Before
THE TOBYHANNA TOWNSHIP PLANNING COMMISSION
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In Re: Special Meeting
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Tobyhanna Township Government Center Building
State Avenue
Pocono Pines, Pennsylvania 18350
Thursday, February 21, 2008, beginning at 7 p.m.
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PRESENT: JOSEPH MILLER, Vice-Chairperson
ROBERT BAXTER, Board Member
TED VANDERVLIET, Board Member
ANNE LAMBERTON, Board Member
ROBERT McHALE, P.E.,
Township Engineer
PATRICK ARMSTRONG, ESQUIRE, Solicitor
ALSO PRESENT: PHYLLIS HAASE, Zoning Officer
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Panko Reporting
537 Sarah Street, 2nd Floor
Stroudsburg, Pennsylvania 18360
(570) 421-3620
2
1 MR. MILLER: We'll call the
2 special meeting of the Tobyhanna Township Planning
3 Commission to order. Today is Thursday, February
4 21, 2008. Public comment?
5 Announcements: The March 6,
6 2008 planning commission meeting is cancelled.
7 Old business: Blakeslee
8 Pharmacy, Windy Corners Realty.
9 MS. SARAH BUE-MORRIS: Sarah
10 Bue-Morris, Bue-Morris Associates.
11 We basically finalized the
12 stormwater design in order to get the basin to work
13 up to the 100 year storm. The basin has become
14 much larger. We lost six parking spaces along
15 here, but we still do meet the minimum number of
16 parking spaces. If you look on -- sorry, you don't
17 have the prints, but I did bring them.
18 We basically have 62 parking
19 spaces required and we still have 72. So we still
20 have ten more than what is required by the
21 ordinance. We did do a few other minor
22 modifications that weren't requested, but because
23 of the changes we had to make, we felt we needed to
24 do that as well. So there were several notes on
25 sheet C-1 that changed because the work that was
3
1 described in it hadn't changed. That was pretty
2 much it.
3 MR. ARMSTRONG: Why don't we do
4 this. There is a review letter from Bob McHale to
5 the township dated February 16th of 2008. Should
6 we just go through that? Does that make sense?
7 MS. SARAH BUE-MORRIS: You want
8 me to start?
9 MR. ARMSTRONG: Well, the first
10 paragraph is the C of O, certificate of occupancy.
11 It looks like you requested it prior to certain
12 improvements. I don't know what the planning
13 commission's recommendation would be with respect
14 to the August 15th, 2008 date for all those
15 improvements. It seems a little bit lengthy.
16 MS. SARAH BUE-MORRIS: I did
17 that because last year we had that draught and if
18 we go into a draught in the spring, I don't want to
19 have to plant a bunch of -- I mean, he's doing
20 extensive landscaping. I'm more concerned about
21 the landscaping than anything. And if it stops
22 raining early in the spring, I think he's going to
23 want to try to wait until he's getting enough
24 natural rainfall. That's why it would be the
25 August deadline, to kind of see, to give him a
4
1 little bit more time to plant things. But also,
2 remember, he is going to be posting a bond so that
3 if he doesn't do the work in a timely manner, you
4 can always invoke the bond and do it yourself.
5 MR. McHALE: But the township
6 would rather not be the developer.
7 MS. BUE-MORRIS: Right, and I
8 think, you know, Dave has a good enough reputation,
9 and certainly his partner and Blakeslee Windy
10 Corners Realty is also going to be responsible.
11 MR. ARMSTRONG: What do you
12 think of June or July?
13 MR. DAVID MURPHY: Doesn't
14 matter. We can water them. It's irrelevant, June
15 or July. Since I'm personally doing it, that's the
16 time frame. The weather? I'm okay with that.
17 I've hoses that will take care of that. So I'm
18 okay with that.
19 MR. ARMSTRONG: I mean, it's the
20 pleasure of the commission.
21 MR. MILLER: Does the board have
22 any problems?
23 MRS. LAMBERTON: Whatever is
24 standard.
25 MR. McHALE: Maybe we should
5
1 talk through all the other items and then come back
2 to this because timingwise, there may be other
3 items that come up.
4 MR. ARMSTRONG: Just so -- I
5 just want to clarify some things. The certificate
6 of occupancy, I know you are requesting it, but
7 right below it, there is a PennDOT highway
8 occupancy permit issue. You will not get a C of O
9 without an HOP.
10 MS. SARAH BUE-MORRIS: We have
11 another entrance.
12 MR. ARMSTRONG: But that other
13 entrance is not -- it's a private road that's been
14 used for residences. And there is a difference
15 with respect to servicing residences than to
16 commercial property, number one. Number two, its
17 my understanding that that secondary access, Maple
18 Road, is not intended to be the primary access
19 point to the property.
20 MS. SARAH BUE-MORRIS: Not
21 normally, no. But you have to remember that he's
22 been operating at this location for 20 years now.
23 MR. DAVID MURPHY: No, actually
24 about 12, 11.
25 MS. SARAH BUE-MORRIS: Without
6
1 having an occupancy permit.
2 MR. DAVID MURPHY: I actually
3 had one. I actually had it my hands a year ago,
4 and I, for the life of me, cannot find it. But it
5 doesn't matter because this has still changed.
6 MR. ARMSTRONG: You need an HOP
7 for direct access onto 940 or if you're using the
8 private road, because I guarantee you, PennDOT will
9 say that's a different volume and they are going to
10 want to look at it and you're going to need an HOP
11 for that.
12 MR. DAVID MURPHY: Can we
13 skip -- I want the HOP before the C of O. I mean,
14 that's my -- if I get sued -- somebody gets T-boned
15 out there, I'm getting sued. That's why I know I
16 had one before because I was fanatical about it. I
17 cannot take that chance.
18 MR. ARMSTRONG: It's going to be
19 most likely a recommendation -- if there is a
20 recommendation tonight, one of the conditions of
21 that recommendation is that you receive the
22 requisite HOP for access on 940.
