowners, and
20 allow them -- to give them the tools they need to
21 work with wind turbines, so that they can put wind
22 turbines up to offset their PPL increase for next
23 year. I see some frowns over there.
24 MR. KERRICK: No, there is no
25 frowns up here. It's only in draft form at the
85
1 present time. There has been people that have come
2 before us that are concerned they don't want a
3 large wind generator or high tower next to their
4 property on a 1/3-acre lot or a 1/2-acre lot where
5 it can fall on their residence, their car, et
6 cetera, et cetera. So there are both sides of the
7 spectrum, but I don't think we are at that point.
8 MR. JOSEPH OLALL: Okay. It's
9 just something I wanted to kind of just the board
10 to consider.
11 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: It's like
12 cell towers. People don't want a tower. Same with
13 wind turbines.
14 MR. JOSEPH OLALL: It's starting
15 to hit people in their pockets. So if PPL is being
16 given this kind of leeway, please consider some
17 leeway.
18 MR. ARMSTRONG: I don't think
19 PPL is getting any leeway.
20 MR. JOSEPH OLALL: The towers in
21 general, things that make common sense, you know,
22 give leeway.
23 A VOICE: Joe has done this.
24 That's why.
25 MR. JOSEPH OLALL: The reason
86
1 I'm so for this is because I'm in Tunkhannock
2 Township and I've had to actually fight the board
3 to make them understand what this is. I have a
4 70-foot tower on a 1/2 acre lot. And we've had
5 damaging winds around here recently and nothing
6 happens to it. If it's constructed well, you've
7 got no issue. They do work and it's very safe.
8 In fact, you've had WNEP's tower come crashing down
9 in the ice storm. Mine is still up.
10 So, you know, that's all I'm
11 saying, is give consideration in light of PPL being
12 given -- they seem to have a lot of clout. I'm
13 saying also give some power to the homeowners as
14 well. Give them the tools they need to combat, you
15 know, rising utility rates. Don't make it so
16 restrictive for them. Thanks.
17 MR. KERRICK: If I lose power,
18 can I come over?
19 MR. JOSEPH OLALL: That's
20 actually what happens many of the times there is
21 outages.
22 MR. CHARLES HANNIG: If you
23 generate more than you need, you can sell it back
24 to the grid.
25 MR. JOSEPH OLALL: The problem
87
1 is they buy it back at wholesale, so the incentive
2 is not there. To give you an idea, when there is a
3 power outage, I don't know. I've got a $9 utility
4 bill. The highest is 38 bucks. I would love
5 everybody else to do that. But, you know, when the
6 ordinances are put in place to say no, you can't
7 have that, you know, please let's do that.
8 MR. ARMSTRONG: I don't think
9 whatever this township is going to adopt is going
10 say no wind turbines. What it's going to do is
11 restrict it to the point where --
12 MR. JOSEPH OLALL: I don't want
13 it be a glorified form of event, because that's
14 what Tunkhannock did. And we are actually working
15 really hard to get them to undo something they did
16 in five minutes.
17 MR. KERRICK: We've been working
18 on this for quite some time.
19 MR. JOSEPH OLALL: If you can
20 include me on that, you know, someone who is a
21 perfect, physical live example of a work in
22 progress -- I mean, this thing is working, and to
23 see how it is and how it affects things and how it
24 does not affect things. Okay? Please include me
25 on this because I am a wealth of information, and
88
1 it's pertinent to this area.
2 MR. ARMSTRONG: If and when the
3 ordinance is ready for consideration and adoption,
4 it will be advertised.
5 MS. PICKARD: Didn't it go to
6 the planning commission?
7 MR. KERRICK: It didn't go to
8 the planning commission as of yet. Is it the
9 Emerald Lakes' board's position that the board
10 supports this? That's what we were told. I just
11 wanted to know if it's true.
12 MR. JOSEPH OLALL: Correct.
13 MR. KERRICK: Anyone else have a
14 comment or a question?
15 MS. DIANE CALDWELL: Well, I
16 wanted to agree with Mr. Olall, because it is going
17 green, which I know it helps the environment. It's
18 cost effective for the homeowner, maybe not on the
19 initial setup cost, but over the long period of
20 time it is very cost effective. And like Mr. Olall
21 just said, you actually get back money from your
22 utility company if you're using a turbine. So, you
23 know, I have to kind of agree with him to give the
24 option to the homeowner, you know, with conforming
25 with the ordinance of the township, not to look at
89
1 it negatively but to keep an open mind to it, and
2 let it be the option of the homeowner to see if
3 they want to foot the bill to put one in for us to
4 save the environment and also be cost effective
5 with our utility bills, because, as you know,
6 everything is on the rise.
7 MR. LAMBERTON: Safety is our
8 only concern. Safety.
9 MR. KERRICK: Anyone else?
10 Thank you for attending this evening. Meeting is
11 adjourned.
12 (Meeting adjourned at 8:40 p.m.)
13 ---
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7 I hereby certify that the
8 proceedings and evidence are contained fully and
9 accurately in the notes taken by me, to the best of
10 my ability, at the meeting in the above matter; and
11 that the foregoing is a true and correct transcript
12 of the same.
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16 JOSEPHINE HOLLMAN, C.R., N.P.
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