23 MR. DAVID MURPHY: I don't know
24 how they handle that, and I'm sorry for
25 interjecting, but the last time, when I dealt with
7
1 one of the guys, they were more okay or there is a
2 safety thing. Once it was in there in the system,
3 one of the guys I talked to was more okay with
4 me -- I was still doing business, because at the
5 time I didn't know about this HOP thing. No one
6 stopped me through the whole gizmo of this even the
7 last time. But I was fanatical about the HOP and
8 I'm fanatical about it now. I don't want to loose
9 my life's savings.
10 MR. ARMSTRONG: Just so we all
11 understand each other that, you know, you may get a
12 conditional approval or a recommendation for
13 approval, conditional upon you getting the HOP.
14 And until you get that HOP, number one, you won't
15 be able to record plans. Number two, you won't be
16 able to get a C of O.
17 MR. DAVID MURPHY: I'm good with
18 the C of O, but what I'm wondering is, do you have
19 to have a special -- when I get the HOP, do we
20 have to go back through this again or could I at
21 least walk in and say, you know, here's the HOP?
22 MR. ARMSTRONG: If we go through
23 tonight, say there is a recommendation, okay,
24 whether it's conditional upon a couple of other
25 things, probably you receiving the requisite HOP
8
1 from PennDOT, say you go before the board in April
2 and the board is okay with it, but if they do make
3 an approval and it's conditional upon you receiving
4 an HOP and a couple other things, the township is
5 not going to sign the plans to be recorded until
6 those conditions are met.
7 MS. SARAH BUE-MORRIS: Is that
8 really true, Bob? Because is that why you're not
9 signing Shikhman's?
10 MR. McHALE: Shikhman is another
11 issue.
12 MR. ARMSTRONG: Let's stay on
13 target. Everyone understand that?
14 MR. DAVID MURPHY: I'm real good
15 with that.
16 MR. ARMSTRONG: Fine. That's
17 perfect.
18 MR. DAVID MURPHY: My only
19 question would be that, let's say the HOP -- I
20 don't know how long it drags out or anything. If
21 anybody here has any idea, I mean, that would be
22 the only time out of losing -- I lose St. Luke's,
23 the area loses. I lose St. Luke's, that building
24 is not opening and this area is losing and the
25 citizens here are losing St. Luke's.
9
1 MR. ARMSTRONG: And no one wants
2 that. The township needs to make sure you get the
3 requisite approvals and permits from PennDOT.
4 MR. DAVID MURPHY: The HOP I
5 want before anyone of you guys want. It's my
6 livelihood. You know, somebody -- there is always
7 a lawyer behind an accident who will look at me.
8 MR. ARMSTRONG: As to the timing
9 of getting your HOP, I personally don't know. It
10 all depends on what they want. I understand that
11 there is a left hand turn analysis --
12 MS. SARAH BUE-MORRIS: There
13 was, and I gave it to them. And it shows that
14 there will be three left turn lanes in the morning
15 during rush hour and three in the evening during
16 rush hour. Therefore, I don't think it's going to
17 be a concern because it's less than one percent of
18 the traffic. It's less than half a percent of the
19 traffic. It's like .06 percent.
20 The only thing we are planning
21 on doing is eliminating this swale right here
22 because this pipe, the existing pipe is not large
23 enough. DOT requires a minimum of a 15 inch pipe
24 and a 12 inch pipe was installed. So we are
25 plugging it. So given the amount of the work, I
10
1 would hope we might be able to get it expedited.
2 MR. DAVID MURPHY: We might need
3 some help or something.
4 MR. McHALE: Sarah, when did you
5 send in the left turn analysis to PennDOT?
6 MS. SARAH BUE-MORRIS: It went
7 in today.
8 MR. McHALE: Can we get a copy
9 to the township, please?
10 MS. SARAH BUE-MORRIS:
11 Certainly.
12 MR. ARMSTRONG: You just want to
13 keep going?
14 The next one is the Maple Road
15 access utility easement. I've been in contact with
16 Mr. Blake, Mr. Murphy. We are working through it.
17 There is one more --
18 MR. DAVID MURPHY: You know,
19 that road is irrelevant, though.
20 MR. ARMSTRONG: That's what I
21 was trying to -- I spoke with Mr. Blake today and I
22 wanted to confirm that it's not your intention or
23 your purpose to use Maple Road as a primary access
24 to your property?
25 MR. DAVID MURPHY: No.
11
1 MR. ARMSTRONG: It's mainly --
2 it's my understanding it's almost like a secondary
3 emergency accessway to your property.
4 MR. DAVID MURPHY: Some car sets
5 on fire in our driveway, people can go out that way
6 or emergency vehicles could come in that way, for
7 which ever reason. It's not -- you know, do I mind
8 if we could use it somehow? Anything that could
9 help keep St. Lukes here, I would like to see it,
10 but it would be a temporary thing. Nobody is going
11 to come to me if they have to drive down Maple
12 Road.
13 MR. ARMSTRONG: But I did talk
14 to Mr. Blake. It's my understanding that it will
15 be a secondary emergency access way. And your
16 primary access will be directly onto 940 by way of
17 the HOP that we are waiting to see.
18 MR. DAVID MURPHY: You are
19 correct. If there is a way -- if you could --
20 anything that would help keep St. Luke's on the
21 table. That's my biggest concern, St. Luke's. We
22 are bouncing from physical therapy to specialists
23 to possibly imaging coming in there. All St.
24 Luke's. They are a multi billion dollar company.
25 They pull off the table, it's sliding. This area
12
1 is going without and they are going to continue
2 making the 50 mile round trip, gasoline and danger
3 involved on 115. Just so we are aware of that.
4 MR. ARMSTRONG: Mr. Blake and I,
5 we have a draft easement. The only thing we are
6 going to add to that now is just that we are
7 confirming that it's not going to be used as a
8 primary access. It's going to be used as a
9 secondary.
10 MR. DAVID MURPHY: I would be
11 asking if there is a temporary possibility to keep
12 St. Luke's in the game, but that's up to the board,
13 not up to me.
14 MR. ARMSTRONG: Even if -- you
15 would need an HOP if you were going to make that
16 your primary anyway. So you'd be waiting for
17 PennDOT regardless.
18 MR. DAVID MURPHY: Yes. I don't
19 know though.
20 MR. ARMSTRONG: Financial
21 security. It's my understanding that you submitted
22 an estimate for --
23 MS. SARAH BUE-MORRIS: Yes. Bob
24 recommended at the last meeting that it was okay
25 and should be approved and the amount will be
13
1 posted.
2 MR. McHALE: I think you added
3 some split rail fencing that wasn't included, I
4 don't think, in that last estimate.
5 MS. SARAH BUE-MORRIS: You want
6 the split rail fence in that?
7 MR. McHALE: Any outstanding
8 land development items should be included in that.
9 MS. SARAH BUE-MORRIS: Okay.
10 I'll address that.
11 The developer's agreement, I
12 believe we are waiting for --
13 MR. ARMSTRONG: Just because
14 there is an extensive list of improvements that are
15 going to need to get done, whatever date the
16 planning commission recommends tonight, by that
17 date, that's going to have to be in there.
18 Probably a little provision about that HOP will be
19 in there. Financial security provision will be in
20 there and other general provisions.
21 It's my understanding that the
22 project is 80, 85 percent done, but there is still
23 that 20, 15 percent that needs to be accounted for.
24 It's just going to make sense to include some kind
25 of development agreement.
14
1 MS. SARAH BUE-MORRIS: Right.
2 We did submit a waiver request for Sections
3 135-15.A and 135-17.L and M. Those are things
4 within 500 feet.
5 MR. ARMSTRONG: Does the
6 planning commission want to talk about those
7 waivers? What are they for, do you know?
8 MS. SARAH BUE-MORRIS: Manmade
9 items. All the driveways and existing roads within
10 500 feet, although I do believe that we pretty well
11 showed everything within 500 feet, because you
12 basically have Pine and you've got Maple and that's
13 pretty much everything within 500 feet. We then,
14 you know, use a little area map that shows you all
15 the houses and businesses by all the little dots,
16 so, you know.
17 MR. McHALE: You listed the
18 waivers on the title sheet?
19 MS. SARAH BUE-MORRIS: Yes, they
20 are listed on the title sheet. We did add the
21 latest waiver into the note as well.
22 MR. MILLER: How about the
23 stormwater ordinance waiver?
24 MR. McHALE: That's listed on
25 the drawing. There was a letter submitted to the
15
1 township requesting that.
2 That's Section 124.86.B.17.
3 MS. SARAH BUE-MORRIS: Yes.
4 MR. ARMSTRONG: And you added
5 the text fire lane?
6 MS. SARAH BUE-MORRIS: Yes.
7 MR. ARMSTRONG: Two locations.
8 MS. SARAH BUE-MORRIS: Yes.
9 MR. ARMSTRONG: You will execute
10 a stormwater maintenance agreement with the
11 township?
12 MS. SARAH BUE-MORRIS: Yes.
13 We've already submitted that to the client, I
14 think, the stormwater agreement.
15 MR. DAVID MURPHY: I have done
16 so many things.
17 MR. ARMSTRONG: But you have it?
18 You're in the process of executing it?
19 MS. SARAH BUE-MORRIS: We have
20 it. We are in the process of getting it signed.
21 MR. ARMSTRONG: Did you provide
22 the PennDOT approval for No. 6 on his letter, 6 of
23 land development.
24 MS. SARAH BUE-MORRIS: I have a
25 different letter.
16
1 MR. ARMSTRONG: The letter I'm
2 on is February 16, 2008.
3 MS. SARAH BUE-MORRIS: Yes. I'm
4 on my February 20th letter.
5 MR. ARMSTRONG: Just so you
6 know --
7 MS. SARAH BUE-MORRIS: I have
8 it.
9 MR. ARMSTRONG: -- I think it's
10 page 3 of that letter, No. 6, requiring you to
11 provide a copy of the PennDOT approval.
12 MS. SARAH BUE-MORRIS: Yes.
13 Yes. We'll do that. As soon as it's obtained,
14 we'll provide a copy.
15 MR. ARMSTRONG: You did -- I
16 have also been informed that you've included
17 additional fencing on that plan pursuant to that
18 No. 4 under land development, on the review letter.
19 MS. SARAH BUE-MORRIS: Yes. We
20 are using split rail fencing with wire mesh,
21 similar to what we provided. They are identical to
22 what we provided on other projects to the township.
23 The split rail looks nicer.
24 MR. ARMSTRONG: Can you show the
25 commission where the fencing is and where the
17
1 bolders are?
2 MS. SARAH BUE-MORRIS: The
3 bolders run right here. And then the fence picks
4 up right there and comes around, comes down here.
5 The gate is right here. It's a five foot wide
6 gate. So that the whole area will be enclosed with
7 either bolders with bushes in between them or a
8 fence.
9 MR. ARMSTRONG: Maybe if we want
10 to go back to -- you want to explain to the
11 commission the list of improvements you want to
12 hold off until the summer time, that will be the
13 subject of the financial security.
14 MS. SARAH BUE-MORRIS: Well, the
15 ones that I was thinking about would be the
16 landscaping, the wearing course should actually
17 probably go in in April, mid April. Then of course
18 the pavement markings and striping will go on
19 immediately.
20 MR. ARMSTRONG: After the
21 wearing course.
22 MS. SARAH BUE-MORRIS: After the
23 wearing course. By immediately, I mean, within,
24 you know, like 24, 48 hours.
25 The dumpster enclosures will
18
1 probably go in as soon as the whether breaks, as
2 well will the bollards, because the bollards
3 protect the building and the fencing. So you don't
4 want anybody going into the building until the
5 bollards are there. That will be done right away.
6 Obviously, since we have to do all the stormwater
7 items before you will give the C of O, those will
8 be done first. And they are written that way in
9 the sequence of construction.
10 MR. ARMSTRONG: When you say
11 first, when do you think that will be done?
12 MS. SARAH BUE-MORRIS: As soon
13 as they get the utilities moved. There is a
14 telephone pole in the way. It has to be relocated.
15 There is also a gasoline that has to be relocated.
16 MR. ARMSTRONG: Call UGI.
17 MS. SARAH BUE-MORRIS: Right.
18 So we can't -- we can't tell you exactly when all
19 that is going to take place because we have to wait
20 on the utility. Obviously, the installation of
21 signage is normally done towards the end. We want
22 pretty much everything else to be cleaned up and
23 gone before you start doing the signage and the
24 plan.
25 MS. HAASE: Sarah, what about
19
1 the stop sign?
2 MS. SARAH BUE-MORRIS: The stop
3 sign should be fixed as soon as the weather will
4 allow it to. It will be relocated as soon as
5 weather will allow it to be, because you don't want
6 to leave something like that go to the end. I'm
7 talking about the fire lane signs and that type of
8 thing. The stop sign will just be buying the new
9 pole and moving it. So he's got a sign.
10 MS. HAASE: There is not a sign
11 there currently.
12 MS. SARAH BUE-MORRIS: We may
13 not be talking about the same stop sign. Are we
14 talking about the one leaving the driveway? There
15 is one there. I have a picture of it bent over.
16 Somebody hit it and it fell over.
17 MS. HAASE: If it fell over then
18 it's not up.
19 MS. SARAH BUE-MORRIS: No, it's
20 not up. It fell over.
21 MR. DAVID MURPHY: No, it's
22 standing, it's just leaning.
23 MS. SARAH BUE-MORRIS: And it's
24 behind the pole. You can't see it. So that will
25 be fixed as soon as possible. It shouldn't be a
20
1 big item because he's already got the sign. All it
2 needs is a new pole.
3 MS. HAASE: I don't know
4 necessarily that that should be extended until
5 August 15th.
6 MS. SARAH BUE-MORRIS: Right.
7 I'm saying the stop sign will be done as soon as
8 the weather breaks. He doesn't want not to have a
9 stop sign. The other signs won't probably be done
10 until clean up period.
11 Obviously all the E and S
12 measures will be done before he starts breaking
13 ground, because you can't do anything until they
14 are in place. And the plugging of the 12 inch
15 culvert pipe has to be done before the grading is
16 done. The sequence of construction, which is on
17 Sheet C-6, has the steps for everything. It
18 doesn't denote however that the stop sign should be
19 taken care of soon. It just has all the signs
20 lumped together.
21 And I should also tell you that
22 the sequence of construction says that the
23 completion date is July. I just put August on the
24 rest of the stuff to give myself or give my clients
25 a little bit of leeway just in case something goes
21
1 wrong.
2 MR. ARMSTRONG: With all those
3 improvements, I think the latest I have heard was
4 April, right, the time frame?
5 MS. SARAH BUE-MORRIS: Probably,
6 yes.
7 MR. DAVID MURPHY: Which
8 improvements are we talking about? Wait a minute.
9 MS. SARAH BUE-MORRIS: The
10 placement of the asphalt can't start until mid
11 April.
12 MR. DAVID MURPHY: If we do that
13 in April, I assure you that parking lot will be
14 destroyed. It's very wet in the back. When I walk
15 on it, it's soggy. When vehicles drive on it, it's
16 soggy. I would ask, and Mark Sincavage can come
17 down, he's probably laid some black top in his time
18 and would know, if I do that in April, it will be
19 full of pot holes in a couple of years. If that's
20 what you want, I will do it. I won't fix the
21 potholes. That really should be done -- get the
22 soil very dry. With that clay soil, it just holds
23 too much moisture. You know, Bob, come down
24 tomorrow. Take a look. I'll show you the spots.
25 MR. McHALE: What we really need
22
1 is realistic time frames to get these things
2 accomplished. And that's what needs to be on the
3 drawing is to make sure that things get done in a
4 timely fashion. I think that's all anyone is
5 looking for, including the client or anyone that
6 wants to come in there.
7 MS. SARAH BUE-MORRIS: Can you
8 live with July?
9 MR. McHALE: Well, but you're
10 wanting the C of O earlier than July, correct?
11 MS. SARAH BUE-MORRIS: But he's
12 posting a bond so he can get the C of O. He will do
13 the stormwater stuff. We will get the HOP.
14 MR. McHALE: There are certain
15 items that have to be done before and with the HOP
16 because -- just like plugging the culvert out
17 front. If you plug the culvert out front and
18 PennDOT comes back in and they make a comment about
19 that, maybe you don't know what they want yet,
20 because you haven't gone through the process. I'm
21 saying exercise some caution as to how and what
22 items are completed.
23 MS. SARAH BUE-MORRIS: Right.
24 He's not going to do anything until he gets the
25 supervisors' approval, which is going to be mid
23
1 March. He gets signed plans. So guaranteed, even
2 if I get the HOP approval next week, we are still
3 not moving forward at his own risk.
4 MR. DAVID MURPHY: At our
5 community's risk. I can see that I'll have the HOP
6 before a lot of this. I just got done dealing with
7 these utilities. It doesn't go the way you think.
8 A week goes by so quickly, it turns into a month.
9 Everybody here can say whatever about the building,
10 it took so long, I started so far back when. Build
11 one and you will find out. I have been in business
12 a long time. I think I'll have the HOP first I
13 will bet. And that's what I'm asking, if I get the
14 HOP, the stormwater has to be handled. We are
15 talking about the 100 year storm. The stormwater
16 that's there now has handled everything since I've
17 been there. We probably had 50 year storms. You
18 know, I just don't want to lose St. Lukes. If the
19 community doesn't mind, you guys don't mind for the
20 community, I'm okay with it. I'm not losing money.
21 We are just losing St. Luke's who is a big hitter.
22 I think we want to keep them here. But I would say
23 if the HOP comes first, if you could work with us.
24 If not -- I own that place. I will not allow the
25 stormwater not to be done. I will not allow the
24
1 HOP not to be done. You know, it's my liability.
2 MR. ARMSTRONG: Of course you're
3 not going to let the HOP not be done and you're not
4 going to let the stormwater issue not be done
5 because you're not going to get a C of O without
6 them.
7 MR. DAVID MURPHY: It's
8 irrelevant. It's my place. I'm telling you how I
9 do things. Okay?
10 MR. ARMSTRONG: Okay. That's
11 fine.
12 MR. DAVID MURPHY: But I'm
13 saying if the HOP comes before anything else, if
14 they turn around next week and handed it, I would
15 ask, you know, the planning commission or the
16 supervisors, help me here. Let's keep this tenant
17 who is a big plus for this area and the tax base --
18 heck with the tax base, doesn't hurt my income,
19 heck with that, it's what they stand for, and
20 that's what I'm worried about. It's what they
21 stand for, that's what I'm worried about. March
22 16th is my deadline for them.
23 MR. ARMSTRONG: If you move
24 forward with getting everything done you need to
25 get done, there shouldn't --
25
1 MR. DAVID MURPHY: Come down and
2 help. It sounds so much easier.
3 MR. ARMSTRONG: Don't --
4 MS. SARAH BUE-MORRIS: We have
5 no control over the utility companies.
6 MR. DAVID MURPHY: I don't have
7 power against -- there is going to be -- all the
8 utilities, I just went through it. It didn't work
9 like you think it works. I don't call, they all
10 don't show up next week. One crew comes, they
11 can't do it, they need the supervisor. They come
12 back a week later. It becomes frustrating. I
13 don't know how quickly it will go. No one can call
14 it. I just did that with that pole. I don't know
15 how. I've already called them, talked to them. If
16 I don't hear from them in seven days, call them
17 back. There is a week. That's all I'm saying
18 about -- my whole thing for being here is St.
19 Luke's for the community, not my income, not your
20 tax base.
21 MR. ARMSTRONG: Okay. So the
22 commission, what's your pleasure with respect to
23 the timing for those improvements that she went
24 through listed on the plan? Right now they are
25 proposing to have it August 15th, '08. I think it
26
1 sounds like they'd be willing to move it up a
2 little bit.
3 MR. DAVID MURPHY: First off,
4 what's the problem with August? Seriously, what
5 would be the problem with August?
6 MR. VANDERVLIET: Is he posting
7 a bond for this?
8 MS. SARAH BUE-MORRIS: Yes.
9 MR. VANDERVLIET: What's the big
10 deal?
11 MS. HAASE: This is my problem,
12 okay. If we say August 15th -- this project has
13 been delayed and delayed and delayed and delayed.
14 MR. DAVID MURPHY: Wait a
15 minute. That's the point about this utility stuff.
16 It's easier said than done.
17 MS. HAASE: Dave, this whole
18 board, do you know how much experience they have in
19 development? Mr. McHale 20 years; Mr. Miller has
20 been with the township for many, many years. This
21 is not the first project that they've sat upon to
22 make a decision.
23 MR. DAVID MURPHY: It's my first
24 project.
25 MS. HAASE: I understand that
27
1 and we are trying to help you with it. We
2 understand --
3 MR. DAVID MURPHY: But I'm
4 giving you some realistic things I just dealt with.
5 MS. HAASE: This commission has
6 dealt with development for many, many years. My
7 problem is if we wait until August 15th and it
8 doesn't get done, we are going to go into September
9 and October and it will be the same situation
10 again, it's bad whether, we can't plant, we can't
11 put the top coat on, and it's going to be the same
12 situation.
13 MR. DAVID MURPHY: Sarah, let me
14 know. I have a reputation. If I say August 15th,
15 it's guaranteed. I never gave a completion date
16 here because I had no idea. But right now, this is
17 clean up stuff. August 15th for that black top and
18 stuff is very fair. You guys do what you want.
19 MS. HAASE: That's my concern.
20 MR. ARMSTRONG: Okay. What is
21 the pleasure of the commission on the time frame?
22 MR. MILLER: Anybody have a
23 problem?
24 MR. VANDERVLIET: No.
25 MR. MILLER: I don't have a
28
1 problem.
2 MR. VANDERVLIET: If it isn't
3 done, then I think there should be some fines or
4 something levied. I mean, the guy's between a rock
5 and a hard place right now. He had a contractor
6 that wasn't worth the salt, if I remember
7 correctly. Isn't this one of the problems?
8 MS. HAASE: He's the contractor.
9 He's the general contractor.
10 MR. VANDERVLIET: He's the
11 general.
12 MS. HAASE: He's the general
13 contractor.
14 MS. SARAH BUE-MORRIS: He's
15 hiring subs.
16 MR. VANDERVLIET: All right.
17 Take it back.
18 MR. BAXTER: I was going to say,
19 if we agree to the August 15th deadline, somehow --
20 MR. DAVID MURPHY: I apologize.
21 I needed air.
22 MR. McHALE: But I think we've
23 also heard that most of these items can be in by
24 June 15, June 30th.
25 MR. BAXTER: It shouldn't really
29
1 be a problem.
2 MR. MILLER: August.
3 MR. BAXTER: There should be no
4 excuse. If they can be done by June or July, there
5 should be no excuse if they are not done in August.
6 MRS. LAMBERTON: So if it's not
7 done in August, what happens?
8 MR. MILLER: Whatever normal
9 procedures would be at that point. I don't know.
10 What are the normal procedures?
11 MR. DAVID MURPHY: I don't even
12 see where this is an argument.
13 MR. MILLER: Well, the township
14 has to protect itself, just like you have to
15 protect yourself.
16 MR. DAVID MURPHY: Okay. Well,
17 June 15. I'll put the blacktop in next month if
18 they open the plant. I just assure you, in a few
19 years it's not going to look too good.
20 MR. BAXTER: I don't think
21 anybody is trying to push this to happen faster, to
22 rush it, to sacrifice the quality. It's a stretch
23 out to go to August 15th, but it seems that we are
24 willing to do that, given that seems to be an
25 outside time frame.
30
1 MR. DAVID MURPHY: I think it's
2 an outside time frame.
3 MR. BAXTER: So if it's an
4 outside time frame, it should be a really hard and
5 fast deadline. We don't want to see somebody
6 saying on August 15th, oh, gee, we had another
7 delay.
8 MR. DAVID MURPHY: Well, here's
9 the flip side to this. We get good rains coming
10 and that ground doesn't settle right -- you guys
11 have built before. You guys have been through
12 this. You know better than I. They know when we
13 blacktopped for the last -- 10 years ago, that the
14 location towards where that detention pond is, was
15 soggy. I could not let vehicle on for 30 days.
16 After that it was still soggy. And this was in the
17 summer. So if we get rains going in, how do you
18 know? How do you know if April or May will be good
19 for blacktopping for that clay soil? You know,
20 really. I think somewhere in there is fair to go
21 out that far. I don't want it to go out that far.
22 I want this done, wrapped up, put behind me. But I
23 can't totally guarantee the weather or you know,
24 any factor.
25 MR. BAXTER: But if we go out to
31
1 August 15th, that should allow for plenty of time.
2 MR. DAVID MURPHY: Absolutely.
3 MR. BAXTER: That's what I'm
4 saying. If we go to August 15th, that should be no
5 excuse that things are not done. I don't care what
6 the weather has been, there's got to be time in
7 there to be able to accomplish it.
8 MR. DAVID MURPHY: Absolutely.
9 MR. VANDERVLIET: What kind of
10 base are you calling for in those wet areas?
11 MS. SARAH BUE-MORRIS: The base
12 is already down. He his going to --
13 MR. VANDERVLIET: That isn't
14 what I asked you. I said what are you calling for?
15 You're calling for leaving it alone and just paving
16 over what's there?
17 MS. SARAH BUE-MORRIS: No
18 because he has to do a leveling course, which is
19 basically an addition to the base.
20 MR. VANDERVLIET: What you're
21 saying is you're leaving it alone. You're not
22 touching the base.
23 MS. SARAH BUE-MORRIS: No.
24 Pretty much, yes.
25 MR. VANDERVLIET: If you've got
32
1 a bad spot there and what he says is true, to get
2 it done, then change the base.
3 MS. SARAH BUE-MORRIS: He
4 already put in a new base and put in additional --
5 MR. DAVID MURPHY: Are we
6 talking about the blacktop?
7 MR. McHALE: What it appears is
8 that the subgrade was probably not stabilized
9 properly before the subbase was put down. And now
10 they are living with the consequences of that
11 construction.
12 MR. VANDERVLIET: Stabilize it.
13 MR. DAVID MURPHY: We pounded
14 it, though. We put in umpteen tons. Darwin Keiper
15 will tell you, we put it in. I had my neighbor's
16 roller, who is blacktopper, there probably 30 days
17 before we blacktopped it. Everyday rolled. We
18 brought in stone and rolled and I punched it in.
19 MS. SARAH BUE-MORRIS: Didn't
20 you mill the old pavement off and then put in an
21 additional base where the old parking lot was?
22 MR. DAVID MURPHY: The old
23 parking lot is actually fine. That's solid. Right
24 now you could drive a tractor trailer on there, but
25 there were spots that are not up to that.
33
1 Especially the edges. I personally did it. I
2 personally beat it in everyday. So I don't know
3 how else you would have done it. We dug it, we put
4 stone in, you know, it's just that there is water
5 seeps coming out all over. It's just the nature of
6 that whole top that it's on. I have a farm. I
7 have similar problems on my farm. Water just seeps
8 out. It seeps out through all of that. It's not
9 running down deep enough. If you look, there is a
10 slope from the new building to the old building.
11 It just creeps out there. That's the nature of the
12 beast. I guess if I went down three feet, maybe I
13 would have stopped at the two feet, I don't know,
14 but I know I personally -- this is my place. I
15 want it right. That's all I can tell you. I kept
16 my place so far very nice.
17 MR. VANDERVLIET: Why not tie
18 the paving to a fixed date and the other stuff
19 June. If this is what he needs, no water there, a
20 good dry time, everything else has to be done by
21 June and the paving has to be done in August.
22 MR. DAVID MURPHY: It's
23 reasonable, unless there is something that I can't
24 think of that paving came first. I don't think
25 there is. I'm good, unless there is something that
34
1 paving comes first, like line painting. Obviously
2 I can't paint the lines until the blacktop is in.
3 MR. VANDERVLIET: That's part of
4 paving. That helps. That nails it down a little
5 bit.
6 MR. DAVID MURPHY: Yes, it does.
7 It's bonded. Marked and
8 blacktop it.
9 MR. ARMSTRONG: Just to clarify,
10 what I'm hearing is the improvements listed on the
11 plan to be completed, all those improvements by
12 June something of 2008 and --
13 MR. MILLER: Got a date? June
14 1st?
15 MR. VANDERVLIET: June 1st.
16 MS. SARAH BUE-MORRIS: How about
17 June 15th?
18 MR. VANDERVLIET: How about June
19 1st?
20 MR. DAVID MURPHY: Weather
21 provided?
22 MR. VANDERVLIET: No. How about
23 June 1st.
24 MR. DAVID MURPHY: For
25 blacktopping?
35
1 MS. SARAH BUE-MORRIS: I'm a
2 little concerned --
3 MR. VANDERVLIET: For
4 everything, with the exception of the blacktopping.
5 MR. DAVID MURPHY: Absolutely.
6 MR. ARMSTRONG: Repainting of
7 the stripes, August --
8 MR. DAVID MURPHY: If it's
9 pertaining to the -- I'm not looking at the whole
10 list now, but if it doesn't pertain to -- like I'm
11 thinking the stop signs that go in, we just redrive
12 them in afterwards. That's irrelevant. But what
13 you're saying is very good.
14 MR. VANDERVLIET: First of June
15 for everything with the exception of the blacktop
16 and what is associated with it and can't be done
17 until it's down.
18 MR. DAVID MURPHY: Right. Yep.
19 MS. SARAH BUE-MORRIS: Okay.
20 And that will be done by August 15th?
21 MR. DAVID MURPHY: Better be
22 done by June.
23 MS. SARAH BUE-MORRIS: No, no.
24 The pavement.
25 MR. DAVID MURPHY: Even the
36
1 pavement better, if I have my way.
2 MR. ARMSTRONG: Okay. So the
3 blacktop and the improvements, that you can't do
4 until you do the blacktop, which is August 15th.
5 All the other improvements, stormwater --
6 MR. DAVID MURPHY: June is
7 plenty enough time.
8 MR. ARMSTRONG: Plugging of the
9 culvert, bollards, dumpster, all that other stuff
10 on your -- by June 1st.
11 MR. VANDERVLIET: You can put
12 the fence up with sleeves in the ground and then
13 when they have to pave, they can take up the fence
14 and just put it back in and it's not a total
15 reconstruction.
16 MR. MILLER: What is your
17 situation with St. Luke's?
18 MR. DAVID MURPHY: March 16th
19 they need an inspection.
20 MR. MILLER: When?
21 MR. DAVID MURPHY: March 16 they
22 need to inspect. Then they want to open within two
23 weeks after that. It's very shaky.
24 MR. ARMSTRONG: I don't know if
25 you're going to get that. You need HOP and the
37
1 stormwater.
2 MR. DAVID MURPHY: The HOP, that
3 has to be.
4 MR. ARMSTRONG: So does the
5 stormwater.
6 MR. DAVID MURPHY: But the
7 stormwater, theoretically, what we are talking
8 about has worked to today. I am not putting that
9 off. That's going ASAP. But if the HOP fell on
10 our lap, all I would say is, geez, there is an
11 opportunity to keep St. Luke's. We have an HOP.
12 The stormwater has to be done, but I'm just simply
13 saying, to me, using comon sense --
14 MR. ARMSTRONG: I understand
15 your position, but I don't appreciate your using
16 whatever that relationship -- we don't know what
17 your relationship is with St. Luke's. But don't
18 use that as leverage to try to get approvals from
19 the township. Okay?
20 MR. DAVID MURPHY: That's fine.
21 MR. ARMSTRONG: Just so we all
22 understand.
23 MR. DAVID MURPHY: That's fine.
24 MR. ARMSTRONG: This commission
25 and the board of supervisors have to abide by their
38
1 ordinances and they have to go by their ordinances,
2 state regulations, everything that's required of
3 them when they are reviewing plans.
4 MR. DAVID MURPHY: Agreed.
5 MR. ARMSTRONG: Irregardless of
6 any outside relationship.
7 MS. SARAH BUE-MORRIS: So I'll
8 change the date on C-1 and clarify what is going to
9 be done. June 1st for everything.
10 MR. McHALE: You said there was
11 another date on your construction sequence that
12 needed to be modified.
13 MS. SARAH BUE-MORRIS: That will
14 be changed also. It will also have to be rewritten
15 to allow the paving to come last.
16 MR. ARMSTRONG: After going
17 through the letter, it looks like everything will
18 be a will comply with Bob McHale's February 16,
19 2008 letter?
20 MS. SARAH BUE-MORRIS: Yes.
21 The deposit for $800 was paid
22 tonight. We gave a check to Bob.
23 MR. McHALE: I provided that to
24 Phyllis, which will get to the township's
25 appropriate personnel tomorrow.
39
1 MR. ARMSTRONG: I do know that
2 you want to go before the board of supervisors'
3 March meeting.
4 MS. SARAH BUE-MORRIS: Yes.
5 MR. ARMSTRONG: Do I understand
6 that correctly?
7 MS. SARAH BUE-MORRIS: Yes.
8 MR. ARMSTRONG: If you do not
9 have -- you're going to submit the traffic analysis
10 study to the township tomorrow?
11 MS. SARAH BUE-MORRIS: Yes.
12 MR. ARMSTRONG: If you do not
13 have the HOP -- I mean, I'm just thinking
14 logisticallywise, if it makes sense to go on their
15 agenda in March, if you don't have the HOP --
16 MS. SARAH BUE-MORRIS: It does,
17 because I can get the HOP at any date. I don't
18 want to wait until April -- and since it's an
19 outside agency, it's one of the few conditions that
20 the supervisors will give me.
21 MR. ARMSTRONG: Okay.
22 Any other questions or concerns
23 from the commission of the applicant?
24 MR. MILLER: Any concerns from
25 the board now? Otherwise, do I hear a motion?
40
1 MR. VANDERVLIET: Recap what we
2 said, Mr. Attorney, pretty much in a motion -- is
3 everything in here, except for the dates?
4 MR. BAXTER: I would make a
5 motion that we recommend that the board of
6 supervisors conditionally approve the land
7 development plan identified as Lands of Windy
8 Corners, Project No. 2007-028, subject to the
9 comments and requirements set forth in the township
10 engineer's review letter dated February 16th, 2008,
11 and further conditional on the following:
12 The applicant complete any and
13 all improvements listed on the applicant's latest
14 plans, with the exception of blacktopping and
15 related striping, prior to or on June 1st, 2008,
16 subject to the requisite financial security as
17 determined by the township engineer; and that all
18 blacktopping and striping following that be
19 completed no later than August 15th, 2008; that
20 completion of all stormwater management in
21 accordance with Chapter 124 of the township code;
22 that the applicant receive the requisite highway
23 occupancy permit from PennDOT for direct access
24 onto Route 940 prior to plan recordation and
25 providing proof of financial security with PennDOT
41
1 for the same or in the alternative provide
2 appropriate financial security with the township;
3 the applicant not using Maple Road as the primary
4 ingress and egress and the applicant only using
5 said Maple Road as a secondary emergency access;
6 the applicant executing a development and financial
7 security agreement with the township in a form
8 acceptable to the township; the applicant executing
9 the applicable stormwater maintenance agreement;
10 the applicant notifying the township as soon as the
11 applicant receives the requisite HOP and providing
12 the township copy of the same; the applicant
13 executing an easement for the right to use Maple
14 Road in a form acceptable to the township; and,
15 further, move that we recommended the board of
16 supervisors grant the following requested waivers,
17 conditional on the applicant satisfying the
18 aforementioned conditions: SALDO Section 135-15.A
19 Subparagraph 15, SALDO Section 135-17.L, SALDO
20 Section 135-17.M and Section 124-86.B, Paragraph
21 17, of the stormwater ordinance.
22 MR. MILLER: We have a motion.
23 Do I hear a second?
24 MR. VANDERVLIET: Second.
25 MR. MILLER: Discussion? All in
42
1 favor, say aye.
2 MR. BAXTER: Aye.
3 MR. VANDERVLIET: Aye.
4 MRS. LAMBERTON: Aye.
5 MR. MILLER: Aye.
6 MS. SARAH BUE-MORRIS: Thank you
7 very much.
8 MR. MILLER: We have old
9 business. Do we need to work on these open
10 projects tonight, Pat?
11 MR. ARMSTRONG: Since it is a
12 public meeting, and it's been advertised canceling
13 your March meeting, you might as well just briefly
14 go through the open projects and table the ones
15 that need to be tabled.
16 MR. MILLER: Okay. Wee-Wons Day
17 Care extension. What's our requirement there?
18 MR. ARMSTRONG: We haven't
19 received -- I have not seen anything revised from
20 the applicant. We are coming up on a time
21 extension deadline in early April. Because you
22 cancelled your March meeting, you know, if we don't
23 get another time extension, we need to schedule a
24 special meeting in March. I don't think we need --
25 they haven't really been pushing it, so I don't see
43
1 them arguing with providing another time extension.
2 But in the event they don't provide one in the next
3 week or so, we may have to schedule a special
4 meeting in March to make a recommendation to the
5 board of supervisors.
6 MR. MILLER: And who will advise
7 us of that?
8 MR. ARMSTRONG: I'll be in
9 contact with Maureen from the township. There is
10 Wee Wons and there is also Lands of Elaine Brockett
11 and also Blakeslee subdivision. Actually no, not
12 Blakeslee Subdivision, L & B Partnership plans that
13 will all need extensions before your April meeting.
14 So if we don't get those, I'll be in contact with
15 the township. We'll schedule a special meeting. I
16 don't think there is a need to make a
17 recommendation tonight of denial, conditional upon
18 getting those, because I anticipate them providing
19 us with the required time extensions. So that's
20 the status of Wee Wons and a couple of other ones.
21 MR. MILLER: Wee Wons, Lands of
22 Elaine Brockett and L & B Partnership, they get
23 tabled, I would assume?
24 MR. ARMSTRONG: Yes. You can
25 table them.
44
1 MR. MILLER: Do I hear a motion
2 to table those three?
3 MR. VANDERVLIET: So moved.
4 MR. MILLER: Do I hear a second?
5 MRS. LAMBERTON: Second.
6 MR. MILLER: All in favor?
7 MR. VANDERVLIET: Aye.
8 MRS. LAMBERTON: Aye.
9 MR. BAXTER: Aye.
10 MR. MILLER: Aye.
11 Glorious Church.
12 MR. ARMSTRONG: Glorious Church,
13 we still have an open time extension from the
14 applicant. The applicant's attorney actually
15 requested to be on your March agenda to provide the
16 proposed zoning amendment, but because you
17 cancelled it, what I have done is I suggested that
18 he request to get on the March agenda for the board
19 of supervisors' meeting.
20 MR. MILLER: Do we table that?
21 MR. ARMSTRONG: I don't think
22 there is a need to really table those.
23 MR. MILLER: Next one is Brick
24 City.
25 MR. ARMSTRONG: Brick City, I
45
1 don't believe is a land development.
2 MS. HAASE: No, it's not.
3 MR. McHALE: They are in the
4 process of revising their stormwater management.
5 MR. MILLER: We don't need to
6 table that.
7 Arcadia Lot 110 and Lot 100.
8 MR. McHALE: We are in the
9 process of reviewing both of those applications.
10 MR. MILLER: No need to table or
11 do we table?
12 MR. ARMSTRONG: They were
13 accepted as final or complete plans. So you can,
14 if you like.
15 MR. MILLER: Do I hear a motion
16 to table Arcadia Lot 110 and Lot 100?
17 MR. BAXTER: So moved.
18 MR. MILLER: Is there a second?
19 MRS. LAMBERTON: Second.
20 MR. MILLER: All in favor?
21 MR. BAXTER: Aye.
22 MRS. LAMBERTON: Aye.
23 MR. VANDERVLIET: Aye.
24 MR. MILLER: Aye.
25 Okay. Any new business? I
46
1 guess not.
2 MR. ARMSTRONG: There is, I'm
3 sorry. One real quick thing. The flea market
4 ordinance is being advertised for the board of
5 supervisors to act upon in March. You're well
6 aware of it. It actually initiated at the
7 commission level. And when it went up to the board
8 of supervisors at the beginning for this month,
9 they didn't make any changes to it. They
10 advertised for adoption, but pursuant to the MPC,
11 if you've had a chance to look at it again, had any
12 further comments, now would be a time to discuss
13 it, but I think it's been kicked around the
14 commission a fairly long time.
15 MR. MILLER: Yes.
16 MR. ARMSTRONG: So if there is
17 no comments, there is nothing to act upon.
18 MR. MILLER: Okay. Everybody
19 happy with it?
20 MR. ARMSTRONG: Just basically a
21 reiteration of your recommendation.
22 MR. MILLER: Do we need that
23 recommendation tonight?
24 MR. ARMSTRONG: You can make
25 that recommendation.
47
1 MR. MILLER: Do I hear a motion
2 to recommend to the supervisors the adoption of the
3 flea market ordinance as presented to us?
4 MR. BAXTER: So moved.
5 MR. MILLER: Do I hear a second?
6 MR. VANDERVLIET: Second.
7 MR. MILLER: Discussion? All in
8 favor?
9 MR. BAXTER: Aye.
10 MR. VANDERVLIET: Aye.
11 MRS. LAMBERTON: Aye.
12 MR. MILLER: Aye. No public
13 comment, it looks like. Make a motion to adjourn.
14 MR. BAXTER: So moved.
15 MR. VANDERVLIET: Second.
16 MR. MILLER: All in favor?
17 MR. BAXTER: Aye.
18 MR. VANDERVLIET: Aye.
19 MRS. LAMBERTON: Aye.
20 MR. MILLER: Aye.
21 (Meeting adjourned at 8:07 p.m.)
22 ---
23
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48
1
2
3
4
5
6 I hereby certify that the
7 proceedings and evidence are contained fully and
8 accurately in the notes taken by me at the hearing
9 in the above matter, to the best of my ability; and
10 that the foregoing is a true and correct transcript
11 of the same.
12
13
14
15 JOSEPHINE HOLLMAN, C.R.
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